Military Pilot Question

[Scott@KTYR]

I have a question to the Military pilots out there.

I watched APOA Live March 26 webcast that showed the crew of a B-52 getting on a bus to take them to their plane (about 16:45 min in). The moment they sat on the bus they remover all of the patches that were Velcroed on the sleeves. Can anyone tell me why they did that?

http://www.aopa.org/AOPA-Live

 

[wanttaja]

I have a question to the Military pilots out there.

I watched APOA Live March 26 webcast that showed the crew of a B-52 getting on a bus to take them to their plane (about 16:45 min in). The moment they sat on the bus they remover all of the patches that were Velcroed on the sleeves. Can anyone tell me why they did that?

http://www.aopa.org/AOPA-Live

Probably security, so if they're captured, the captors won't immediately know what squadron, etc. they're with. Same reason they aren't supposed to carry personal letters, etc. All they should have is the identification required by the Geneva Convention.

There's also the propaganda issue. During WWII, there was a B-17 named "Murder Incorporated", and the crew had the name on the backs of their flying jackets. When they were shot down and captured, the Germans made considerable propaganda about how the bomber crews were murderers....

Ron Wanttaja

 

[AvionicsTech]

I have a question to the Military pilots out there.

I watched APOA Live March 26 webcast that showed the crew of a B-52 getting on a bus to take them to their plane (about 16:45 min in). The moment they sat on the bus they remover all of the patches that were Velcroed on the sleeves. Can anyone tell me why they did that?

http://www.aopa.org/AOPA-Live

Not a military pilot, but I am a military aircraft maintainer and deal with military pilots, so that should be close enough. They are sanitizing their uniforms. It's a standard SERE practice to deny the enemy any information that can be used against you. Hope that answers your question.

 

[Sluggo63]

Like other people said, they were 'sanitizing' their uniforms. No unit patches, etc. When we're going to fly in the AOR, we typically left our patches, wallets, etc. with the Intel office then picked them up after we landed during the debrief.

 

[frfly172]

Secrecy ,not sure how effective it is,in this day and age with social media.

 

[Velocity173]

Never sanitized. Name and rank are given anyway if you go down. It's not hard to determine what service and unit the aircraft is from if it's still intact. Some of the passengers I flew sanitized everything. Depends on the unit.

Leave your wallet at "home", carry your "blood chit" and pack as much crap as you can in your vest. Destroy or zeroize all sensitive information. That is what's important.

 

[hindsight2020]

Never sanitized. Name and rank are given anyway if you go down. It's not hard to determine what service and unit the aircraft is from if it's still intact. Some of the passengers I flew sanitized everything. Depends on the unit.

Leave your wallet at "home", carry your "blood chit" and pack as much crap as you can in your vest. Destroy or zeroize all sensitive information. That is what's important.

Yep, that's the way I did it when I flew that 8-engined piece of ----t. Of course, the Pacific was always a rather friendly place to fly over than the Middle East.

Some of the guys here in training command have the sanitize ritual so engrained they still do it when they fly with the student pilots. Hell, a good friend of mine even puts the blood chit on the glareshield, and we're mere UPT instructors mind you (we are in Mexico if you think about it....). I always get a chuckle out of it, though I suppose it's a good pantomime to display for the benefit of the kids. I value not having ripped velcro bedding on my flight suit due to the constant on-off, so I leave them affixed and the hell alone. :wink2:

 

[comanchepilot]

Like other people said, they were 'sanitizing' their uniforms. No unit patches, etc. When we're going to fly in the AOR, we typically left our patches, wallets, etc. with the Intel office then picked them up after we landed during the debrief.

Yep - anything that can affect OPSEC is removed. They know you are a US pilot. They know generally what ac you flew - and even the unit if the ac is recovered. Name rank and serial number. Anything that can our intel can use to ascertain any meaningful information is removed. Literally even the shape of the patch can be helpful - so - many just have rectangular velcro on the flight suit - and the patch is attached to the rectangular piece regardless of the shape of the patch. Essentially all the hook velcro is the shape of the flag. . . .

