Mom Sues Airport After Daughter Killed In Plane Crash

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inav8r

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Mike B.
Full story at WRTV Newschannel 6 website

The jist of the story is, dad, who is a student pilot, abducts his own daugher and kills himself and his daughter in his trainer. Mom has filed a lawsuit against "airport employees and others".

"The lawsuit filed in Lawrence Circuit Court claims that the girl's father, Eric Johnson, should not have been allowed to operate the airplane because he was a student pilot who "was not qualified and was not certified to start, taxi or to control an aircraft without a certified flight instructor being aboard at all times.""
 
I think this guy is son-of-a-***** for killing his daughter and I hope he rots in hell. But, the school and instructors are only at fault if they saw him attempting to take up a passenger and did nothing to stop him. I'm sorry for the mother's loss but this is not the right battle. Sadly, there may never be one for her to fight other than her own hatred for what was taken from her.
 
But now, due to a greedy lawyer looking at who has the most $$, the airport has to defend itself and develop procedures to avoid this in the future. Then other airports will adopt similar procedures in a risk management move.

Line 'em up and shoot every other one. The rest will get the message and start acting like responsible citizens instead of used car salesmen trying to make a quota.
 
Oh please! Greedy lawyer my patootie. Why isn't the mother Greedy? No one here has near enough facts to form ANY conclusions. Perhaps it is a BS suit perhaps its not. There is just to much unknown to start calling anyone greedy. Was the guy signed off to Solo? Why was he given the keys when his CFI was not even there? Perhaps he exhibited some warning signs perhaps not. There are to many variables.

As for the father I'm with Kenny he can rot in hell!!:mad:
 
But now, due to a greedy lawyer looking at who has the most $$, the airport has to defend itself and develop procedures to avoid this in the future. Then other airports will adopt similar procedures in a risk management move.
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Yep. More BS stuff for renters to have to go through just to rent an airplane. BTW, its the greedy mother that's the genesis of this case. No plaintiff, no case.
 
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Anthony said:
Yep. More BS stuff for renters to have to go through just to rent and airplane.
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I don't think they are all BS procedures. Anthony I have rented planes at places where.

1) The newbie at the desk didn't know me from Adam ( pun intended) and when I asked for the keys to N123X they just handed them over. No who are you or can I see an ID.

2) I was with a non-pilot friend or family member who for sure no one knew and were not seen with me by FBO employees. I'd send them to the deskwhile I was outside to get the keys to N123X and who ever was at the desk just handed them to the person.

All Post 9/11
 
I'd like to weigh in with those saying there just aren't many facts presented yet. When you start casting blame towards people when all you have is a news reporter's tale to go on, you are gong to lead a very stressful life. News folks gear stories to grab attention and to create controversy, not to settle things down.

It's a tragic event. There are a lot of rules that have been established in our society because a few people take advantage of situations; show little discipline or are dumb. As has been said, I can see more rules being put in place to address this situation which will make it more difficult on those doing nothing wrong and abridging another freedom.

Best,

Dave
 
AdamZ said:
Oh please! Greedy lawyer my patootie. Why isn't the mother Greedy? No one here has near enough facts to form ANY conclusions. Perhaps it is a BS suit perhaps its not. There is just to much unknown to start calling anyone greedy. Was the guy signed off to Solo? Why was he given the keys when his CFI was not even there? Perhaps he exhibited some warning signs perhaps not. There are to many variables.

As for the father I'm with Kenny he can rot in hell!!:mad:
Click to expand...

She IS greedy, and stupid....but dammit, lawyers ARE our defensive line on both sides of the courtroom. Why, for once, can a lawyer just look at a client and say "no...we are not going to do that" and every other lawyer in the area say the same thing?
 
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tdager said:
She IS greedy, and stupid....but dammit, lawyers OUR are defensive line on both sides of the courtroom. Why, for once, can a lawyer just look at a client and say "no...we are not going to do that" and every other lawyer in the area say the same thing?
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That's the problem. Lawyer A, B, C, and D all say, "Sorry, we won't take this case."

