Missing US Marine Helicopter

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A US Marine helicopter went missing in southern CA. I can't post a link but here is some info:

"Five U.S. Marines are missing in California as crews search for a military helicopter over a mountainous region of the state.

Lt. Matthew Carpenter, a spokesperson for the San Diego County Sheriff’s office, said the search operation began around 1 a.m. local time Wednesday morning.


He could not identify how many Marines were on board, but several reports indicated five Marines were on the unidentified military helicopter.

Carpenter said around 10 a.m. that crews are still fanning Pine Valley in San Diego County to find the Marines, who were with Marine Corps Air Station Miramar. The Hill has reached out to the military base for comment.

Pine Valley is located in the Cuyamaca Mountains just east of San Diego in Southern California.

Carpenter described the search area as “very mountainy” and said weather was also complicating the efforts. Police are not flying helicopters but are sending ground teams out to search for the missing marines, he said.

The search team includes a multi-agency effort, with Border Patrol and the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection also assisting in the operation.

Heavy winter storms have been battering California, including San Diego County.


Marine Corps Air Station Miramar is home to the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing in San Diego." ~ The Hill
 
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I'm hoping for a good outcome, but a CH-53 going down in mountainous terrain and bad weather isn't going to touch down gently.

I believe "found" means they have eyes on the helicopter but the site hasn't been accessed, and "missing" crew indicates there is no evidence of movement at the site or sighting of the crew. It doesn't sound good.

:confused:
 
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My SIL lives in Pine Valley. They heard it flying overhead "very low" according to them early Wednesday AM. There was wind and heavy snow at the time, even though the actual forecast said nothing about snow - just rain.
 
RIP Marines…I wild hold my tongue on why this should not happen…but glad I support T2T.Org and Folds of Honor…hopefully others do also.
 
Warlock said:
RIP Marines…I wild hold my tongue on why this should not happen…but glad I support T2T.Org and Folds of Honor…hopefully others do also.
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Appreciate the links. Those look like legit and deserving charities. RIP to that crew, serving their country even to death.

You're among friends; any sanitized opinion on the mishap (other than political)? To me it looks like the unfortunately common cluster found in weather accidents at low altitude, but I don't know much other than news reports and we know how accurate and complete those are.
 
Piperonca said:
Appreciate the links. Those look like legit and deserving charities. RIP to that crew, serving their country even to death.

You're among friends; any sanitized opinion on the mishap (other than political)? To me it looks like the unfortunately common cluster found in weather accidents at low altitude, but I don't know much other than news reports and we know how accurate and complete those are.
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Edit: a crew of five from my helicopter platoon in Vietnam launched in weather they shouldn't have. Their names are on The Wall. Similar ethos in the Marines, maybe? But non-combat missions should have more restrictive risk criteria I would think.
 
So did it actually crash or was this just an unplanned landing and the Marines died from exposure?

They’ve had well documented issues in the past with maint and crew proficiency in the 53 but this sounds like typical get home itis. Been there done that. RIP.
 
I don’t believe the 53 is approved for icing either. Most likely VFR, NVGs, and trying to pick their way through the mountains in the middle of the night with rain / snow mix.
 
Sad Day for the Marines. RIP Warriors.
 
Like all losses, there are families bearing the unbearable. One of the crew chiefs was married just a month ago.

Rest easy, Marines.

cali-marines-killed-tout-020924-99cc06f944654cca89c594f764cd45b9.jpg
 
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Good points. I’m sure they have a mission briefing process in the Marines. I’m curious as to who approved the mission and the criteria that they used.

 
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I'm not sure what kind of training they were doing at Las Vegas/Creech, but I'll take a wild guess that the higher ups at Miramar wanted them back asap for whatever reason. The weather was bad, bad enough they should have stayed grounded.

The PIC was afraid to say....."no" to his bosses.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
I'm not sure what kind of training they were doing at Las Vegas/Creech, but I'll take a wild guess that the higher ups at Miramar wanted them back asap for whatever reason. The weather was bad, bad enough they should have stayed grounded.

