wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
DC is full of gas bags. Most are made from politicians....
'S OK. Debt funding from China is paying for it.
Military Blimp Breaks Mooring in Maryland
- Thread starter AdamZ
- Start date
EppyGA
Touchdown! Greaser!
Once that thing broke loose and some of their protection was lost, I'm surprised the politicians didn't head underground to be sure they were safe!
dell30rb
Final Approach
A shotgun could have been used because of the ballistics. You don't want to have wayward centerfire rifle bullets being shot at altitude. They could go for miles.
KSCessnaDriver
Pattern Altitude
It's not a matter of what its made of. It's a matter of the extremely low pressure at which the gas is in the envelope. You'll need thousands and thousands of holes to make any significant impact on accelerating deflation of the thing.
Sure, bigger penetration, and less chance of damaging the radar. The envelope is cheap, it's the damned electronics package that's expensive.
Auburn2002
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2012
- Messages
- 125
- Display Name
Display name:
Auburn2002
Anyone know what altitude it was at before breaking loose? I'm assuming thousands of feet, in which case what caused it to descend low enough to get within shotgun range (even if they were shooting slugs)? In the pictures posted with the horse, is that after taking the 100 rounds? Obviously it's partially deflated there, so I'm guessing yes.
I guess I'm just curious how this thing works in normal operation too. What controls altitude? If I had to guess, I'd say it climbs as high as the tether allows it - so when the tether broke, why didn't it climb? Or did it? And if so, what caused it to later descend?
I have so many questions that go beyond simply mocking the cost and feasibility of such a craft.
I guess I'm just curious how this thing works in normal operation too. What controls altitude? If I had to guess, I'd say it climbs as high as the tether allows it - so when the tether broke, why didn't it climb? Or did it? And if so, what caused it to later descend?
I have so many questions that go beyond simply mocking the cost and feasibility of such a craft.
Just doing some cocktail napkin calculations, if you fire a round perfectly straight up, and trade all kinetic energy for potential, then 1/2 mv^2=mgh, neglecting friction losses. The round arrives at the top of its flight with zero speed.
The m terms cancel, and reordering h=0.5v^2/g. Muzzle velocity of a 30-06 round is about 800 m/s; g=9.8m/s^2:: h=32,500 m. A shotgun slug gets about 500-550 m/s out of the muzzle, or over 12k m height. Add in frictional losses, plus you want to reserve some velocity when it gets to height to actually do something besides bounce off, but I have no trouble believing a round fired from the ground could reach the thing -- I can't imagine how one would aim to hit it.
The m terms cancel, and reordering h=0.5v^2/g. Muzzle velocity of a 30-06 round is about 800 m/s; g=9.8m/s^2:: h=32,500 m. A shotgun slug gets about 500-550 m/s out of the muzzle, or over 12k m height. Add in frictional losses, plus you want to reserve some velocity when it gets to height to actually do something besides bounce off, but I have no trouble believing a round fired from the ground could reach the thing -- I can't imagine how one would aim to hit it.
Anyone know what altitude it was at before breaking loose? I'm assuming thousands of feet, in which case what caused it to descend low enough to get within shotgun range (even if they were shooting slugs)? In the pictures posted with the horse, is that after taking the 100 rounds? Obviously it's partially deflated there, so I'm guessing yes.
I guess I'm just curious how this thing works in normal operation too. What controls altitude? If I had to guess, I'd say it climbs as high as the tether allows it - so when the tether broke, why didn't it climb? Or did it? And if so, what caused it to later descend?
I have so many questions that go beyond simply mocking the cost and feasibility of such a craft.
I was reading they were dragging 6700' of cable so I suspect it was around there, but higher is certainly possible.
KSCessnaDriver
Pattern Altitude
Anyone know what altitude it was at before breaking loose? I'm assuming thousands of feet, in which case what caused it to descend low enough to get within shotgun range (even if they were shooting slugs)? In the pictures posted with the horse, is that after taking the 100 rounds? Obviously it's partially deflated there, so I'm guessing yes.
I guess I'm just curious how this thing works in normal operation too. What controls altitude? If I had to guess, I'd say it climbs as high as the tether allows it - so when the tether broke, why didn't it climb? Or did it? And if so, what caused it to later descend?
I have so many questions that go beyond simply mocking the cost and feasibility of such a craft.
Its going to climb because it has more lift than it does weight. It would continue to climb until it reaches pressure altitude, which would depend on a number of things. At that point, to continue to climb, the pressure would probably begin to rise, which, should cause a valve to open to vent helium, which would reduce lift.
