Military Pilots and Foreflight / Garmin Pilot

Mistake Not...

Mistake Not...

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Mistake Not...
How common is it for military pilots to carry an EFB type device that's not necessarily "approved".Do y'all have a tablet with Foreflight / Garmin Pilot on it to supplement what's in the airplane?

Would an approved EFB with more relevant charts in the style of the popular civilian apps be of interest?

(Not for nothing. askin' for a a friend.)
 
Mistake Not... said:
How common is it for military pilots to carry an EFB type device that's not necessarily "approved".Do y'all have a tablet with Foreflight / Garmin Pilot on it to supplement what's in the airplane?

Would an approved EFB with more relevant charts in the style of the popular civilian apps be of interest?

(Not for nothing. askin' for a a friend.)
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Military pilots won't be carrying things that aren't approved (at least they shouldn't be). You might get the random one-off guy who thinks he has a better way of doing things but that kind of thing will get squashed. My last squadron issued iPads w/ Foreflight.
 
Cooter said:
Military pilots won't be carrying things that aren't approved (at least they shouldn't be). You might get the random one-off guy who thinks he has a better way of doing things but that kind of thing will get squashed. My last squadron issued iPads w/ Foreflight.
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What did that squadron fly?
 
I'm thinking about a "foreflight-lite" that would have all of the NGA mapping products (and other stuff). Does that help any, or is foreflight just being use to help navigate (heh) the civilian ATC system?
 
I bought my son a Dual, Foreflight, and an iPad; his military aircraft didn't have a moving map GPS (just lat-long display); it was pretty common in his unit. It was useful CONUS.
 
Interesting. And now that Jepp charts are making their way on to tablets, I'm wondering if that's also true world-wide.

Sorry to be light on details. I probably can't say a lot, but I was wondering if there might be a new application of some existing software. I think that group might be too far behind to make the few advantages they have (access to current NGA data, for example) of any use. It'd take years before it was where foreflight is now. OTOH, one other important advantage it would have would be that it would be "official".
 
Army was just starting to get iPads approved when I got out a few years back. It's really a mix match nonstandardized thing right now. I've heard the AWR stipulates iPad in airplane mode with Avenze is the only approved setup but I've also heard the MFB FF is now authorized. Paper must still be carried and most likely, always will be. The AWR differs with each airframe but it's safe to say EFBs are generally approved now. Hearing rumors they might get rid of iPads because of issues with finger on glass with gloves...Army is big on wearing gloves. o_O

The EFB of course is not a primary NAV and it supplements the onboard NAV and the electronic data module. The EDM is a bit antiquated but it still provides SA with other units through Blue Force Tracker and allows text messaging between units.
 
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I take my iPad mini with foreflight on it for all XC flights in the F-15. I've heard we are getting an EFB, but no firm dates or specifics yet. I've been taking my ipad and stratus for years. We have no wx capability, nor moving map - approved or not, it makes the conduct of the flight safer. I'm happy to go up against any board that has a problem with it. I still carry all the required paper pubs of course - and use them for all the approaches.
 
most dudes fly with foreflight, myself excluded (I have a WSO for that now), stateside. I'm a hard carrier of paper, has saved us on multiple occasions, and the only thing I reference in the cockpit.
 
Earlier this summer a Chinook was parked around the corner of our hangar. I walked over and said hi and they invited me in to see it. I guess there are models that have been upgraded with glass (the pilot showed me a pic) but theirs was not. He then said they use the iPad and foreflight. They were on a tiny little cross country...across the entire country :)
 
If I had glass when I was in, I'd never use an iPad. Same thing for work right now. I've got 2 iPads sitting behind my seat that get no use. It's all in the 500H displays. Maybe if it failed (never has in 5 yrs) I'd bust out the iPads.
 
I tried out Garmin pilot for general route planning and it was fantastic! I could then have Garmin Pilot text out the route in iMessage to the co-pilot so he could run it through the fuel planning software. In our community it isn't super common. There are a few pilots with it. Mainly because no-one wants to pay $200/year for the military EFB. We aren't allowed to file flight plans on it, we can't run performance numbers with it. Literally the only benefit would be traffic, weather, and geo-referenced approach plates. Even if you had that up, someone would be breathing down your neck going, "You are using the government ipad as primary right?!" You would literally get that every flight. The EFB software we use is made by the same people as WingX. And it is garbage compared to WingX.

What I want out of a military EFB:

Worldwide NGA & Jepp chart coverage(obviously)
Geo-referenced approach plates & taxi diagrams
Ability to file 175 and 1801 flight plans through the app and have the aircraft profiles for your specific MWS already loaded on there.
Ability for TACC to send our "flight packages" with all PDFs to us through the app
Ability to do fuel computations in the app including the ability to add drag penalties for tanker & receiver air refueling
Text & graphical weather
Traffic
Able to use the app to pull NOTAMS
Ability for the app to do the 781 form for us
Ability for the boom to use the app for the W&B
 
That's awesome. Exactly what I'm after. I'll send a PM later today.

I've worked with a couple of fixed and rotor wing avionics suites. From my experience, Just sticking a Garmin 430 in the dash would be a huge upgrade. I can't believe some of the things you guys have to live with.
 
I was speaking to a military pilot not that long ago. The attitude about COTS EFB's was that they weren't trustworthy, and decreased situational awareness. I can't say I agree with the latter part, but the former has some truth. I've had my iPad shut down due to overheating before.
 
I've had my android tablet decide to reboot just as I'm beginning an approach (practice, but under the hood) multiple times. Oddly, never while doing just "VFR" stuff. Not every time, mind you, or even often. But it only takes once to really complicate things in the right situation. If I ever get past the damn checkride, I wonder what I'll do. I'd like to think I'll print out the approaches, but who does that?
 