 

[poadeleted20]

Sanitization is essential going into combat -- the North Vietnamese used personal information against crews during interrogation. You carry your dog tags around your neck and your ID card in your pocket, and that's it for personal possessions. During Desert Storm, the Jewish crews even had special dog tags made with their religion listed as Unitarian or something like that.

However, that can backfire if you do it on an exercise and then divert.

We had 8 jets divert from Heyford to the USAF base at Lakenheath when a snow storm hit the field about the time the last jet got airborne on the mass launch at the end of our NATO TAC EVAL in 1983. When they landed, they had nothing but their ID cards in their pockets -- no cash, no credit cards, no checks, no nothing. They couldn't even get something to eat when they landed there, no less toothbrushes or razors for the overnight without some form of payment. IIRC, some Lakenheath crews had to lend our guys cash just to get a burger at the bowling alley (which was the only place still open for food by the time they got things sorted). Our wing commander had to get on the phone to the Lakenheath wing commander just to get them rooms for the night.

OTOH, the Brits at RAF Valley on Anglesey in Wales (where I was diverted) met us at the four diverted jets with "diverted aircrew" kits including razors, toothbrushes, soap, shaving cream, etc., and allowed us to sign for the kits as well as dinner and drinks at their Officers Mess (they even held their sit-down, served, 4-course dinner 30 minutes for our arrival from the flight line), our rooms for the night, and breakfast the next morning (standard full English fried breakfast -- fried eggs, fried bacon, fried potatoes, fried slice, with the only unfried things being the grilled to-mah-to and the baked beans). Bills arrived in the post about a week later, and were astonishingly reasonable. Rather civilized, those Brits, don't you know.

 

[Velocity173]

What's funny is these days you have bases such as Bagram with their own public website. They have stories on units just like bases do in the states. The "enemy" knows who is based there and the people that fly out of there don't care.

Of course everyone posts their flying vids on YouTube or FB as well so it's not hard to tell which units are operating from which bases at any given time.

 

[poadeleted20]

And yet, to my knowledge, other than the two guys killed, the names of the crews on the 1986 Libya raid (Eldorado Canyon) have never been officially released.

 

[Warlock]

Never sanitized...Blood Chit for sure...escorted plenty with nothing...

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Secrecy ,not sure how effective it is,in this day and age with social media.

WW2 : My uncle, shot down over polesti in a B24 , stated that they knew where he was based , how many aircraft were involved, and the officer who led the flight (Kane) so much for social media. The Russians knew exactly who francis Gary powers was and why he was flying over Russia, even tho his uniform was stripped, no wallet etc. And the U2 had been stripped of any possible trace including taking off all manuf. ident plates, etc.

 

[poadeleted20]

WW2 : My uncle, shot down over polesti in a B24 , stated that they knew where he was based , how many aircraft were involved, and the officer who led the flight (Kane) so much for social media. The Russians knew exactly who francis Gary powers was and why he was flying over Russia, even tho his uniform was stripped, no wallet etc. And the U2 had been stripped of any possible trace including taking off all manuf. ident plates, etc.

And then again, it took the North Vietnamese several days to figure out that Doug Hegdahl was telling the truth when he said he was a seaman deuce who'd fallen off his ship.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

And then again, it took the North Vietnamese several days to figure out that Doug Hegdahl was telling the truth when he said he was a seaman deuce who'd fallen off his ship.

But then again......a B52 is a whole other story isn't it? One does not have to ponder a lot about who owned it. Or a B24. But someone always comes up with a " yes, but..."

 

[poadeleted20]

But then again......a B52 is a whole other story isn't it? One does not have to ponder a lot about who owned it. Or a B24. But someone always comes up with a " yes, but..."