BillTIZ
Final Approach
It's not just the Blimp, it's the electronics on board, power capability, transmitting that radar data to the ground.
Yeah, envelopes are cheap. I wonder how much damage dragging into the power lines with the whole tether did to the electronics package though.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 15,644
- Location
- DXO124009
- Display Name
Display name:
Light and Sporty Guy
A lot of that was to meet the ADS-B mandate so ATC can get faster updates on the position of the supposed-to-be-tethered balloon.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Somewhere I read 16,000'.
D.M.D
Pre-Flight
RalphInCA
Cleared for Takeoff
Not new news. Has been true since the Wright Bros.
Hell, it was even true when balloons were the only way to fly.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Friction is a big deal. As is the eventual loss of spin stabilization on the rifle round. It'll tumble, and the friction will go way up. Not to mention not having the pointy end of the round not hitting the thing.
Dependent on real range, of course. Typical hunting rounds are relatively small projectiles with relatively large shell casings to launch them at 2500-3000 f/s but there's hard physical limits on how effective that methodology at really long ranges.
I'm still wondering if the person who claimed all the hunters in their area would be shooting at it, was just making that crap up, or if they think a majority of big game hunters are retards who look up thousands of feet and see what's obviously a big government owned thing flying overhead and think "Oh there's a good target to just randomly fire rounds into the sky at."
Then they added to the stupidity of the post by adding words like "skeet" to make it look like they had some sort of clue about firearms and ballistics. Let alone the thought process of typical person who's out wandering the woods looking for a large animal to take down.
I'm sure if I were a hunter my first thought at seeing anything flying over would be to light off a bunch of rounds into the sky. Just like the retards with high powered laser pointers. Because there would be all sorts of benefits to having brought down the giant white whale with a radar dick. Maybe they could mount it on the wall at home after turning the rest of it into tasty jerky and nobody would notice. Haha.
LOL. Right...
Just someone with a strange need to make anyone hunting big game with a rifle, look like a bubba so dumb that they'd shoot at a giant government aircraft, is my opinion.
I bet they shoot at airliners too. ROFL.
I laughed for a moment, and then all the shot up signs I've seen flashed through my mind leading to one of the funniest things I have seen. I'm heading down the final stretch of road to the airport at Harrison AR and the the game warden who I know from their plane there is sitting there in his truck, hmmm, I keep going around the bend and there is a big buck deer grazing on the side of the road. I pull in, park, get coffee... see the warden is still down the hill in truck, so I wander down to see if he has a problem and bring him a coffee. He tells me to get in the truck. "You see that buck?" "Yeah", "he's mechanical bait, hang out." Hadn't finished coffee when a guy the other direction stopped, got out of his truck, and shot it.
So as preposterous as the assumption may sound, I can see not all or even a majority, but some good ole boys gonna shoot themselves a blimp.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Some. Not a majority. Certainly not enough for a stereotype just because it's hunting season in rural Pennsylvania.
Shooting signs and purposeful mechanical "bait" isn't really a good example of why someone would fire aloft at an obviously large aircraft owned by the government, either.
The inherent or implied risk of shooting a road sign in the boonies is a lot lower than shooting at an aircraft. Even "bubba" knows this, as dumb as he may be.
The mechanical bait came with an implied benefit of eating well for a month without paying for it.
If the analogy worked, the government would be flying "bait balloons" over all rural hunting areas to entrap the bubbas and make some serious bucks on fines to pay for more bait balloons and enforcement personnel. Enforcement is a business like any other. Has to be a marketable "benefit" to the public that a politician can trade for votes, and enough money coming in to grow the department.
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,448
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
When I did mapping in Colorado I was warned about hunters who might shoot at airplanes, especially airplanes maneuvering over their hunting site. These were not "city guys" who were giving me the warning. Some were hunters themselves.
Tex_Mike
Pre-takeoff checklist
Well- were you ever shot at?
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,448
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
If I was, they were poor shots.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you fly low in 'shine country, you may very well get shot at. Likewise a guvmint balloon, which some folks will assume are revenuers.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Lots of people talk big.
The number of bullet holes found in aircraft not flying over war zones, seems to be indicative of a very big OWT that's propagated by stupidity and ignorance.
But it's fun for some to think all the bubbas lie in wait on the berms at the end of the runway at Podunk International -- just waiting there across the road in their ghille suits to poke holes in unsuspecting flying machines.
