Modest Proposal -- Delete 14CFR61.51(e)(3)

[Ed Guthrie]

I read about 6 different aviation publications per month and have been reading most of them for several years, I have never seen a single article that says that we have a problem with the performance of CFI's nationwide. You are suggesting that we do in fact have some sort of major problem, and I was wondering where you are getting this information.

I'll let others chime in with their personal bad CFI experiences if they choose, but my opinion is based on 19 years of personally sampling the product. During those 19 years I've met and flown with some really, really great CFIs and I've met and flown with some really, really dismal ones.

As one example of my experiences, about 3 years ago I traveled to every FBO in this area and interviewed every CFI I could find who met the requirements to teach an initial CFI. I interviewed for personality match, etc., but I also asked every CFI one simple question:

What will we do during the first lesson, and what should I read, study, or do to prepare for that lesson?

Every single CFI I interviewed failed the test. Even after I moved from subtle to blunt, "Could I see the proposed course syllabus and the proposed first lesson plan", not one CFI offered me the training syllabus, the first lesson plan, nor did any CFI suggest any home study. Every one of them seemed surprised when I told them, "How do you propose to teach me to create and use a course syllabus and lesson plans if you yourself do not use them?"

Me experience, YMMV. Hopefully some others will chime in as well.

 

[Brian Austin]

I'll let others chime in with their personal bad CFI experiences if they choose, but my opinion is based on 19 years of personally sampling the product. During those 19 years I've met and flown with some really, really great CFIs and I've met and flown with some really, really dismal ones.

As one example of my experiences, about 3 years ago I traveled to every FBO in this area and interviewed every CFI I could find who met the requirements to teach an initial CFI. I interviewed for personality match, etc., but I also asked every CFI one simple question:

What will we do during the first lesson, and what should I read, study, or do to prepare for that lesson?

Every single CFI I interviewed failed the test. Even after I moved from subtle to blunt, "Could I see the proposed course syllabus and the proposed first lesson plan", not one CFI offered me the training syllabus, the first lesson plan, nor did any CFI suggest any home study. Every one of them seemed surprised when I told them, "How do you propose to teach me to create and use a course syllabus and lesson plans if you yourself do not use them?"

Me experience, YMMV. Hopefully some others will chime in as well.

My first CFI was similar to this. He'd kind of decide what we were going to do based on the weather and what the moons of Jupiter happened to be doing that day. I'd never know ahead of time to get a chance to study up on it.

My second CFI (the one that got me through the PPL checkride) ended up the complete opposite. We met after work to study, he had a plan of action for each flight (written on notecards that he would take out of his pocket during the flight to keep track of how we were doing) and would let me know what we would work on the next lesson (ground or flight). If something needed to be adjusted (ie I sucked at power-on stalls due to some bad anticipating), he'd tell me we were going to revisit those items.

I passed and it wouldn't have happened without him...

 

[poadeleted20]

The question of CFI quality has never to my knowledge been researched properly. There's no doubt it exists, given stuff like the discussion involving a student sent for his Pvt Practical Test not knowing the difference between FAA and Indiana aircraft registration certificates and Ed's example of instructors who don't know where to begin an instructor training course. Many of the issues involving individual instructors such as those raised by Ed are also not easily quantified. However, I've both seen the results of such weak instructors and met them myself. Frankly, I think it's like the old joke whose punchline is "we've already established what you are, and now we're just haggling over the price" -- there's no doubt in my mind that the problem exists, but we have no idea if it's 0.1%, 1%, or 10% of the instructor force. Further, there would be substantial barriers (starting with getting cooperation from independent instructors) to researching such issues. It would take a big FAA grant to find out the truth.

 

[Auburn_CFI]

I'll let others chime in with their personal bad CFI experiences if they choose, but my opinion is based on 19 years of personally sampling the product. During those 19 years I've met and flown with some really, really great CFIs and I've met and flown with some really, really dismal ones.

As one example of my experiences, about 3 years ago I traveled to every FBO in this area and interviewed every CFI I could find who met the requirements to teach an initial CFI. I interviewed for personality match, etc., but I also asked every CFI one simple question:

What will we do during the first lesson, and what should I read, study, or do to prepare for that lesson?

Every single CFI I interviewed failed the test. Even after I moved from subtle to blunt, "Could I see the proposed course syllabus and the proposed first lesson plan", not one CFI offered me the training syllabus, the first lesson plan, nor did any CFI suggest any home study. Every one of them seemed surprised when I told them, "How do you propose to teach me to create and use a course syllabus and lesson plans if you yourself do not use them?"

Me experience, YMMV. Hopefully some others will chime in as well.

