missing early logs

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teethdoc

Pre-takeoff checklist
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teethdoc
I'm looking at a 66 Cherokee 140 that is missing logs from 66-84. How much does this affect the price and would it be a deal killer for you?
 
How much it affects the price is really a question for an appraiser, but having the last 30 years documented reduces the impact dramatically. Also, if I were planning to resell the plane later, it would have more effect on my offer than if it were a "keeper." As for being a deal killer, it would depend on whether there were any AD's or alterations or repairs for which there was no documentation, and what turned up on the pre-buy inspection.
 
teethdoc said:
I'm looking at a 66 Cherokee 140 that is missing logs from 66-84. How much does this affect the price and would it be a deal killer for you?
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A GOOD prebuy inspection should disclose any new parts that were installed in the event there was damage during the time of the missing log books.... Base your offer on the prebuy and then you can probably lay the "guilt trip" on the seller for the missing books..... Keep in mind, when you go to unlaod it to the next guy /gal.. They are gonna play the same game.:yes::(....

The old 140's are a great little plane,,, If it's in decent shape...snag it if you can
 
Rumor is about 10% or so. Wouldn't bother me but I'd use it as a point in price negotiations because the guy you'll eventually sell it to will too.
 
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Spend the $2 or $5 (forget which) and get the dvd from the FAA. That will list any recorded 337s and such that will fill provide some of the info.
 
It does affect the value. The seller might try to tell you different, but it can actually be more than 10% in most cases, but at least you have 30 years of history. Also, you won't know if they swapped the tach, so total hours on the air frame are forever unknown.
 
N801BH said:
A GOOD prebuy inspection should disclose any new parts that were installed in the event there was damage during the time of the missing log books..
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..

Can you explain exactly how that would be accomplished?

What would happen if replacement parts were serviceable or "as removed?"
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Also, you mentioned earlier that you wanted to sell and move up in a couple of years. Missing logs are going to make it harder to sell, unless it is priced really well. Based on that alone, I would pass or make a really low ball offer.
 
wabower said:
N801BH said:
..

Can you explain exactly how that would be accomplished?

What would happen if replacement parts were serviceable or "as removed?"
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Sure.......

Any GOOD mechanic can look at the plane and tell from various "hints" that a item has been replaced. Ie, new bolts, different methods of reconnecting an electrical device, scratched paint, primer seal broken, ETC, ETC, ETC...
If the plane was damaged and a skin panel was replaced, do you think they would install the new one with "as removed" rivets ?..:no::rolleyes:,,
geez.. use your head...
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Weak. Has it occurred to you that the guy who covered up the bad work was pretty good at it and at least as smart as the "good" mechanic who looked at it later?

N801BH said:
wabower said:
Sure.......

Any GOOD mechanic can look at the plane and tell from various "hints" that a item has been replaced. Ie, new bolts, different methods of reconnecting an electrical device, scratched paint, primer seal broken, ETC, ETC, ETC...
If the plane was damaged and a skin panel was replaced, do you think they would install the new one with "as removed" rivets ?..:no::rolleyes:,,
geez.. use your head...
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N801BH said:
Sure.......

Any GOOD mechanic can look at the plane and tell from various "hints" that a item has been replaced. Ie, new bolts, different methods of reconnecting an electrical device, scratched paint, primer seal broken, ETC, ETC, ETC...
If the plane was damaged and a skin panel was replaced, do you think they would install the new one with "as removed" rivets ?..:no::rolleyes:,,
geez.. use your head...
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think so ? My cherokee 6 had the entire right wing replaced with one from a junkyard in the mid 70's. I'd challenge anyone to find it without the logs, particularly since the SN on the (original) left wing doesn't match the airframe SN either, as was common practice at piper, beech, and others.
 
Anything could have happened during those missing 18 years. Maybe it ran off the end of the runway and ended up in salt water, was totaled by the insurance company and rebuilt by a fly by night outfit, who installed a new tach and sold it as a low time gem. I wouldn't be interested. If you buy it, expect it to be difficult to sell.
 
John Collins said:
Anything could have happened during those missing 18 years. Maybe it ran off the end of the runway and ended up in salt water, was totaled by the insurance company and rebuilt by a fly by night outfit, who installed a new tach and sold it as a low time gem. I wouldn't be interested. If you buy it, expect it to be difficult to sell.
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If that happened prior to 1984, what difference does it make now?