Mistake Not... said:
I've had my android tablet decide to reboot just as I'm beginning an approach (practice, but under the hood) multiple times. Oddly, never while doing just "VFR" stuff. Not every time, mind you, or even often. But it only takes once to really complicate things in the right situation. If I ever get past the damn checkride, I wonder what I'll do. I'd like to think I'll print out the approaches, but who does that?
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The AF requires you to fly with a backup. With the glass canopies, overheating is real problem. It usually happens when you're powered back for the descent and getting set up for the approach. I usually through my gloves over it but that's a pain too.
 
George Mohr said:
I was speaking to a military pilot not that long ago. The attitude about COTS EFB's was that they weren't trustworthy, and decreased situational awareness. I can't say I agree with the latter part, but the former has some truth. I've had my iPad shut down due to overheating before.
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I'd be interested to know why they think it decreases SA. Is it because the apps are poorly designed, or is it because the pilot is heads down on something. I guess I mean, is the tablet itself the problem, or the ui of the software?

("Don't text and Fly... the life you save may be your own.")
 
Mistake Not... said:
That's awesome. Exactly what I'm after. I'll send a PM later today.

I've worked with a couple of fixed and rotor wing avionics suites. From my experience, Just sticking a Garmin 430 in the dash would be a huge upgrade. I can't believe some of the things you guys have to live with.
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If it were only that simple. It's like trying to get EAB avionics in your Cessna.

These contractors that already supply the generic looking avionics are in bed with the DOD so they stick with them. That and they're already Mil Spec for that particular aircraft. You go from a crappy VFR non moving map, monochrome GPS, to the same version, only IFR certified. So, you end up mounting a 496 in the cockpit that you're not authorized to use, in order to provide better SA. Or, sometimes you get a brand new aircraft with a glass MFDs and a pretty moving map GPS that's VFR only. :confused:

The military has never been big on nice to have avionics to navigate in the NAS. That's why you have a history of most Navy fighters with no VOR / ILS / IFR GPS capability. It's all about systems needed for warfare and then provide the bare mins in the cockpit to get the aircraft home.

Like the FAA, DOD is slowly changing their ways though. Newer aircraft like the AH-64E actually have decent IFR capabilities now because enough people complained and Boeing listened. Only took about 30 years. Enough people have complained about EFBs and the DOD finally caved in in their PED rules to allow them. Change taking place at a snail's pace but positive non the less.
 
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Yeah. thought it was funny that absolutely no android phones were allowed until android development started. lol.
 
Mistake Not... said:
I'd be interested to know why they think it decreases SA. Is it because the apps are poorly designed, or is it because the pilot is heads down on something. I guess I mean, is the tablet itself the problem, or the ui of the software?

("Don't text and Fly... the life you save may be your own.")
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I couldn't get a clear answer from this person, but he had a firm opinion and it seemed to be based on facts... in this case, the amount of airspace incursions and near misses in the EFB era. I myself don't believe that. My SA is vastly better with an app than it is without it.
 
Yeah. Agreed. My current airport home is under the Atlanta class B. Am I looking at the tablet? You betcha. I don't even know if the garmin 430 map has lower limits on the class B airspace... I'm watching the tablet on my lap with my position and the sectional.

Now, if you're dumb enough to try to figure out how to do something you've never done before, and you're moving as fast as some of them can move, then I can definitely see where that would be a problem. But don't they have autopilots too?
 
As an aside, I flew my first 2 GPS approaches LNAV/MDA this week. We just got RNAV certified in the jets somewhat recently. Not certified to use glideslope, but it is still a good option for a lot of fields that don't have a TACAN or PAR approach. Seemed pretty straight forward, first one was to minimums......of course......my first ever ILS back when, was also to mins....seems to be my luck.
 
35 AoA said:
As an aside, I flew my first 2 GPS approaches LNAV/MDA this week. We just got RNAV certified in the jets somewhat recently. Not certified to use glideslope, but it is still a good option for a lot of fields that don't have a TACAN or PAR approach. Seemed pretty straight forward, first one was to minimums......of course......my first ever ILS back when, was also to mins....seems to be my luck.
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Strange that they don't want to make it certified for LPVs. Had the same issue with ours when we upgraded to /G. LNAV only.

This a Super only capability or did they upgrade the Legacy Hornets as well?
 
I hand the paper map to my copilot.
Sometimes she gets confused and I have to unfold and refold it so she can see where we are.
But I always have Avare on my tablet. Just in case.
She did get us lost in a driveway, among every other attempt at navigating.
Just saying.
 
Velocity173 said:
Strange that they don't want to make it certified for LPVs. Had the same issue with ours when we upgraded to /G. LNAV only.

This a Super only capability or did they upgrade the Legacy Hornets as well?
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Supers only. NAVAIR is in the process of completely divesting itself from Legacy support.
 
Mistake Not... said:
I've worked with a couple of fixed and rotor wing avionics suites. From my experience, Just sticking a Garmin 430 in the dash would be a huge upgrade. I can't believe some of the things you guys have to live with.
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Oh geez, I flew a Seminole with a Garmin 650 and thought, "This thing can do more than the KC-10 can!" In the KC-10 we can't even do LNAV/VNAV GPS approaches.
 
RUMINT this week that we (ANG fighter fleet) will get EFB's "in the next few months". Sounds like ipad based and we'll be required to carry two of them (in case one dies/gets broken/whatever). It's a start...

LNAV/VNAV? haha!!!!! Neva eva in an F-15. Too bad - I'll just do them in my Bonanza I guess...
 
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