One man's personal experience does not justify changing Federal Regulations which have been very successful for many years. My next question is this, were you already a CFI at this point or were you really looking to be trained to become a CFI? I do not train CFI's but my first lesson with a new student varies depending on the student, their background, their goals, etc. I do think that there are some bad instructors out there, no doubt about it. But your proposal does not change this, you are attempting to change people attitudes toward flight instruction. Keep in mind that our job is to train aviators to the point that they can complete a set of tasks within a given set of standards (PTS). Along the way we hope they learn good judgement and develop good habits. No one is contracted to their CFI (unless they attend a large flight school) and any individual pilot can go to a new CFI at any point if they feel they are not receiving adequate instruction. Just as you did, it can be done and it does happen, most bad instructors I know of eventually earned a reputation and were forced to find something else to do. For the record I use a syllabus and lesson plans. Of course I instruct in a part 141 environment so it is a little more restrictive.

 

[Brian Austin]

Keep in mind that our job is to train aviators to the point that they can complete a set of tasks within a given set of standards (PTS). Along the way we hope they learn good judgement and develop good habits.

And that's the problem, imo.

If we trained for good judgement, skill and good habits, the PTS wouldn't be a big deal. My second CFI concentrated heavily on the skills and judgement. I picked up his habits as a matter of course. The 2+ hour oral and 1.5 hour flight wasn't a big deal after dealing with him. His standards were tighter than the PTS's.

 

[Auburn_CFI]

And that's the problem, imo.

If we trained for good judgement, skill and good habits, the PTS wouldn't be a big deal. My second CFI concentrated heavily on the skills and judgement. I picked up his habits as a matter of course. The 2+ hour oral and 1.5 hour flight wasn't a big deal after dealing with him. His standards were tighter than the PTS's.

I understand what you are saying and maybe I was not clear. I concentrate heavily on safety and the importance to exercise good judgement while training the pilot in the areas prescribed by the PTS. Does that mean that every student is going to employ good judgement once they are on their own? I wish I could say yes. That is what I meant by saying we "hope" they learn some good judgement along the way. Still that was not the major point of my post.

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't think there's an issue over whether a 300-hour pilot/instructor can teach the maneuvers to PTS standards. I think the issue here is whether or not a 300-hour pilot/instructor has enough experience to teach to others good judgement in the full range of situations which may be faced. While I lack the data to say it's not possible, I am absolutely certain that many 300-hour pilot/instructors cannot. In addition, I have serious doubts as to whether the training system provides 300-hour CFI's the training and experience they need to really teach, not just talk themselves through the maneuvers. The nationwide 30% pass rate for initial CFI practical tests (yup, you read it right -- 70% of applicants fail their first time) is simultaneously encouraging (we're weeding 'em out) and discouraging (how many sneak through the second time on luck and learning only what they busted the first?).

 

[Ed Guthrie]

One man's personal experience does not justify changing Federal Regulations which have been very successful for many years.

How about we hold judgement on whether it is prudent or not to change FARs over this? After all, the FAA has changed FARs merely to ostensibly protect mouse ears from potential terrorists. FWIW, I posted my horror story and Len immediatey chimed in with "me too". Ron commented that there is a problem (he's seen it), but no one knows how large it really is (I agree). You yourself admit there are a few problem children in our midst. Perhaps fixing the problem bears some thought?

My next question is this, were you already a CFI at this point or were you really looking to be trained to become a CFI?

No, looking to become. However, I had taught students at the university level for 7 years prior to even thinking about being a CFI, which is a roundabout way of saying I wasn't a newcomer to the teaching process.

I do not train CFI's but my first lesson with a new student varies depending on the student, their background, their goals, etc.

Regardless of how you might flex the first ride, given that you are in a Part 141 program I bet you would be able to drop the syllabus/lesson plan into a student's hands if s/he said, "I would like to look at the course syllabus/first lesson plan." The CFIs I interviewed could not. Trust me on this, they had not all collectively decided that what the first time CFI student needed was a joy ride to the neighboring airport to sell him on the whole personal flight experience thing, and they therefore planned that as the first lesson. What they had all not so collectively but unanimously decided was not to plan at all.

Furthermore, I would have been satisfied if a CFI had said, "Ya know, I've never flown a Mooney, so my plan was to take you up in the Mooney and simply evaluate what you can do and what you can't do, and see if the plane has any areas that might cause a checkride problem. From that I intend to build your personal course syllabus tailored to you and the aircraft." I would have been happy with the fact that there was a plan--even if the plan was to evaluate and then formulate a final plan.

But there was no plan. Not even a plan to plan.

I do think that there are some bad instructors out there, no doubt about it.

I bet you would agree that the flight training world would be better served if those CFIs had chosen another field. I bet you would agree that the flight training world would be better served if they could be rapidly encouraged to choose another field. I bet you would agree that the flight training world would be better served if new arrivals of like ilk were discouraged from entering the field at all.

I would love to accomplish all of those. I don't wish to punish good instructors. I just wish to quite incentivizing the bad CFIs. If you have a better proposal put it forth.

But your proposal does not change this, you are attempting to change people attitudes toward flight instruction.

