Mission + Pilot = Which Aircraft?

jpsmall

jpsmall

Filing Flight Plan
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JPSmall
Howdy PoA'ers! I'm a long-time lurker here, and thought I'd poke my head in the door, say hello, and ask a question or two.

What aircraft would you recommend for the following:

Primary Mission: Average once-a-week business trip, distance of 600 nm, east of the Mississippi. Usually from the mid-atlantic to the southeastern US. Occasionally from the mid-atlantic to the midwest. One occupant with light luggage.

Secondary Mission: Use for family trips on weekends, etc. Two adults, two small children, plus luggage. Approximate total weight of 500 lbs.

Pilot Profile: Low-time pilot, 100 hours. Will obtain Instrument rating prior to start of travel and/or hire instructor as ride-along. Is located near commercial airports and able to use air carriers as back-up for weather, mechanical, and time constraints.

Budget: Still developing my budget. Operating cost is a bigger factor in the equation than acquisition cost, although both matter. Resale value (depreciation) is important as I would likely want to upgrade in 5 years as my experience increases.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions and comments.


EDIT: If you stumbled across this thread in search of similar information, here's a few other threads of interest I've found in my quest for knowledge:

1200 nm Every 2 wks. posted by mn_voyageur: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34183
What now? posted by QuixoteAg: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33712
Socata TB-20, thoughts? posted by PilotAlan: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32172

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34183
 
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jpsmall said:
Howdy PoA'ers! I'm a long-time lurker here, and thought I'd poke my head in the door, say hello, and ask a question or two.

What aircraft would you recommend for the following:

Primary Mission: Average once-a-week business trip, distance of 600 nm, east of the Mississippi. Usually from the mid-atlantic to the southeastern US. Occasionally from the mid-atlantic to the midwest. One occupant with light luggage.

Secondary Mission: Use for family trips on weekends, etc. Two adults, two small children, plus luggage. Approximate total weight of 500 lbs.

Pilot Profile: Low-time pilot, 100 hours. Will obtain Instrument rating prior to start of travel and/or hire instructor as ride-along. Is located near commercial airports and able to use air carriers as back-up for weather, mechanical, and time constraints.

Budget: Still developing my budget. Operating cost is a bigger factor in the equation than acquisition cost, although both matter. Resale value (depreciation) is important as I would likely want to upgrade in 5 years as my experience increases.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions and comments.
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Welcome!!

That's an aggressive mission, but you won't go wrong with a well-equipped Bonanza. :yesnod:

Whether the insurance premiums will be acceptable is a whole nuther matter altogether...
 
Beech guys will say: Bo
Piper guys will say: Comanche
Cessna guys will say: 182 or 182RG

Then everyone will chime in on why two of them suck, and you should pick the one they suggest.

I happen to fly a Comanche with tip tanks which makes a 600nm trip in ~4hrs, and will burn about 50gallons of fuel for the trip - leaving me around 3 hours of reserve fuel.
 
steingar said:
Cessna Citation Mustang.
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:rofl::rofl:

EdFred said:
Beech guys will say: Bo
Piper guys will say: Comanche
Cessna guys will say: 182 or 182RG

Then everyone will chime in on why two of them suck, and you should pick the one they suggest.

I happen to fly a Comanche with tip tanks which makes a 600nm trip in ~4hrs, and will burn about 50gallons of fuel for the trip.
Click to expand...

so will the 182RG, and probably the Bo too. All 3 airplanes are good for the mission.
 
tonycondon said:
:rofl::rofl:



so will the 182RG, and probably the Bo too. All 3 airplanes are good for the mission.
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Might as well look at the Mooney 201, also. Wouldn't be so good when the kids get bigger, but the OP showed willingness to upgrade later.


Trapper John
 
tonycondon said:
:rofl::rofl:



so will the 182RG, and probably the Bo too. All 3 airplanes are good for the mission.
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Which is why I listed it. Comanche is a little wider, Cessna is easier egress.
 
The 182RG and Bonanza are both good options. Insurance pre instrument rating might be difficult, but once you have it should be fine.

You note that your location is Philly. As I'm sure you're aware, that means that in the winter you have icing as a very real concern, and that will limit your dispatchability. After a couple hundred hours flying whatever plane you get, you may want to consider a FIKI twin to get better dispatchability, but that will depend on your budget.