There's ALWAYS a Lawyer E.
 
Adam,

I haven't rented since pre 9/11 as I've had a plane longer than that, so I'm really out of the loop on rental procedures. When I was renting, you could schedule a plane, grab the keys after hours when nobody was around and just go. This was at LNS, a class D airport with commercial service. Can't imagine they do that now. Most other airports I rented from were similar.

I'm not saying that we can afford that any bozo can go into an FBO, grab the keys and go. IIRC, I had to know a security code to get into the FBO after hours at LNS.
 
I really hope she gets beat terribly in court. This is just as stupid as the cri-cri lawsuit. If you are going to sue someone, make sure that you are suing the right person for the right reason. This is like someone suing Jesse becase there was talk of spin training here, so they decided to try to teach themselves, and couldn't break the spin.
 
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Anthony said:
Adam,

I haven't rented since pre 9/11 as I've had a plane longer than that, so I'm really out of the loop on rental procedures. When I was renting, you could schedule a plane, grab the keys after hours when nobody was around and just go. This was at LNS, a class D airport with commercial service. Can't imagine they do that now. Most other airports I rented from were similar.

I'm not saying that we can afford that any bozo can go into an FBO, grab the keys and go. IIRC, I had to know a security code to get into the FBO after hours at LNS.
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When were you flying out of LNS?

(That's where I learned to fly -- School was bought out by Aero-Tech, IIRC)
 
dmccormack said:
When were you flying out of LNS?

(That's where I learned to fly -- School was bought out by Aero-Tech, IIRC)
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Got my ticket in 1994 at Airways when they used to run the flight school. This was way before they opened the pilot shop and maintence shop. Learned in a C-152. I used to live in Lancaster (Centerville area) then moved to Chester County. When were you there? My instructors name was Howe.
 
Two points,

1) I never rented where you could just walk in "unkown to the people working" and say Key for 123X please ang et in a plane and go.

2) I think I could have smuggled someone a solo flight prior to my PPL if I was so inclined.

3) I'm convinced that people who intend to kill themselves are difficult to stop. Terrorist or sicko.
 
RMCN172RG said:
Two points,

1) I never rented where you could just walk in "unkown to the people working" and say Key for 123X please ang et in a plane and go.
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Everywhere I rented they knew me. I had to fill out forms and be somewhat vetted by the staff prior to the first rental.

RMCN172RG said:
2) I think I could have smuggled someone a solo flight prior to my PPL if I was so inclined.
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I think I could have as well. At the very least I know I could have flow to another airport and picked up a pax.

RMCN172RG said:
3) I'm convinced that people who intend to kill themselves are difficult to stop. Terrorist or sicko.
Click to expand...
no argument
 
Anthony said:
Got my ticket in 1994 at Airways when they used to run the flight school. This was way before they opened the pilot shop and maintence shop. Learned in a C-152. I used to live in Lancaster (Centerville area) then moved to Chester County. When were you there? My instructors name was Howe.
Click to expand...


I earned my PP there in 2003 at the precursor to Aero-Tech (just can't remember the name!!!).

I was going to start lessons at Smoketown in the mid-90s but there wasn't a whole lot of energy, organization, or enthusiasm there at that time.

LNS was a great place to learn as a towered airport within easy range of busy Class B (PHI and BWI), a TRSA (MDT), and some really neat grass and short fields (Reigle and Farmer's Pride)..
 
Anthony said:
Yep. More BS stuff for renters to have to go through just to rent an airplane. BTW, its the greedy mother that's the genesis of this case. No plaintiff, no case.
Click to expand...

Exactly. No plaintif, no case.
Except, at least not without a high probability of 12 DFs and a DF judge that will rule for the "victim's loss because of negligence", even if represented pro se.

