Mooney 201 landing speeds, instructors, blah blah blah

[Bill]

This all applies to a M20J:

OK, so our Mooney Service Center mechanic is also a CFII, multi-engine, ATP, etc., so I figure I'd fly with him on my first dual flight.

And, we go fly the airplane for a while, all well and good, and then on my first landing try, he has me coming in at 80kts, and I was high as well. Predictably, with moderate braking, we turn off in 3300ft. Second time around, 80kts again, not quite as high, light braking, 3300ft. Third time around, I say BS, and come in at 70kts, and dragging it in a little at the end, 3300ft no braking.

The POH calls for 71kts landing speed for normal landing, 65kts for a high performance landing. Ed G demonstrated landings for us using 78mph, so converted to knots would be 68kts, which splits the POH numbers.

Next time out, I'm going to take my local instructor, and try some landings in the 67-68kt range.

Downside is a page in the POH that shows dirty (gear down and full flaps) stall at various bank turns, and the at idle stall speed at 30 degrees is 59kts. Does having prop wash appreciably add to the stall speed of these planes? I wouldn't think so.

Ed G, if you read this, if we follow the "trim for 78mph in landing config befoer the numbers" and then fly the throttle to the runway, how close ARE we to stall in the turns? 10kts or so isn't a lot of margin.

Time to be really precise...

 

[poadeleted20]

Keep in mind that the book 71 knots is almost certainly based on landing at max gross weight. If it's just you and an instructor and partial fuel, cutting that back by 1 knot per 100 lb below max gross would be a pretty good approximation of the right speed based on reduced gross weight, so Ed's 68 knots might be just fine with a training load (which is probably what he had when he demo'd the plane).

And yes, partial power does reduce stall speed a bit, but you need to check all the numbers to see what's IAS and what's CAS, as the differences can be significant. If the book recommends a speed below the usual 1.3 Vs0, there's probably a good reason for it, and the Mooney's proclivity for floating with any hint of excess speed is probably it.

 

[Lance F]

I can't imagine any qualified Mooney pilot trying to land at 80 kts on short final. Maybe he thought your ASI was in mph .
The Mooney is not hard to land and isn't that intolerant of being 1 or 2 kts off.
Do some slow flight at altitude. Your J will not fall out of the sky at lower airspeeds.
I rarely touch down with anything but idle power.
At landing speeds CAS is a whopping 2 kts under IAS. Ya just can't read the ASI that close while you're in the flare. I recommend looking down the runway instead.

 

[texpilot]

It has been awhile but if I remember correctly, I used to be around 65-70 on short final in the M20J. I do recall that during my initial checkout in the plane that the CFI had me coming in way too fast. After ditching him, I was able to experiment and found that 65-70 was perfect and could get the plane stopped inside of 1000ft. I kind of miss flying the M20J. Fun.

 

[Bill]

I can't imagine any qualified Mooney pilot trying to land at 80 kts on short final. Maybe he thought your ASI was in mph .

I was thinking the same thing, even in a 172 80kts is waaaay too fast. That is why I said BS the third time around and came in at 70kts.

The Mooney is not hard to land and isn't that intolerant of being 1 or 2 kts off. Do some slow flight at altitude. Your J will not fall out of the sky at lower airspeeds.

That is my next plan of attack, go out with my own good ol' CFII, do lots of slow flight and stalls in landing config, then head back to the pattern.

 

[Ken Ibold]

That is my next plan of attack, go out with my own good ol' CFII, do lots of slow flight and stalls in landing config, then head back to the pattern.

The instructor who checked me out in my J just WOULD NOT do stalls in it. And he was a graduate of a school that used J's for advanced training and had several hundred hours in it. He would just say "avoid getting too slow."

So then when I did do stalls, I was expecting a demon ride, but it's not unlike any other prop single. Slow flight is a good thing to know.

And I'm sure someone has said this before, but if you porpoise, you can try to fix it after one bounce by adding a shot of power. If it bounces a second time, go around. The third will likely take out the prop and/or nose gear.

 

[KennyFlys]

So then when I did do stalls, I was expecting a demon ride, but it's not unlike any other prop single. Slow flight is a good thing to know.

Amen! It applies to all aircraft.

Why are so many CFIs resistant to this? I've gotten a kick out of sustained slow flight. It's a necessary skill for safe flight.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Amen! It applies to all aircraft.

Why are so many CFIs resistant to this? I've gotten a kick out of sustained slow flight. It's a necessary skill for safe flight.