The PIC was afraid to say....."no" to his bosses.
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Yeah, I sure hope there wasn’t command pressure involved but it is the Marines after all. Could be either that the crew was just anxious to get home and sleep in their own beds though. Sometimes you’re so sick of being in the field you don’t make sound wx decisions in getting home. Definitely been down that path before. “Come on sir we can make it back.” Or “well let’s just get airborne and see what it looks like.” An hour later we’re hopping over high tension power lines and scrapping the bases of the clouds muttering to my self, “this is nuts.” Call it machoism, over confidence or just naive but you tend to develop a feeling of being indestructible in the military. Learned a lot since then.
 
Like I said before, there’s a lot of value in the airborne divert. The gang-ho types can still launch, the weather is good at that point after all. Once you encounter unfavorable conditions, go to that field you’ve kept in the back pocket.


Even if the H-53 had a mechanical issue, or they had to use a personal credit card for lodging, or leaving two to ‘guard’ the helo, it pales in comparison to a fatal crash. They had Imperial & NAF El Centro right behind them.

Once the powers that be get by the ‘you’re where’ shock, they’d be glad they diverted. BTDT.
 
I just diverted Friday afternoon, made it as far as I could.
 

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I spoke with a former CH53 driver about this the other day during lunch. He said he has flown the same route on multiple occasions that this aircraft did.

He mentioned that the CH53 does not have de icing capabilities. It only has a hot windshield. He surmises that they started picking up ice and were unaware of it until the rotors started to droop the rpm. By then there was not much left that they would be able to do but to go down.
 
Speaking of icing, that usually requires ‘visible moisture’, a cloud or falling precip. Unless flying visually through rain, the cloud part implies IFR flight. As far as I saw(didn’t look at every detail), this flight was likely operating visually. Maybe night vision, but not IFR like an airway, or direct above the MEA, talking to ATC.
If operating visually, even if in rain, they would have to have just the right temp conditions to have ice. Yes, maybe it all went wrong at the end, precip, clouds, ice, but unlikely. Work the lapse rate backwards from local temps & flight ads-b hits. I’d think the ground scar could be a clue.


To back up even more, we’re talking midnight or later, when did they get up? Most of us get up fairly early, doing military stuff. What did they do all day? BTDT, I’m more likely to have a lapse when tired after a long day, especially if not expected and prepared for, adequate rest.
 
sourdough44 said:
Speaking of icing, that usually requires ‘visible moisture’, a cloud or falling precip. Unless flying visually through rain, the cloud part implies IFR flight. As far as I saw(didn’t look at every detail), this flight was likely operating visually. Maybe night vision, but not IFR like an airway, or direct above the MEA, talking to ATC.
If operating visually, even if in rain, they would have to have just the right temp conditions to have ice. Yes, maybe it all went wrong at the end, precip, clouds, ice, but unlikely. Work the lapse rate backwards from local temps & flight ads-b hits. I’d think the ground scar could be a clue.


To back up even more, we’re talking midnight or later, when did they get up? Most of us get up fairly early, doing military stuff. What did they do all day? BTDT, I’m more likely to have a lapse when tired after a long day, especially if not expected and prepared for, adequate rest.
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There was an area of significant precipitation indicated by radar all throughout the Laguna Mountains. They would have gotten into what was indicated right around the crash site.

The sounding from SAN Diego that morning had the freezing level at about 5000’. They’d have to fly between 4 and 6 in there to clear the passes and ridges.
 
It almost looks like they stopped following I-8 and turned direct to JLI VOR, which is the IAF for several approaches at Miramar. The track almost matches perfectly. They just about cleared the slope they impacted, maybe 1-200’ higher.

6000’ would have made it all the way from there direct to Julian (or intercepting the TACAN or ILS final course), despite much higher MSAs and OROCAs in the area.
 