Why doesn't someone sue HER for not stopping him before he got out anywhere in the public when she should have seen possible unstability?
 
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LNS was a great place to learn as a towered airport within easy range of busy Class B (PHI and BWI), a TRSA (MDT), and some really neat grass and short fields (Reigle and Farmer's Pride)..
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Yes it was! I liked that it was Class D so I got used to talking to ATC very quickly. Since Smoketown was so close, you could also get practice at a non-towered field. I used to rent a 172 there as well after I got my PPL. Did my real soft field training at Keller Brothers and my Tiger was once based at the 1,900 ft. Reigle field and then Deck. Lots of nice little airports around there.

I think Airways rant the flight school before Aero-Tech, but there could have been another in between. The guy that ran Airways flight school now owns and runs the Airways pilot shop and maintenance shop. Small world!
 
dmccormack said:
I earned my PP there in 2003 at the precursor to Aero-Tech (just can't remember the name!!!).

Advantage was the place. Went bankrupt a couple of years ago, and Aerotech, formerly of Smoketown, took over the place.

Jim G
Click to expand...
 
Anthony said:
Yes it was! I liked that it was Class D so I got used to talking to ATC very quickly. Since Smoketown was so close, you could also get practice at a non-towered field. I used to rent a 172 there as well after I got my PPL. Did my real soft field training at Keller Brothers and my Tiger was once based at the 1,900 ft. Reigle field and then Deck. Lots of nice little airports around there.

I think Airways rant the flight school before Aero-Tech, but there could have been another in between. The guy that ran Airways flight school now owns and runs the Airways pilot shop and maintenance shop. Small world!
Click to expand...

I landed at Keller Bros during my checkride.

Reigle looks really small until you get in there a few times. I think I remember seeing a line of laundry really close on takeoff there....
 
Anthony said:
I think Airways ran the flight school before Aero-Tech, but there could have been another in between. The guy that ran Airways flight school now owns and runs the Airways pilot shop and maintenance shop. Small world!
Click to expand...

Even smaller.. back in the 80s when I worked as a HS teacher (read -- No Money) my wife helped out cleaning Airways each Saturday early AM. Her friend's husband was an A&P there and so they cleaned the place and split the $$.

A few weeks ago I was walking through that Lounge thinking, "We've come a long way!"
 
In the Navy, I had after-hours access to the flying club but that was after being cleared onto the base. In Colorado, I had after-hours (other than weekday working hours) access with a key to the flying club. But, that was after proving myself responsible and received a key. I don't think they would be doing this for less than a private pilot and certainly not for a non-paying member.

Several questions remain as to how his access to the plane was handled. Was he cleared for unlimited local solo flight? Was listed as such with the desk and given access accordingly? Was there any indication he was taking a passenger? What procedures were in place for a student to rent without a CFI present?

Ours are fairly lax but then the ladies at the front know everyone who rents here. If there's a question, someone is called. And, there is no after-hours access without a staff member.
 
Anthony said:
Yep. More BS stuff for renters to have to go through just to rent an airplane. BTW, its the greedy mother that's the genesis of this case. No plaintiff, no case.
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Anthony, I'm in total agreement...

But we still don't know the facts of the thing, so time will tell...
 
etsisk said:
Anthony, I'm in total agreement...

But we still don't know the facts of the thing, so time will tell...
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Don't know if that's a first or not Tom. :D

It just irks me that people need to use our legal system as a way to manage their grief and give them someone to blame. You can't be everywhere watching everything. Stupid people do stupid stuff. Nobody made that guy take the plane up illegaly with a passenger. Sue the dead guy!

Remember Gov. Carnahan's wife? :mad:
 
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Anthony said:
Don't know if that's a first or not Scott. :D

It just irks me that people need to use our legal system as a way to manage their grief and give them someone to blame. You can't be everywhere watching everything. Stupid people do stupid stuff. Nobody made that guy take the plane up illegaly with a passenger. Sue the dead guy!