There was a similar thread recently... now I can't remember where it was. Anyone else?
 
Trapper John said:
Might as well look at the Mooney 201, also. Wouldn't be so good when the kids get bigger, but the OP showed willingness to upgrade later.


Trapper John
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What's the full fuel payload on a 201?
 
tonycondon said:
cessna 182RG
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I 2nd this, even it if is a high wing.

Another choice is to get a PA28-235. Same basic type of transport at a fraction of the acquisition cost.

But do recognize that any single engine non-FIKI aircraft, even when you do get your IFR rating, will still have you sitting on the ground from time to time.
 
So, since everyone has the usuals already posted, what about say the Socata TB-20 Trinidad or Commander 114/115? Both are similar to some of the other planes, but yet no one ever mentions them.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
So, since everyone has the usuals already posted, what about say the Socata TB-20 Trinidad or Commander 114/115? Both are similar to some of the other planes, but yet no one ever mentions them.
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$$$$$$$$$$$.
 
oh there is a Bellanca Super Viking on ebay now. someone posted it on the purple board. buy it now for 25,500. that would probably fill the mission and the parts (for the wings at least) grow on trees
 
ScottM said:
Another choice is to get a PA28-235. Same basic type of transport at a fraction of the acquisition cost.
Click to expand...

The 235 is a very simple airplane, which would be a plus for a
relatively low-time pilot.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
You note that your location is Philly.
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And I'll note that it is 73 days away from the Wings fly in, where you can meet a number of Philly-based, and eastern US based, pilots who have gone through the same process you have. Eat barbecue, talk aviation, look at planes, commit random acts of aviation...

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33518

Join us!

Cheers,

-Andrew
Wings Fly-B-Que self-appointed evangelist
 
Is the purchase justification the use for business trips or is that a nice possibility?

600 nm from that area means you will have to make a weather related decision 70-80% of the time. That's too much distance in a very active weather area to not have some adverse weather somewhere on the route. This is compounded by the length of the trip which you did not mention.
 
RMCN172RG said:
Is the purchase justification the use for business trips or is that a nice possibility?

600 nm from that area means you will have to make a weather related decision 70-80% of the time. That's too much distance in a very active weather area to not have some adverse weather somewhere on the route. This is compounded by the length of the trip which you did not mention.
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Good point.

Minimum equipment on board should include XM Weather and StormScope.
 
Buy an older Malibu, hire a pilot to fly with you until you are insurable. My kids need the college education now.

Kevin
 
RMCN172RG said:
Is the purchase justification the use for business trips or is that a nice possibility?
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I'm not clear on this question: Would I be purchasing the airplane to use on business trips? Yes.

RMCN172RG said:
...This is compounded by the length of the trip which you did not mention.
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Likely one night stayover; though if possible, returning same day would be nice.

Some trips would require staying in the area for 4 days and hoping around to different small towns in that state or adjacent states. I'd recognize the risk of weather changing over that time period, forcing me to leave the plane and return via air carrier.
 
or a little flexibility in your travle schedule
 
EdFred said:
Beech guys will say: Bo
Piper guys will say: Comanche
Cessna guys will say: 182 or 182RG

Then everyone will chime in on why two of them suck, and you should pick the one they suggest.

I happen to fly a Comanche with tip tanks which makes a 600nm trip in ~4hrs, and will burn about 50gallons of fuel for the trip - leaving me around 3 hours of reserve fuel.
Click to expand...


First off, welcome to the board.

And Ed, You left out the Mooney guys!!
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Is it that bad? Is getting parts for the Commander's any harder than something that's been out of production for a similar amount of time?
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A friend on mine was looking at one. We went to the local IA and asked his impressions. After he quit laughing he listed the various parts which were no longer available or cost stupid money to buy.
 
jpsmall said:
I'm not clear on this question: Would I be purchasing the airplane to use on business trips? Yes.
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Would you buy the airplane if it cannot be used for business trips 60% of the time and when it can it costs more than commercial?

600 nm out and back same day is not a good plan. Do you want to be returning home, probably at night, at the end of a 10 to 12 hour day, at the end of a four to five hour flight depending on winds shooting an approach in less then beautiful weather?