I practice slow flight every t/o and landing, Kenny

 

[MauleSkinner]

Downside is a page in the POH that shows dirty (gear down and full flaps) stall at various bank turns, and the at idle stall speed at 30 degrees is 59kts. Does having prop wash appreciably add to the stall speed of these planes? I wouldn't think so.

Having exactly zero Mooney time, I'll just comment on the perceived "downside".

The other numbers you're using are basically "threshold" speeds. The proper comparison here would be the zero bank stall speed, probably somewhere in the low 50's (I'd do the math, but I'm lazy ). In which case, the "book" threshold speed is about 1.3 Vso.

If you're maneuvering, you'd want to add an appropriate amount to maintain roughly the same cushion. 1.3x59 knots would be about 77 knots for the turn from base to final (possibly where the instructors are getting the 80-knot figure from).

Depending upon how close you make your base leg, it may require some effort to bleed off the 10 knots between the two, but that would be the proper way to use these numbers, IMO.

Fly safe!

David

 

[nosehair]

In any airplane, try this:

To see what YOUR airplane and YOUR airspeed indicator shows, at your CURRENT weight, in CURRENT density air conditions, at a safe altitude, set up in landing configuration, and slowly slow down towards stall, pay close attention to the airspeed indicator, and at the moment of stall, note the actual airspeed reading.

Multiply that number by 1.2; that's your slowest safe short-field approach speed on that day at that weight.

Use 1.3 for a normal approach speed.

You will find that these speeds are usually much slower than book published speeds, but are very safe, when practiced. This is the way that speeds are determined when operating an old airplane with no such speeds in the Handbook.

It's also a safe practical way of determining the actual speed needed for the current weight, and takes all other factors, such as airspeed error, into account.

Also, be aware that the stall speeds listed for various banks are when you are holding a constant altitude during that bank. In other words, you are putting a G-Load on the airplane and effectively increasing the weight.

When you are making a descending turn, and you maintain a constant speed during the turn, you are relaxing elevator back-pressure, which does not increase the G-load, so there is no stall speed increase during a normal base to final turn. It is only when you get low and pull-back the elevator during the turn that the stall speed is increased.

The airplane cannot stall if you don't pull the elevator back. No matter what the bank angle is.

 

[Bill]

If you're maneuvering, you'd want to add an appropriate amount to maintain roughly the same cushion. 1.3x59 knots would be about 77 knots for the turn from base to final (possibly where the instructors are getting the 80-knot figure from).

Sounds reasonable.

Interesting thing is, Ed G demonstrated on the downwind, putting out gear and all flaps, and trimming for hands off flight at 78mph (67-68kts) before reaching the numbers. We then flew the airplane to the threashold using throttle alone, keeping the airspeed at 78mph all the way down, including turns.

Not only do I need to do slow flight and stalls, but do stalls in 30 degree turns to see where she really stalls.

 

[Bill]

Also, be aware that the stall speeds listed for various banks are when you are holding a constant altitude during that bank. In other words, you are putting a G-Load on the airplane and effectively increasing the weight.

When you are making a descending turn, and you maintain a constant speed during the turn, you are relaxing elevator back-pressure, which does not increase the G-load, so there is no stall speed increase during a normal base to final turn.

Duh, that makes good sense! Yup, decending turns.

 

[EdFred]

3300 feet? We were stopped way before then in Ed's Mooney at Gaston's without even trying.

 

[Bill]

3300 feet? We were stopped way before then in Ed's Mooney at Gaston's without even trying.

That is what I recall as well.

Just gotta go out and practice more...

 

[poadeleted20]

To see what YOUR airplane and YOUR airspeed indicator shows, at your CURRENT weight, in CURRENT density air conditions, at a safe altitude, set up in landing configuration, and slowly slow down towards stall, pay close attention to the airspeed indicator, and at the moment of stall, note the actual airspeed reading.

Multiply that number by 1.2; that's your slowest safe short-field approach speed on that day at that weight.

Use 1.3 for a normal approach speed.

While the idea is great, if you do exactly the above in a C-172, you'll bust your patootie (imagine flying a Skyhawk at 43 KIAS on approach). I'm sure nosehair meant to say that once you have the indicated stall speed in the landing configuration, you should correct the indicated airspeed reading to calibrated (using the chart/table in the POH), multiply that CAS figure by the appropriate factor, and then convert the result back to IAS for actual use in flight.

 

[Lance F]

While the idea is great, if you do exactly the above in a C-172, you'll bust your patootie (imagine flying a Skyhawk at 43 KIAS on approach). I'm sure nosehair meant to say that once you have the indicated stall speed in the landing configuration, you should correct the indicated airspeed reading to calibrated (using the chart/table in the POH), multiply that CAS figure by the appropriate factor, and then convert the result back to IAS for actual use in flight.

