Military Lights out in Bravo

MadseasoN

MadseasoN

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MadseasoN
I was down in Clear Lake, TX on July 4th watching the fireworks when I noticed a single bright red light moving across the sky. This was not a red beacon, it was larger than that and a bit fuzzy (for lack of a better word). When he got directly overhead he turned off the light but I could still see his silhouette. It was a large jet of some kind but real quiet. Clear Lake, TX is very close to Ellington Field (EFD) which bases F-16's but he didn't appear to be headed there. He looked to be about 2500-3500' up which is Class B in that area. Anyone have a similar experience? I didn't know that military went 'lights out' in Bravo airspace.
 
I landed in Laurinburg, NC (KMEB) at 2200 two months ago and was warned about "Night parachute activity."

Landed, taxied, shut down, heard a fairly large twin take off -- no lights at all.


FWIW, MEB is very close to Ft Bragg (lots of SF types there...)
 
The Nasa T-38 jets fly out and about in that area.
 
MadseasoN said:
I was down in Clear Lake, TX on July 4th watching the fireworks when I noticed a single bright red light moving across the sky. This was not a red beacon, it was larger than that and a bit fuzzy (for lack of a better word). When he got directly overhead he turned off the light but I could still see his silhouette. It was a large jet of some kind but real quiet. Clear Lake, TX is very close to Ellington Field (EFD) which bases F-16's but he didn't appear to be headed there. He looked to be about 2500-3500' up which is Class B in that area. Anyone have a similar experience? I didn't know that military went 'lights out' in Bravo airspace.
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This is my backyard. I am unaware of ANY waivers allowing the mil to routinely operate in the Houston Class Bravo without identification lights.

Was he an inbound or an outbound? At the altitude you suggest, there is an approach corridor that goes over the top of Kemah then over EFD then merges with the 31L ILS into Hobby somewhere near Beltway/45 (very rough coordinates). If they were landing 4 , they funnel over Kemah then southerly then right turns to 4.

If the red light "disappeared" when he got over you, perhaps it was a directional wingtip light on a 737 (most common bird going into Hobby). Very very infrequent big stuff at EFD now at night - UPS moved to Bush, just the occasional sports team charter and large mil transient.
 
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Ron Levy said:
The only waiver the military has for operating "light out" outside Restricted areas is for certain MOA's with a lot of monitoring to tell if nonparticipating aircraft are intruding. See http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/air_traffic/lights_out.html for details.
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Actually, the Army and Marine Corp have exemptions for lights-out helicopter ops (below 500 AGL) and the Air Force has an exemption for lights-out ops at and above 18,000 MSL (in ATCAAs, so almost MOAs). Of course, none of these would explain the OPs experience.

DEA and CBP have exemptions for lights-out ops, but they don't fly large jets.
 
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kkoran said:
Actually, the Army and Marine Corp have exemptions for lights-out helicopter ops (below 500 AGL)
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To an extent. Per the exemption (which was obtained by the USAF), such operations "shall be escorted by a properly lighted aircraft serving as an observation platform dedicated to surveillance for nonparticipating aircraft." In addition, "The petitioner shall advertise each approved training area to operators at all airports within 50 nautical miles of the area for 60 days preceding its initial use." IOW, this shouldn't be a surprise.
 
MadseasoN said:
I was down in Clear Lake, TX on July 4th watching the fireworks when I noticed a single bright red light moving across the sky. This was not a red beacon, it was larger than that and a bit fuzzy (for lack of a better word). When he got directly overhead he turned off the light but I could still see his silhouette. It was a large jet of some kind but real quiet. Clear Lake, TX is very close to Ellington Field (EFD) which bases F-16's but he didn't appear to be headed there. He looked to be about 2500-3500' up which is Class B in that area. Anyone have a similar experience? I didn't know that military went 'lights out' in Bravo airspace.
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wichita was covered in a gunpowder haze from a massive amount of illegal fireworks being shot off all over the city last weekend. I noticed that overflying jets landing lights appeared to have a red tint as they filtered through the smoke. we could not see nav lights from the ground through the haze. i'm betting the pilot flying over you just happened to turn off his landing light as he passed over you.
 