For example almost every weekend I plan a Friday trip from PHN to MYR with a return Monday or Tuesday. Less than a couple of days on the ground doesn't make the ~4 hour flight each way a pleasant trip. I make the trip about once a year. Once again this weekend going down on Friday looks great, coming back after Saturday not so good, mountains + wet = scud running or ice. When I really want to go I book a flight a month in advance.
 
JP welcome to POA. I recogonize your avitar. Were you on the red (AOPA) board and do you fly out of PNE?

FWIW I agree that any of the planes mentioned above would suit your mission well

182
Comanche
Mooney 201
Bonanza

I do love the Comander and Trinnie but as Ed said above they are sooo much $$$$

I also second Andrew's suggestion that you come to the Wings FlyBQ:D
 
If it were me, I'd be looking at either a 182RG or Bonanza. Keep in mind that ice can cause you issues in the winter with either airplane.
 
When you get your budget, let me know. Without it, it's all just "what's my favorite plane" time. However, your kids will grow, and quickly (BTDT), so don't undersize the plane's payload; I wouldn't recommend even looking at anything with less than 180 HP and a 600-lb payload with full fuel. Also, beware of the insurance costs with a retractable at your level of experience -- probably a good $1000/year more than fixed gear.

To help with your budgeting, email me for a copy of my paper on the ownership costs of a typical 4-seat simple single. And that's email only, please -- no PM's, phone calls, carrier pigeons, or smoke signals.
 
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RMCN172RG said:
Would you buy the airplane if it cannot be used for business trips 60% of the time and when it can it costs more than commercial?
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If the average dispatch over a full year was only 40%, I would probably not buy the plane. Instead I would rent from FBO during good weather periods and fly commercial more often. I'd also consider a fractional ownership program.

RMCN172RG said:
600 nm out and back same day is not a good plan....
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Good points. Strike that from the request list. Perhaps the same day trips would be for shorter distances. My destination will vary for each trip, NC is only 300 nm or so.

To further clarify, my destinations would be mid-small towns in AL, GA, TN, SC, NC, IL, and OH. Commercial travel usually requires connections and sometimes significant driving after arrival.

Top of budget is about $150k acquisition cost, though less is better. I have some flexibility, and I am considering a partnership with another pilot whose use would be more weekend oriented.

I've put the Wings FlyBQue on my calendar! @Adam, I used to be active on the red boards during my private training a few years ago. I trained out of Wings, but the economy put my recreational flying on hold and I'm no longer current. I'm trying to evaluate a new career opportunity and it's increased travel demands. I love aviation and miss flying, so I'm playing the mental justification game.
 
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Where I've found the plane to shine, for me, is in trips South into Ohio. I can cover the state in 40 minutes to 2 hours of in air time then put in a four or five hour workday and be home for Dinner. By Car it takes me close to two hours to reach the border and Toledo.

However any place in the Lower Peninsula of MI it's more cost effective, relaible and timely to just Drive. If the flight time is more than three hours I can usually do better with Delta out of DTW because I can get close to most locations in comparable time.

For instance PHN to MYR ~600 NM

Leave home 0700
Arrive PHN 0720
Depart PHN 0750
*ARRIVE DTW 0815
Over SKY Sandusky OH 0830
*Waiting to board after TSA and Restroom break 0915
Leaving OH for WV JPU 0920-0930 depending on winds
*Boarding Door closed 0950
At BKW in the mountains 1000-1015
At PSK 1030-1050 Delta is above us ~25,000 feet
*Begin Descent into MYR 1100
*On the Grouind MYR 1135 +- 15
Begin Descent 1145-1200
On the Ground MYR 1215 +- 15

I've landed with the Delta return waiting for my arrival so they can take off. My wife thinks it's a lot easier with Delta, you get up and walk around after a little over an hour, restroom midway and your arrive earlier. :mad:
 
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Thanks for the additional info!

At 300nm range, it takes a lot of speed difference to make a big time difference, and the 15 knots or so you get from folding gear wouldn't justify to me the extra expense of retractable gear. Since I could own such, but chose a fixed-gear Grumman Tiger instead, my money is where my mouth is on that. Even with an occasional 600nm one-way trip, I can't justify the extra cost for myself, but YMMV.