It shouldn't be hard to figure out who owns the USS Canberra, either. The problem was getting them to believe that he really was just a sailor who'd fallen off his ship rather than an aircrewmember whose plane had been shot down. The fact that it was two days before the ship's command personnel realized he was missing (thus delaying the report up the chain if his disappearance) didn't help.

 

[Shepherd]

Couldn't understand it while I was in the Air Force, still can't understand it today.
Sanitize the uniform for security purposes.
Everything the enemy need to know is written on the side of the plane.
Base, wing and squadron info, aircraft number, even the pilot and crew names and rank are on the side of the plane. Or has the military stopped the practice of "personal" aircraft?

 

[poadeleted20]

Or has the military stopped the practice of "personal" aircraft?

That practice was stopped before I started flying in the military in 1973. Yes, I had my name on the side of a jet, but that didn't mean I ever flew it at all, no less routinely -- purely ceremonial. In any event, I was always required to give my name, rank, service number, and date of birth, so even if I was flying "my" jet, that wouldn't give them any information they didn't already have directly from me -- assuming they even had the wreckage in hand (which, if I ejected, they might well not -- might be destroyed beyond recognition of the unit markings, at the bottom of a really deep body of water or otherwise inaccessible, etc). The enemy also wouldn't need to know if one was a Fighter Weapons School grad, or any of the other things one might have patches to indicate.

 

[nddons]

Sanitization is essential going into combat -- the North Vietnamese used personal information against crews during interrogation. You carry your dog tags around your neck and your ID card in your pocket, and that's it for personal possessions. During Desert Storm, the Jewish crews even had special dog tags made with their religion listed as Unitarian or something like that.

However, that can backfire if you do it on an exercise and then divert.

We had 8 jets divert from Heyford to the USAF base at Lakenheath when a snow storm hit the field about the time the last jet got airborne on the mass launch at the end of our NATO TAC EVAL in 1983. When they landed, they had nothing but their ID cards in their pockets -- no cash, no credit cards, no checks, no nothing. They couldn't even get something to eat when they landed there, no less toothbrushes or razors for the overnight without some form of payment. IIRC, some Lakenheath crews had to lend our guys cash just to get a burger at the bowling alley (which was the only place still open for food by the time they got things sorted). Our wing commander had to get on the phone to the Lakenheath wing commander just to get them rooms for the night.

OTOH, the Brits at RAF Valley on Anglesey in Wales (where I was diverted) met us at the four diverted jets with "diverted aircrew" kits including razors, toothbrushes, soap, shaving cream, etc., and allowed us to sign for the kits as well as dinner and drinks at their Officers Mess (they even held their sit-down, served, 4-course dinner 30 minutes for our arrival from the flight line), our rooms for the night, and breakfast the next morning (standard full English fried breakfast -- fried eggs, fried bacon, fried potatoes, fried slice, with the only unfried things being the grilled to-mah-to and the baked beans). Bills arrived in the post about a week later, and were astonishingly reasonable. Rather civilized, those Brits, don't you know.

Surely you had some silk stockings and Hershey Bars with you "just in case", right?

But seriously, was there a tactical reason not to have any pocket cash with you? I would think that might get you some help if you were shot down in enemy territory.

 

[35 AoA]

Hell, a good friend of mine even puts the blood chit on the glareshield, and we're mere UPT instructors mind you (we are in Mexico if you think about it....).

Interesting......they pretty much made it sound like we were going to go to prison if we tried to take one as a souvenir. It was also like Admiral level attention when one guy lost a bullet from one of his clips. I do think the sanitizing of flight suits is really bizarre outside of combat however.

As for "personal aircraft", it is pretty standard (in the USN/USMC at least) to have your name on one of the squadron jets. That doesn't by any means mean that it is the airplane you fly. You would fly it occasionally, but so would everyone else. Also, normally there is a different name on either side of the canopy, typically with the more senior guys having names on the left, more junior on the right.