Ron Levy said:
To an extent. Per the exemption (which was obtained by the USAF), such operations "shall be escorted by a properly lighted aircraft serving as an observation platform dedicated to surveillance for nonparticipating aircraft." In addition, "The petitioner shall advertise each approved training area to operators at all airports within 50 nautical miles of the area for 60 days preceding its initial use." IOW, this shouldn't be a surprise.
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Agreed, though that wouldn't help inbound transient pilots or pilots just flying through the area. Of course I'd like to thinke there aren't too many people flying around below 500 AGL at night.

Unfortunately, getting the word out isn't as simple as the exemptions make it seem. Several years ago, when I was still on active duty, I was working a light-out issue and noticed the required NOTAMs for lights-out ops in some MOAs were being entered into the Military NOTAM system using the base's identifier. This was practically worthless from a civilian pilot's perspective since:
1. FSS didn't provide Military NOTAMs unless a pilot specifically requested them and they not available at all through DUAT/DUATS.

2. Pilots would have had to check the NOTAMs for a base that might be 50 or 100 miles away from the MOA to see the NOTAM's regarding lights-out ops.
​
 
kkoran said:
Several years ago, when I was still on active duty, I was working a light-out issue and noticed the required NOTAMs for lights-out ops in some MOAs were being entered into the Military NOTAM system using the base's identifier. This was practically worthless from a civilian pilot's perspective since:
1. FSS didn't provide Military NOTAMs unless a pilot specifically requested them and they not available at all through DUAT/DUATS.

2. Pilots would have had to check the NOTAMs for a base that might be 50 or 100 miles away from the MOA to see the NOTAM's regarding lights-out ops.
​
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Fortunately, these two issues are now OBE'd.
 
Jeanie said:
OBE'd?
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Overcome by Events.

Military NOTAMs have since been integrated into the civil system. I'm not sure if the problem regarding bases using their airport IDs when issuing NOTAMs on MOAs has been fixed or not. In the case I'm familiar with, the ARTCC agreed to publish the NOTAM.
 
kkoran said:
Overcome by Events.

Military NOTAMs have since been integrated into the civil system. I'm not sure if the problem regarding bases using their airport IDs when issuing NOTAMs on MOAs has been fixed or not. In the case I'm familiar with, the ARTCC agreed to publish the NOTAM.
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In this post-Distant/Local era, these NOTAMs now appear in the Airspace section.
 
Doggtyred said:
This is my backyard. I am unaware of ANY waivers allowing the mil to routinely operate in the Houston Class Bravo without identification lights.

Was he an inbound or an outbound? At the altitude you suggest, there is an approach corridor that goes over the top of Kemah then over EFD then merges with the 31L ILS into Hobby somewhere near Beltway/45 (very rough coordinates). If they were landing 4 , they funnel over Kemah then southerly then right turns to 4.

If the red light "disappeared" when he got over you, perhaps it was a directional wingtip light on a 737 (most common bird going into Hobby). Very very infrequent big stuff at EFD now at night - UPS moved to Bush, just the occasional sports team charter and large mil transient.
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He was inbound. Flew almost directly over the Hilton to the West. Didn't look like he was headed to Hobby.

Definately not a 737. It was a fighter jet of some kind.
 
MadseasoN said:
He was inbound. Flew almost directly over the Hilton to the West. Didn't look like he was headed to Hobby.

Definately not a 737. It was a fighter jet of some kind.
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Since when is a fighter a "large jet"?
 
kkoran said:
Since when is a fighter a "large jet"?
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Compared to a Skyhawk or other GA aircraft? Forever! (Of course a SkyHawk is a large aircraft compared to a powered parachute.) Einstein had it right! :)
 
Ron Levy said:
In this post-Distant/Local era, these NOTAMs now appear in the Airspace section.
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The question is: How do they get into the system? Can a flying unit (base) create airspace NOTAMs or does the ARTCC have to do it? The problem before was that there was no way for the military to do it.
 
kkoran said:
Since when is a fighter a "large jet"?
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Hmmm. Well I guess if we have to ANALyze semantics and get off topic then.....

Compared to the 3 or 4 Cessnas flying over the lake around the same time it was 'large'.

Compared to the 3 or 4 Cessnas flying over the lake around the same time it was a 'jet'.

Compare to anything I've ever flown it was large and it was a jet.

Compared to a 747 it was not a large jet.

Compare to the lake a 747 is not large.

Feel better?
:wink2:
 
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