All things considered, and given your low experience level, lack of previous ownerhsip experience, and (hopefully) plan to earn your IR in the plane, I'd recommend a simple, common, fixed gear single in the 180-200HP class. A used SR20 might come in at the top of your scale, but more likely we're talking Piper Archer, Cessna Cardinal (or 180HP-modified 172 -- more and more of them out there), or Grumman Tiger. The Beech Sundowner, while providing great comfort and cabin space, is so much slower than the others that I'd recommend leaving it out of the mix unless you really need the cabin volume (which given your load description, you don't). The Piper, Cessna, and Grumman options will all come in at about half your purchase budget, and cost pretty much the same to own and fly. The Cirrus will cost a bit more to operate, since the 6-cylinder engine is slightly more costly to maintain and insurance on the higher hull value will also be more, but other than the purchase price, you'll be in the same ballpark as the other three.

My suggestion is to go out and find copies of each type, look at them, sit in them, and fly them -- preferably with your wife along, as you want her to be happy with your choice, too, lest ye contract AIDS (Aviation-Induced Divorce Syndrome). If you need help finding a Grumman Tiger to look at, see http://www.aya.org or http://www.grumman.net.
 
RMCN172RG said:
Where I've found the plane to shine, for me, is in trips South into Ohio. I can cover the state in 40 minutes to 2 hours of in air time then put in a four or five hour workday and be home for Dinner. By Car it takes me close to two hours to reach the border and Toledo.

However any place in the Lower Peninsula of MI it's more cost effective, relaible and timely to just Drive. If the flight time is more than three hours I can usually do better with Delta out of DTW because I can get close to most locations in comparable time.

For instance PHN to MYR ~600 NM

Leave home 0700
Arrive PHN 0720
Depart PHN 0750
*ARRIVE DTW 0815
Over SKY Sandusky OH 0830
*Waiting to board after TSA and Restroom break 0915
Leaving OH for WV JPU 0920-0930 depending on winds
*Boarding Door closed 0950
At BKW in the mountains 1000-1015
At PSK 1030-1050 Delta is above us ~25,000 feet
*Begin Descent into MYR 1100
*On the Grouind MYR 1135 +- 15
Begin Descent 1145-1200
On the Ground MYR 1215 +- 15

I've landed with the Delta return waiting for my arrival so they can take off. My wife thinks it's a lot easier with Delta, you get up and walk around after a little over an hour, restroom midway and your arrive earlier. :mad:
Click to expand...

Not flying out of a hub, I can extend that beat the airline range to almost 1000 miles, and on my trip to Florida, I was cheaper in fuel oand oil in my plane than I would have been on NWA/Delta, and I was faster.
 
EdFred said:
Not flying out of a hub, I can extend that beat the airline range to almost 1000 miles, and on my trip to Florida, I was cheaper in fuel oand oil in my plane than I would have been on NWA/Delta, and I was faster.
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I know once you add connections with additional hour waits or a longer car ride. But from 9D9 to MYR using a direct flight plan today. That trip is 20 minutes longer than from PHN. I would add another hour of driving time or 2:15 for you to get to the DTW area. The time is still a push and cost will be also, that leaves selling 4:35 in the plane non-stop versus 2:15 in the car and 1:45 in the plane. :mad:

Of course if I left my wife home for a few trips I'd be single and the justification much easier.:arf:
 
RMCN172RG said:
I know once you add connections with additional hour waits or a longer car ride. But from 9D9 to MYR using a direct flight plan today. That trip is 20 minutes longer than from PHN. I would add another hour of driving time or 2:15 for you to get to the DTW area. The time is still a push and cost will be also, that leaves selling 4:35 in the plane non-stop versus 2:15 in the car and 1:45 in the plane. :mad:

Of course if I left my wife home for a few trips I'd be single and the justification much easier.:arf:
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2:30 to drive to DTW, then I gotta park, then I have to stand around for 90 minutes either in the TSA line, or on the other side of it, and I still haven't boarded, oh yeah, and I forgot about checking in any luggage I may have. I'm 3:45 in the Comanche to MYR from 9D9, and anyone leaving my house is probably getting ON the plane at DTW about the time I am landing at MYR if we left my house at the same time.
 
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