Why mix VFR flight with IFR rules? I don’t know of any IFR airway that includes ‘follow I-8’. I didn’t see reference to an ADS-B IFR flight track. The transition from inadvertent IMC to IFR flying, including a safe altitude, can be difficult, even for a versed instrument pilot.

I can go back to talking about safety margins, operating towards the edge of the envelop. Most of the time it works out ok, like the previous times. As we know, Mr Murphy lays in wait, often the line isn’t early defined.

Lest you think I’m armchair Q.B.in, this type of tragedy is very upsetting. I see similarities here with the Kobe crash, and the helo that crashed on the way to the Superbowl.
 
sourdough44 said:
Why mix VFR flight with IFR rules? I don’t know of any IFR airway that includes ‘follow I-8’.
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As a 1000+ hour airplane pilot and a 3500+ hour helicopter pilot I can tell you that the instinct to go low is a hard one to fight when you are in the clouds. I've got a bunch of SPIFR time in helicopters and have had this discussion with many pilots.

One high time SPIFR rated helicopter pilot once told me that him going IFR was a "get out of jail free" card that he only used if there was no other way to maintain visual.

I'm not MMQB'ing this but I can see myself trying to do the same thing if I was in an aircraft that was not certified for icing. Landing is always an option prior to getting into those situations but it means you must admit that you mad a mistake. In the civilian world, making that call usually does not end your career.
 
I always said this, it’s hard to come up with a plan B when you’re so set (internal / command pressure) on a plan A. Especially in helicopters, where you can push things further because of the WX flexibility afforded to them and the ability to just land wherever.

It’s not just the urge to continue though, for some, they can’t work the problem when things go south. Flying north of Kabul once we were picking up a snow mix (2 miles vis) and the ceilings have pushed us down to around 500 agl and approaching higher terrain. Even got an “ice detected” light. We’ve reached the lowest we’re allowed to fly, we weren’t allowed to do pop up IFR there and even if we could, odds of our de-ice working would be 50 / 50. It’s time to turn around and head home. I look at my PI (SIC) and asked “what’s the plan?” He’s completely overloaded in just controlling the aircraft and gives a startled “what!? I do know, what are we going to do!?”

So often I’ve seen guys approaching worsening conditions and they don’t slow down. Give yourself some wiggle room. Second, find your low ground. Just don’t keep trucking along into higher terrain and worsening conditions. Finally, if you can’t find a way out, you’re flying a helicopter, land. It’s embarrassing and there’s a strong desire not to land but better to save the aircraft then going IIMC. In Germany we had an aircraft coming back from the field and trying to get to base with the field IFR. I knew exactly what they were doing. Three weeks of being in the field and wanting to get home. They launched hoping to get a SVFR but ended up landing in a farmers field a few miles away. I had to hand it to that PIC. While he knew he’d catch heat for landing off base on private property, he did the safest thing based on the conditions. That’s a hard decision to make.
 
Looks like they got refuel or just a quick break at IPL. I imagine NJK was closed.

Dad worked FSS at IPL. Actually briefed a guy once trying to cross the mountains IFR in a C182. Similar conditions to the H-53 but daylight. Pilot crashed during icing conditions killing himself, his wife and daughter. He was just talking about it the other day. It really affected him for a long time after the accident.
 
sourdough44 said:
Why mix VFR flight with IFR rules? I don’t know of any IFR airway that includes ‘follow I-8’. I didn’t see reference to an ADS-B IFR flight track. The transition from inadvertent IMC to IFR flying, including a safe altitude, can be difficult, even for a versed instrument pilot.

I can go back to talking about safety margins, operating towards the edge of the envelop. Most of the time it works out ok, like the previous times. As we know, Mr Murphy lays in wait, often the line isn’t early defined.