 

[BillTIZ]

Back in the day of SAC flying the B-52G, the Velcro was cut to the shape of the patch. It was an ugly black Velcro. Later the Velcro matched the green bags, flight suit, and we went to a square just the size of the patch.

Later the flight suits were issued with the Velcro already sewn on.

We did not sanitize our flight suits for peacetime training flights.

 

[Warlock]

As an Army Aviator particularly with two piece flight suits and depending on the time period every thing was sew on...even when our mission was cross flot deep attack we never considered ripping up our uniforms...

 

[Velocity173]

As an Army Aviator particularly with two piece flight suits and depending on the time period every thing was sew on...even when our mission was cross flot deep attack we never considered ripping up our uniforms...

Because it's not important. The whole sanitize practice on the uniform is antiquated. If the enemy has done their homework, then they already know your unit and branch of service. Only thing that's left is name and rank, which we'll tell them that anyway IAW the code of conduct. If they know all that information, it's not like any of it will be of value. The guys in Nam were tortured simply because they were "air pirates." Didn't matter what was in their uniforms, they were going to get tortured and none of the information given was a benefit to the NVA.

Same goes true for today. In Iraq I had a tan one piece with patches sewn on. Who cares that they know my division? It was already realeased to Army Times with specific elements of the division weeks ago. All the information these days is a Google search away. Or you can just set up in your lawn chair and binos a couple miles off the end of the runway in Iraq or Astan and see what units are operating in your area.

If I did get captured and escaped decapatation, I'd tell so many lies about my unit, they wouldn't have a clue what was going on. Odds of being captured in the last two wars is so slim it's not even worth dwelling on.

 

[poadeleted20]

Surely you had some silk stockings and Hershey Bars with you "just in case", right?

In 1983, there was no shortage of either in Britain, so it wouldn't have helped much. And there weren't many women at the RAF Valley O'Club on a Thursday night, anyway.

But seriously, was there a tactical reason not to have any pocket cash with you? I would think that might get you some help if you were shot down in enemy territory.

That's just the rules they had. Too bad we weren't carrying Major Kong's survival kit -- that would have been useful, especially the $100 in gold coins.

 

[poadeleted20]

Interesting......they pretty much made it sound like we were going to go to prison if we tried to take one as a souvenir. It was also like Admiral level attention when one guy lost a bullet from one of his clips. I do think the sanitizing of flight suits is really bizarre outside of combat however.

We only did it during exercises practicing for combat -- because you fight like you train, so you train the way you plan to fight. However, after that debacle, USAFE put out the word that diverted crews sanitized for exercise would be extended credit on their signature by all USAFE base facilities -- just like the rest of our NATO partners already did.

 

[Rigged4Flight]

Blood chits have to be accounted for. Sign it out when you go and sign it in when your mission is over.

With the exception of a couple guys that routinely exaggerate everything they've ever done, nobody sanitizes on the missions I'm on. And as for security codes, frequencies, etc it doesn't take long for all of them to be changed if we ever go off radar or are overdue for a call.

Most of the intrigue and cloak/dagger stuff isn't as relevant today as it once was. The world isn't that naive anymore.

 

[Velocity173]

Interesting......they pretty much made it sound like we were going to go to prison if we tried to take one as a souvenir. It was also like Admiral level attention when one guy lost a bullet from one of his clips. I do think the sanitizing of flight suits is really bizarre outside of combat however.

As for "personal aircraft", it is pretty standard (in the USN/USMC at least) to have your name on one of the squadron jets. That doesn't by any means mean that it is the airplane you fly. You would fly it occasionally, but so would everyone else. Also, normally there is a different name on either side of the canopy, typically with the more senior guys having names on the left, more junior on the right.

Tried to take mine home as a souvenir and they wouldn't let me. Had to turn it in for the next rotation coming in. Mine actually had what appeared to be real blood stains on it. I was curious about it's history prior to me taking ownership.