Matches their world view and opinion of others. Certainly more entertaining in their heads than reality.
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,448
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
There was a bullet found in one of the airplanes I once flew. It was lodged in the skin on top and had not penetrated the pressure vessel. From that, they concluded that it had been fired in the air and was on its way down when it hit. Probably happened when it was parked somewhere. No telling how long it had been there. It was found on an inspection.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Firing in the air at "nothing" has quite a bit of real world evidence. That one I won't argue.
KSCessnaDriver
Pattern Altitude
Take it you've never seen one. I flew blimps, I saw them, while it wasn't a common occurrence, they happened.
Thing is, it only takes one.
I know a 152 that got 3 doing touch and goes at Compton during the Rodney King riots.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Key word is "one". How many years did you fly them? Keep in mind the post said "every" hunter. Stereotype. Dumb.
Depends on what it hits. Mari's post proves "one" didn't even get noticed until an inspection on the jet.
I know a 152 that got 3 doing touch and goes at Compton during the Rodney King riots.
LOL. Kinda like folks who've been in the pattern and had no idea there was an earthquake going on until the tower said they were closing the tower and/or the runways for inspection. But that's totally "normal" in California... Only one overpass fell down while I was living there. Haha.
I was wondering what I might think if I looked up one day and saw that thing sauntering over the sky. When I see any aircraft in the sky my first presumption is that it is supposed to be there. Then I think about exactly where it is, where it is headed, how high it is to consider if it actually is supposed to be there. (Is it low near and headed towards an airport, or in the pattern and landing? Is it too big for some small strip nearby, or too low not near any airport, like it might be having trouble? Etc.) I wouldn't immediately think its a government spy blimp, or any sort of threat.
I guess its kind of like a Rorschach test -- you see what your mind wants to see.
The shape of this thing might raise some curiosity; the fact that it was not advertising a life insurance company (or have any recognizable markings) the same. If I was close enough to see the cable dragging, I would guess that it was not operating normally and that might think me to call someone. Most people would call 911, I suppose I'd do that first. I might call local TRACON.
I was driving past Farmingdale (KFRG) one day when the DirecTV blimp was landing, so I pulled over to watch. They had set up a temporary mooring mast, and had a ground crew of at least 6-8 people, maybe more, to grab the dangling mooring ropes and pull it in the last 20 yards. As it gets low, less than half the crew were on the rope when a gust picked up the nose. One guy held on a little too long, and got pulled about 3 feet off the ground before he cut bait.
I just read the thing came down near Williamsport, PA. Maybe it was taking itself back to Lycoming for an OH?
Last edited:
wanttaja
En-Route
Well... lack of holes in the target doesn't mean folks aren't *trying*. The firing situation is wildly different from what most shooters are familiar with. Shooting uphill (more bullet drop), at a longer range (depending on aircraft altitude) at a target flying a hundred feet per second faster than the shooter is used to. Target is crossing their line of sight...called a "deflection shot" in WWII air combat parlance, and it was considered the hardest shot to make.
We used to get the same sort of stories around here, relative to pilots flying over pot farms.
That said, I doubt it's that common. Most of the time when it happens, it's probably a joke with the shooter's buddies, no serious attempt to aim.
Saw an posting on another forum once...guy was landing on a public state-operated landing strip and his passenger saw two men standing in the woods next to the runway. One had his rifle aimed at the airplane and was tracking it on approach. Didn't apparently fire. My opinion was that the guy was probably just using his rifle's scope to look at the airplane.
But try THAT excuse in Compton.....
Ron Wanttaja
Tex_Mike
Pre-takeoff checklist
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,448
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
A long time ago I was busted by the Marfa balloon. They sent a US Customs Citation to meet us.
Tex_Mike
Pre-takeoff checklist
Were you coming across the border, or should I not ask?
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,448
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
We were doing low-level mapping in Big Bend National Park.
overdrive148
En-Route
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2013
- Messages
- 3,903
- Location
- Fort Worth, Texas
- Display Name
Display name:
overdrive148
Do they observe planes coming back and forth or? Not familiar with Marfa balloons
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,448
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
We spent quite a bit of time maneuvering at low altitude (1,500 AGL). Before anyone says anything about flying low in a national park, I'll say that the job was for the NPS. I was told that we appeared and disappeared a number of times so they thought it suspicious.
overdrive148
En-Route
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2013
- Messages
- 3,903
- Location
- Fort Worth, Texas
- Display Name
Display name:
overdrive148
Interesting. Did they roll up in the citation expecting to arrest you or something?