Actually, I would love to change people's attitudes toward flight instruction but my proposal really doesn't address that issue. My proposal would only dissuade some folks (the one's not motivated by the teaching aspect) from choosing flight instruction as there aviation field. IOW, my proposal would squeeze the door shut a bit, and it might put a foot in the butt of a few, but it really wouldn't change attitudes. At best, it would somewhat deselect based on attitude.

If you have a suggestion that would accomplish an attitude change within the current participants then I'm sure we are all ears here. Put it forth, please.

Keep in mind that our job is to train aviators to the point that they can complete a set of tasks within a given set of standards (PTS). Along the way we hope they learn good judgement and develop good habits. ]/QUOTE]

I suspect you are going to take some heat for these two sentences. First, the minimum standard PTS) is not a teaching goal--it is the minimum acceptable limit for the completed product. I severely doubt teaching to the PTS is true of your school, but any school teaching the PTS as the goal would, in my opinion, be part of the problem I wish to eliminate. Second, we can absolutely teach good habits, and while a bit more difficult, we should also strive to teach good judgement, although I admit that teaching good judgement and determining that someone has learned good judgement are indeed orders of magnitude different tasks. "Hope they learn" is not the way to go at all.

I suspect you know all this and the above was only a slip of the typewriter, but I suspect you will still take some heat all the same.

No one is contracted to their CFI (unless they attend a large flight school) and any individual pilot can go to a new CFI at any point if they feel they are not receiving adequate instruction.

The problem with this statement is that it assumes the student recognizes the correct/proper end goal. If they could do that, they would hardly be students, now would they?

Just as you did, it can be done and it does happen,

I was a commercial student and ~2000 hours into the fold before the definition of "good' and "bad" instructor really coalesced in my mind. Expecting a primary student to know the sometimes subtle difference is asking too much.

most bad instructors I know of eventually earned a reputation and were forced to find something else to do.

"Eventually" being the problem. When I took my CFI training I discovered one ultimate truth--we are all the compilation of every bad habit our collective CFIs held. As I went through the CFI course I found myself correcting my own bad habits as I learned to teach good habits. After awhile when a bad habit appeared I would name it, "Thank you, Bob." "Good job, Jeff." "That would be Nate."

For the record I use a syllabus and lesson plans. Of course I instruct in a part 141 environment so it is a little more restrictive.

Perhaps that is another answer. Part 141 until "x" hours dual given. Who knows. I hoped to spark a discussion of ideas. If you have some suggestions put them forth. However, I don't think I can agree with "There is no problem."

 

[Everskyward]

If you have a suggestion that would accomplish an attitude change within the current participants then I'm sure we are all ears here. Put it forth, please.

For those that are eventually thinking of working in a two-pilot environment, I think that people who have had at least some experience as an instructor or a teacher of some kind are *generally* better at being a captain flying with a newbie. Even if you are not giving flight instruction, per se, it's easier if you have had some experience explaining things about flying in a clear manner. It's also nice to have had some experience monitoring someone else's flying especially when they are new to the airplane. I noticed this almost from the day I started flying as part of a crew.

I don't remember having heard anyone mention this as a reason for becoming a CFI, but it's something I've thought about for a while.

 

[bbchien]

I don't think there's an issue over whether a 300-hour pilot/instructor can teach the maneuvers to PTS standards. I think the issue here is whether or not a 300-hour pilot/instructor has enough experience to teach to others good judgement in the full range of situations which may be faced. While I lack the data to say it's not possible, I am absolutely certain that many 300-hour pilot/instructors cannot. In addition, I have serious doubts as to whether the training system provides 300-hour CFI's the training and experience they need to really teach, not just talk themselves through the maneuvers.

Judgement? Whazzat? How is a pilot with 250 hours in the pattern and 50 XC going to acquire that?

 

[poadeleted20]

In keeping Ed's point about teaching, one of the standard recommendations I make is that any prospective CFI take a basic teaching at the local college, because probably the weakest area in CFI training programs is the part about how to teach. But while one can be trained to teach, one cannot learn in a few hours of classroom instruction the judgement and experience learned from a thousand hours of flying in all sorts of conditions.

 

[Ken Ibold]

No, I don't make that much, and I would not pay an instructor that much. Neither would lots of other people. Frankly, the job isn't worth that much, and it takes a heck of a self involved ego to think it is.

There are lots of instructors who make that much. Some do it by specializing in particular things, for instance Malibus or advanced avionics, and selling their services to people who want the best instruction. I know of one instructor who charged 35/hr five years ago. He was the best. I happily paid it. Ask Diana how much Greg Koontz charges. Rich Stowell is booked up for the next two years at something around that rate.

Maybe primary instruction isn't worth that under the current economic model, but to flatly say the job isn't worth that much misses the point that flight instruction encompasses a whole lot of different kinds of jobs.