 

[35 AoA]

Tried to take mine home as a souvenir and they wouldn't let me. Had to turn it in for the next rotation coming in. Mine actually had what appeared to be real blood stains on it. I was curious about it's history prior to me taking ownership.

good on you......I don't think I ever even looked at "mine" or even opened it up. It was always "SDO give me my F ing stuff (gun/clips/chit/go pills/EVC's) so I can walk already on this awesome 7 hour flight with a million plugs on the maiden that will end with a night trap. I love my life and I am super stoked to be here" /sarcasm

 

[Velocity173]

good on you......I don't think I ever even looked at "mine" or even opened it up. It was always "SDO give me my F ing stuff (gun/clips/chit/go pills/EVC's) so I can walk already on this awesome 7 hour flight with a million plugs on the maiden that will end with a night trap. I love my life and I am super stoked to be here" /sarcasm

Lol! I couldn't imagine sitting in a cramped cockpit for 7 hrs. I've logged 10.5 before but at least I got to get out, stretch my legs and take a leak. Of course didn't have the stress of a carrier landing at the end of the night either. My only worry was getting food poisoning from mid-rats after the mission.:wink2:

We used to keep our same blood chits the whole year. That's the only reason why I knew what mine looked like. Last deployment we signed them out before each flight. I think over the years the powers that be got tired of guys leaving their chits in the laundry and losing them.

 

[gkainz]

Thank Grumman for 5.5 hrs max endurance and no refuel probe.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Never sanitized. Name and rank are given anyway if you go down. It's not hard to determine what service and unit the aircraft is from if it's still intact. Some of the passengers I flew sanitized everything. Depends on the unit.



Leave your wallet at "home", carry your "blood chit" and pack as much crap as you can in your vest. Destroy or zeroize all sensitive information. That is what's important.

Yeah, seems to vary. I've seen some guys with Velcro rank insignia on their flight suits and some don't bother.

 

[35 AoA]

I wonder when the last successful use of a blood chit was anyway. Not that it hasn't served a purpose before, but if I were evading, about the last thing I would do (in this day and age) would be to find a group of random people and roll the dice about whether they would take my weird piece of paper and ensure my safety or just lob my head off (or turn me over to someone who would).

 

[nauga]

Thank Grumman for 5.5 hrs max endurance and no refuel probe.

That was then, this is now...

Nauga,
who grew up when Grummans were supposed to give and McD-D's were supposed to receive

 

[warthog1984]

That was then, this is now...

Nauga,
who grew up when Grummans were supposed to give and McD-D's were supposed to receive

For some reason the thought of a Hornet OFFloading gas makes my mind want to cry.

 

[gkainz]

That was then, this is now...

Nauga,
who grew up when Grummans were supposed to give and McD-D's were supposed to receive

oh my ... those poor moles in the hummer hole ... your eyes glaze over before a typical double cycle is over, your butt and legs go numb at 3 hrs and your mind turns to ever circling jello watching a 6 rpm green sweep for hours on end. I had it better than the rest of the crew ... I could usually find an excuse to go forward into the equipment bays and "check on a piece of gear" just to get feeling back into my legs again.

Couple shots of O2 did wonders to sharpen the eyes and re-engage the brain again.

How about a picture of the E-2B testbed that had a 'winder rail on it? If you're gonna make us stay up past our bedtime, give us something to play with?

 

[EvilEagle]

I take my patches off for training flights because dull green fuzzy Velcro doesn't glare when I'm trying to get tally at 10 miles.

Combat ops as discussed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[kyleb]

The rarely seen picture of two aircraft running out of fuel at the same time... ;-)

 

[gkainz]

Is the Hornet towing or is the Hummer pushing?

 

[35 AoA]

I would not want to be the recovery tanker that has to deal with this circus

 

[overdrive148]

On the subject of tankers, even if most of you have seen or experienced it