The Mooney must have a better static system than some other planes. With the Mooney M20J POH in front of me and looking at the Airspeed Calibration graph for flaps and gear down condition I get 72 kts as the 1.3*Vso IAS without going back and forth to the CAS. Correcting for CAS and then converting back I get 72.8 kts. This is for the flaps 33 deg power on condition. For 33 deg power off the difference is 0 kts.

 

[infotango]

I can't imagine any qualified Mooney pilot trying to land at 80 kts on short final. Maybe he thought your ASI was in mph .
The Mooney is not hard to land and isn't that intolerant of being 1 or 2 kts off.
Do some slow flight at altitude. Your J will not fall out of the sky at lower airspeeds.
I rarely touch down with anything but idle power.
At landing speeds CAS is a whopping 2 kts under IAS. Ya just can't read the ASI that close while you're in the flare. I recommend looking down the runway instead.

Just for the record, I'd like to add that Lance makes beautiful landings in his 201, even in gusty x-winds.

 

[jesse]

While the idea is great, if you do exactly the above in a C-172, you'll bust your patootie (imagine flying a Skyhawk at 43 KIAS on approach). I'm sure nosehair meant to say that once you have the indicated stall speed in the landing configuration, you should correct the indicated airspeed reading to calibrated (using the chart/table in the POH), multiply that CAS figure by the appropriate factor, and then convert the result back to IAS for actual use in flight.

I'm sure I've landed a C172 at 45 knots several times. I've seen slightly under 50 knots indicated on final before. I don't generally look at the airspeed indicator from 100 feet and down so I'm sure I was down to 45.

Of course, I'm a pretty small guy and I was solo. Don't expect the airplane to do anything but: 1.) Go down. or 2.) Go down faster in such a configuration.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm sure I've landed a C172 at 45 knots several times.

I have, too, but we're talking about approach speed, not touchdown, here. While I'm sure I could fly a C-172 at 43-45 KIAS on final as long as it wasn't bumpy or gusty, it would leave me zero margin. If I was power off, it would be sinking like a rock and there would be no way to flare it. If I was carrying power to maintain a reasonable glide path, it would fall out of the sky with a great resounding crash when the power was cut. If I just held power until touchdown (impact?) I suspect it would hit nosewheel first. Any way you look at it, it would be a very ugly arrival (I would not grace the result with the term "landing"). 1.15-1.3 Vs0 (depending on the situation) on final for me, thank you.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

The POH calls for 71kts landing speed for normal landing, 65kts for a high performance landing. Ed G demonstrated landings for us using 78mph, so converted to knots would be 68kts, which splits the POH numbers.
...
Ed G, if you read this, if we follow the "trim for 78mph in landing config befoer the numbers" and then fly the throttle to the runway, how close ARE we to stall in the turns? 10kts or so isn't a lot of margin.

Okay, a few footnotes that need to be understood. First, the M20J stall speed manual is in IAS (mph and knots). Second, the relative error between IAS stall speed and 1.3 Vso in an M20J is so small (near zero) as to be ignored (previoulsy mentioned in excellent manner). Third, when I flew with you folks at Gaston's we were flying way, way light. Fourth, we were going into Gaston's where the runway is reasonable length & grass (IOW, okay allowances but not the greatest braking forces) and where I'd really rather not explore the go-around. Fifth, with someone new to a Mooney the tendancy in turns is to allow the nose to tuck under, and when the nose tucks in a turn the Mooney's clean aerodynamics leads to a rapid airspeed build, so we were going to tend to fast rather than slow if we deviated from target at all. Finally, sixth point, as you mentioned, book short final "normal" speed is 81 mph (71 kts) and "maximum performance" speed is 75 mph (65 kts).

So, we were light and needed a somewhat "precise" landing with a Mooney novice at the controls--I padded things in my favor, shaved a few mph/kots speed for being several hundred pounds below gross, shaved a hair more for an expected tendancy to let the nose tuck in the turns, and gave you a 78 mph target. IOW, I ccould live with 80 or 82 mph on short final, but 90 would be problematic, so let's not go there.

As to how close to stall in the turns? If you didn't let the nose tuck we'd be 13 mph over stall at 20 degree bank (a reasonably agressive turn in the pattern). However, I haven't met the Mooney novice yet who didn't let the nose tuck and build 5-10 mph in the turn, so we were 20+ mph over stall at any given moment. Plenty. Really.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

3300 feet? We were stopped way before then in Ed's Mooney at Gaston's without even trying.