Remember Gov. Carnahan's wife? :mad:
Click to expand...

I still say we need to find a way to sue the folks that file suit at the drop of a hat and manage to collect from entities that really had no liability as is likely the case here.
 
If I recall correctly, the student pilot began his training shortly after wife began divorce proceedings. Before he had been signed off for a solo, he took their child out to the airport instead of to school and then phoned the mother to say he would never let her have the child and then let the child on the phone to beg the mother to get her. Then he took the child to a plane, took off and crashed into the bedroom of his wife's mother's house while she was in it.

Sounds like premeditated murder, attempted murder, and suicide to me as well as blatant cruelty.

The flight school was negligent in allowing a student who had not yet soloed take the plane without an instructor and take a passenger. The school should have had a process (after 9/11) to make sure a pre-solo student does not take an airplane without an instructor.
 
AuntPeggy said:
The flight school was negligent in allowing a student who had not yet soloed take the plane without an instructor and take a passenger. The school should have had a process (after 9/11) to make sure a pre-solo student does not take an airplane without an instructor.
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You say "take the plane" and many of us are saying that when we trained (and I was post 9/11) that we did a LOT of preflights before the instructor arrived. We NEEDED the keys to get in. So now what, because ONE GUY does this, we are all supposed to waste instructor time and our money, so they can stand by watching us preflight?
 
AuntPeggy said:
The flight school was negligent in allowing a student who had not yet soloed take the plane without an instructor and take a passenger. The school should have had a process (after 9/11) to make sure a pre-solo student does not take an airplane without an instructor.
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What if the student owns an airplane?

Besides, who in the Flight School is qualified to determine that student X is allowed to have the keys and student Y should not?

I think about 90% of the "aviation security" nonsense is window dressing. The 10% improvement is replacing the MickeyD castoffs with adults in the screening lines.

Exceptions make bad law -- this is an exception.
 
AuntPeggy said:
If I recall correctly, the student pilot began his training shortly after wife began divorce proceedings. Before he had been signed off for a solo, he took their child out to the airport instead of to school and then phoned the mother to say he would never let her have the child and then let the child on the phone to beg the mother to get her. Then he took the child to a plane, took off and crashed into the bedroom of his wife's mother's house while she was in it.

Sounds like premeditated murder, attempted murder, and suicide to me as well as blatant cruelty.

The flight school was negligent in allowing a student who had not yet soloed take the plane without an instructor and take a passenger. The school should have had a process (after 9/11) to make sure a pre-solo student does not take an airplane without an instructor.
Click to expand...

It's a horrible, horrible thing that guy did and I can't possibly imagine the pain the mother has been through.

That said, I just can't see blaming the flight school, the plane owner or the instructor. You just can't think of and prepare for every possible bizarre thing a deranged person might do.

If the father (and I use that term loosely) did the same thing with a car, would the mother be suing the car maker and the car dealer and the bank that wrote the car loan? I suppose you could say, that's different, he had a drivers license and it was his car, but to me, that's just a technicality. If he had gone to the tallest building in town and done a swan dive off the roof, would she sue the building owner?

Do we even know if someone handed over the keys? Maybe the guy just hot wired the plane. We all know locks and keys are for honest people, and that GA aircraft are not very secure.


Trapper John
 
AuntPeggy said:
The flight school was negligent in allowing a student who had not yet soloed take the plane without an instructor and take a passenger. The school should have had a process (after 9/11) to make sure a pre-solo student does not take an airplane without an instructor.
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I've rented airplanes from a *lot* of different companies over the past couple years and I can say that it would have been simple for any person, pilot or not, to take their airplanes.

Perhaps its different on the east coast--but in the midwest including Minneapolis security no matter the class of the airport (D, C, etc) at a GA FBO is quite low..and should stay that way.

If I owned a flight school I would lock the keys up in a lock-box and only provide the lock-box key to qualified pilots. But I have yet to see anyone do so.