Lest you think I’m armchair Q.B.in, this type of tragedy is very upsetting. I see similarities here with the Kobe crash, and the helo that crashed on the way to the Superbowl.
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I’m not saying it made any sense from a procedural aspect. They were obviously in VMC, following I-8 prior to the northbound turn (and had done a 360 prior to initially heading up the grade). Conditions would be worsening shortly after getting into the mountains. But then they turned northbound on a track that looked pretty close to a VORTAC that’s used for procedures at their home base.

That could be completely coincidental - maybe they thought they could get around the radar echoes that were being painted (do they have an efb?), maybe they lost visual on the 8 and decided that was where it turned north (instead of another couple miles to the west). Who knows. It’s just one of several possibilities.
 
Velocity173 said:
Looks like they got refuel or just a quick break at IPL. I imagine NJK was closed.

Dad worked FSS at IPL. Actually briefed a guy once trying to cross the mountains IFR in a C182. Similar conditions to the H-53 but daylight. Pilot crashed during icing conditions killing himself, his wife and daughter. He was just talking about it the other day. It really affected him for a long time after the accident.
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KNJK should have been open until 0700Z; i.e., another 2 hrs at the time of KIPL stop and another 45 minutes when mission flew west-bound to the south. Stop at KIPL provided an opportunity to assess mission risk in a non-flight environment.
 
AquaLand said:
KNJK should have been open until 0700Z; i.e., another 2 hrs at the time of KIPL stop and another 45 minutes when mission flew west-bound to the south. Stop at KIPL provided an opportunity to assess mission risk in a non-flight environment.
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Well IPL doesn’t make a whole lotta sense over NJK. If they were getting fuel you go with mil fuel (when available) over contract fuel. Plus, if the aircraft should break or the decision is made to not continue for wx, you have transient barracks / lodging right there. And security is a heck of a lot better.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well IPL doesn’t make a whole lotta sense over NJK. If they were getting fuel you go with mil fuel (when available) over contract fuel. Plus, if the aircraft should break or the decision is made to not continue for wx, you have transient barracks / lodging right there. And security is a heck of a lot better.
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Interesting. We always avoid Mil fuel and went to FBO's due to quicker turnaround. Then again, it may be a regional thing here in the south. I've been in this predicament so many times in my career. I'm at the point now, where I question my crew more than I used to when it comes to CRM and adverse conditions. Despite my role as an FE, I still have a vote, at least if it's only on the CVR/VADR. Additionally, the sensors available to some platforms allow for flight into some serious Degraded Visual Environments (DVE), and can encourage continued flight when you really should be considering other options. FLIR is a great enabler, but the newer LIDAR based systems are game changers.
 
Flymy47 said:
Interesting. We always avoid Mil fuel and went to FBO's due to quicker turnaround. Then again, it may be a regional thing here in the south. I've been in this predicament so many times in my career. I'm at the point now, where I question my crew more than I used to when it comes to CRM and adverse conditions. Despite my role as an FE, I still have a vote, at least if it's only on the CVR/VADR. Additionally, the sensors available to some platforms allow for flight into some serious Degraded Visual Environments (DVE), and can encourage continued flight when you really should be considering other options. FLIR is a great enabler, but the newer LIDAR based systems are game changers.
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Yeah It’s possible to get a quicker turn around at civ especially with mil transient ramp restrictions. One time I went with Cartersville over Dobbins AFB because Dobbins had quiet hours on arrival. On the flip side of that, some bases you can get hot fuel and be in and out in 10 mins. But, the overriding restriction is DoD IFR Supplement which states to go mil first followed by into plane contract, followed by non contract.

Obviously that stuff isn’t scrutinized by higher these days but to me, in this particular case, NJK is a no brainer. Hang out in base ops while getting refuel and update wx. If it doesn’t look good, contact the DO and get lodging for the night.
 
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Just a few comments about NAF El Centro. They list all kinds of restrictions after hours, like no transient fuel, PPR required, mostly closed the wee hours. Of course, with an emergency everything can be open, do what you need to.

Had they landed at El Centro, I don’t think they would have left that night. I doubt people would rush in at 0100-0200 to service them.
 
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