A corroded piece of crap, is a corroded piece of crap, and you don't need logs to tell if you got one.
 
Tom-D said:
If that happened prior to 1984, what difference does it make now?

A corroded piece of crap, is a corroded piece of crap, and you don't need logs to tell if you got one.
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Doesn't matter to me, I wouldn't buy it either way.
 
Logs that span the nefarious activity don't matter either. The good crooks are often as good or better than the so-called experts who come along later. Logs help form the mosiac, and there's no question that a non-damage airplane will sell better than an identical plane with such history. The crooks have good reason to cover up the damage, especially damage that is caused by the shop rather than the plane owner.

I'm an appraiser. Our association guidelines call for some value reduction for damage history or missing log history. It's not because we say so, it's because the market history says so. An appraiser's job is to report value, not to establish value.



JHW said:
think so ? My cherokee 6 had the entire right wing replaced with one from a junkyard in the mid 70's. I'd challenge anyone to find it without the logs, particularly since the SN on the (original) left wing doesn't match the airframe SN either, as was common practice at piper, beech, and others.
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It is a Cherokee 140, which comparatively, does not have a lot of value to lose. On the other hand, they are pretty common and most buyers are just going to keep looking for one that does not have that problem. If you want to turn this in two years, you would have difficulty selling it quickly, unless you priced it pretty low. So, either buy it low, or find another Cherokee that has its log books.
 
Real value difference of those logs? None. Perceived value difference of those logs anything from 'none' to 'scrap metal'. Typical cash value deduction: 10%.
 
Write-down depends on period of time (years, percentage of aircraft life, some weight to both) that logs are missing, and recency of occurrence. If the first 10 years of a 50 y/o plane are missing, nobody will get overly excited. If the most recent 10 years are missing, it's a different exercise.

Henning said:
Real value difference of those logs? None. Perceived value difference of those logs anything from 'none' to 'scrap metal'. Typical cash value deduction: 10%.
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wabower said:
Write-down depends on period of time (years, percentage of aircraft life, some weight to both) that logs are missing, and recency of occurrence. If the first 10 years of a 50 y/o plane are missing, nobody will get overly excited. If the most recent 10 years are missing, it's a different exercise.
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Yeah, he said prior to 84, that's 28 years, not much that's gonna jump up and bite from that age.
 
Not that big of a deal, get the CD of all the reg and airworthy items from the feds, do a prebuy and buy it if it's nice.

I wouldnt deduct a damn dime if I were the seller on those grounds.
 
Well, everybody knows it's a sellers' market so they would probably beat down your door to get it. Maybe you should raise the price instead.

NineThreeKilo said:
Not that big of a deal, get the CD of all the reg and airworthy items from the feds, do a prebuy and buy it if it's nice.

I wouldnt deduct a damn dime if I were the seller on those grounds.
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wabower said:
Well, everybody knows it's a sellers' market so they would probably beat down your door to get it. Maybe you should raise the price instead.
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Yes, this is my point. It is not an uncommon plane and this example is not going to be anyone's first choice, unless it has some other redeeming feature, such as a 430.
 
The only thing I would care about is whether there are any difficult to document ADs that came out during that time which could create a snag with a new IA who performs your next annual. The guys who did the last 38 annuals may have been fine signing off based on someone elses documentation, your new IA may not.
 
I know this, just dealt with the acquisition of some training aircraft.

However, missing some early logs aint that big of a deal.

We had some problems finding quality aircraft. In a prebuy I would beat the guy up on half a million other things on most aircraft before I brought up some missing 40-50yr old logs.

Big thing is TSMOH and TT.
 
Your right, plenty of piper 140/160s out there, but when you eliminate the out of annual hangar queens that haven't flown since the beetles played, the timed or soon to be timed out trainers and the ones that looks like they just came out of a sand and grease blaster on the paint or some crazed knife wielding guy went to town on the interior, you have less to choose from

Now eliminate the morons that thing that 140/160 is worth 40k because he has some old ass king radio and was dumb enough to spend 20k last year on it, now you have even less.
 
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