Of course, a determined person could still easily steal the airplane--at least you could say you tried.
 
lancefisher said:
I still say we need to find a way to sue the folks that file suit at the drop of a hat and manage to collect from entities that really had no liability as is likely the case here.
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I had an idea that (in my little fantasy world) would fix an awful lot of these problems: Plaintiffs get compensatory damages only, punitive damages go somewhere else (such as a related charity).
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I had an idea that (in my little fantasy world) would fix an awful lot of these problems: Plaintiffs get compensatory damages only, punitive damages go somewhere else (such as a related charity).
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Or, an escrow fund limited to use by the person actually damaged in the matter. The caveat... the recipient must be the actual victim and alive, not funds simply going into the hands of surviving family members short of children receiving an account that will pay for secondary education.

But, good luck trying to get something like that into play.
 
AuntPeggy said:
....snip....The flight school was negligent in allowing a student who had not yet soloed take the plane without an instructor and take a passenger. The school should have had a process (after 9/11) to make sure a pre-solo student does not take an airplane without an instructor.
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Prior to my first solo, I took both my wife and son for a ride while the instructor rode the right seat. That's all based on the individual instructor and the school's rules. The person on the desk could have fully believed this was the case. Here is a responsible adult student sharing the thrill of flight with their child.
Still, not enough information to process it. Sure the guy could have stolen the keys, hotwired the plane, or just convinced the desk person it was an experience to share with the instructor. The woman should be sure to include the guys estate as a defendant. That's the only one that should survive, not the school, desk jockey, or instructor.
 
AuntPeggy said:
The flight school was negligent in allowing a student who had not yet soloed take the plane without an instructor and take a passenger. The school should have had a process (after 9/11) to make sure a pre-solo student does not take an airplane without an instructor.
Click to expand...


Totally disagree. Your promoting more "Nanny State" nonsense regulation. If someone wants to steal a plane they can do it.
 
Before I'd soloed, I'd ask for (and get) the keys to an airplane without it being dispatched, and I'd sit in it and do drills for various emergencies, and run other checklists.

I think an operator has to exercise reasonable control over their airplanes, but somewhere we have to draw the line and say that if someone commits a crime (stealing an airplane, stealing a gun, stealing a car) in order to do something ELSE bad (killing themselves or killing someone else), the responsibility ends with the criminal, not with the owner.

We had a person in my area kill a few cops in a "suicide by cop" shootout a couple of years ago. That person stole the weapons he used in the crime. I don't think it's fair to hold the people he stole the weapons from as being responsible . Now if they'd GIVEN him the weapons they MIGHT have some liability if they would have reasonably known he was dangerous.

So I don't think the flight school should be liable unless there was a law or internal policy that precluded them from giving the student the keys, and they broke that law or policy.

The sad part is that insurers will probably now require these kinds of policies, and folks who used to be able to do the kind of practice I did won't be able to any more.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Exactly. No plaintif, no case.
Except, at least not without a high probability of 12 DFs and a DF judge that will rule for the "victim's loss because of negligence", even if represented pro se.

Why doesn't someone sue HER for not stopping him before he got out anywhere in the public when she should have seen possible unstability?
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Well, at the very least, if I were the owner of the FBO/school that owned the airplane, I would sue the estate for the value of the aircraft, but with insurance, there really is very little incentive to do so, except on the insurance company's part.
 
I find it interesting that at 90% of FBO's you can gain access to an airplane easier than you could gain access to a rental bicycle, moped - or for sure an automobile - at other businesses B)
 
lancefisher said:
I still say we need to find a way to sue the folks that file suit at the drop of a hat and manage to collect from entities that really had no liability as is likely the case here.
Click to expand...

The English litigation system apparently allows that the plaintiff has to pay the defendant's legal costs if the plaintiff doesn't win.

I like that idea. Lawyer's don't. But I do.
 
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