I don't remember if it was Bill or Kaye, or who, but while flying with someone at Mountain Home prior to returning to Gaston's I demonstrated that using 78 mph (light loading) we could make the first turn off at Mountain Home (~1000' of runway) with only a small amount of braking, which is consistent with book performance (book values are gross weight landing distance with max. braking effort).

 

[bbchien]

I can't imagine any qualified Mooney pilot trying to land at 80 kts on short final. Maybe he thought your ASI was in mph .
The Mooney is not hard to land and isn't that intolerant of being 1 or 2 kts off.
Do some slow flight at altitude. Your J will not fall out of the sky at lower airspeeds.
I rarely touch down with anything but idle power.
At landing speeds CAS is a whopping 2 kts under IAS. Ya just can't read the ASI that close while you're in the flare. I recommend looking down the runway instead.

80 knots....?!! That's a world of hurt or a very, very long float. 80 mph, YES.

Bill, remember that with 10 degrees angle of bank, there is about a 2mph increase in stall speed. That's ALL. Keep the turns shallow, or fly 90 mph until on final to set up 80. Keep it co-ordinated. Your fear is not a stall, they're a nonevent. Your fear is a spin.

1000 hours doing this at full gross and not even close to a problem.

 

[Bill]

I don't remember if it was Bill or Kaye, or who, but while flying with someone at Mountain Home prior to returning to Gaston's I demonstrated that using 78 mph (light loading) we could make the first turn off at Mountain Home (~1000' of runway) with only a small amount of braking, which is consistent with book performance (book values are gross weight landing distance with max. braking effort).

I believe that was us, it just seemed to be much easier flying with you than with this other guy. Anyway, he's fired, I'll get my normal instructor, and practice some things.

 

[Bill]

So, we were light and needed a somewhat "precise" landing with a Mooney novice at the controls--I padded things in my favor, shaved a few mph/kots speed for being several hundred pounds below gross, shaved a hair more for an expected tendancy to let the nose tuck in the turns, and gave you a 78 mph target. IOW, I ccould live with 80 or 82 mph on short final, but 90 would be problematic, so let's not go there.

OK, so my next flight (with my CFII) will be:

1. Slow flight in landing config, learn power settings that yield 71kts in level flight
2. Slow flight in landing config, learn power settings that yield 65kts in level flight
3. Slow flight at minimum controllable airspeed
4. Power off stalls, both straight ahead and 30 degree turns left/right
5. Power on stalls max perf in the following configurations:
   1. Takeoff flaps and gear down
   2. Takoff flaps and gear up
6. THEN go back to the pattern and try some landings.

 

[tonycondon]

sounds good to me Bill, see you at 6Y9!

 

[jesse]

I have, too, but we're talking about approach speed, not touchdown, here. While I'm sure I could fly a C-172 at 43-45 KIAS on final as long as it wasn't bumpy or gusty, it would leave me zero margin. If I was power off, it would be sinking like a rock and there would be no way to flare it. If I was carrying power to maintain a reasonable glide path, it would fall out of the sky with a great resounding crash when the power was cut. If I just held power until touchdown (impact?) I suspect it would hit nosewheel first. Any way you look at it, it would be a very ugly arrival (I would not grace the result with the term "landing"). 1.15-1.3 Vs0 (depending on the situation) on final for me, thank you.

Like I said. Don't expect it to do anything but go down, or go down faster.....

I'm not going to be flying the VASI's in such a configuration. Like you're saying..I would have to carry a crap ton of power to hold the glide slope.

I've found I can land awful slow in a light 172 and still have enough energy to flare.

Of course. I would personally not like to make every single landing like this because there is a reasonable chance that one day you might not have enough energy to flare at all...Or reduce your descent rate to a level that isn't gear/ass busting.

In some situations I make an approach with a *very* rapid rate of descent which I start to slow down as the ground comes towards me. Most of the time in this situation I have to push the nose down and wait for some airspeed before pulling again. I think this is where some people get caught with their pants down.

A lesson that should be taught to students. "Often, one must pull up to go down and push down to go up."

 

[bbchien]

OK, so my next flight (with my CFII) will be:

1. Slow flight in landing config, learn power settings that yield 71kts in level flight
2. Slow flight in landing config, learn power settings that yield 65kts in level flight

1. Yer gonna nail it...!

   [*]Slow flight at minimum controllable airspeed
   [*]Power off stalls, both straight ahead and 30 degree turns left/right
   [*]Power on stalls max perf in the following configurations:

   1. Takeoff flaps and gear down
   2. Takoff flaps and gear up

   [*]THEN go back to the pattern and try some landings.