Midair at HWY

wsuffa

wsuffa

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Bill S.
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KHEF
http://www.wtop.com/120/2881625/Va-police-2-planes-crash-1-pilot-dead-1-hurt

Appears to be a midair. A lot of training at Warrenton 'cause it's just outside the SFRA. Very close to Bealton Flying Circus and a skydiving operation at a second airport near Warrenton. And very close to FLUKY intersection, an SFRA gate.

I was up today, but I prefer to avoid HWY when I can due to the amount of traffic.

Y'all be careful out there....
 
I was over there and it sure was a midair. Didn't see it but saw the wreckage. Very sad.
 
bigblockz8 said:
I was over there and it sure was a midair. Didn't see it but saw the wreckage. Very sad.
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I hope it wasn't one of the Flying Circus planes....

That airspace is risky - in addition to everything else, it's also essentially a practice area for the schools out of HEF. When I was up Saturday, there were no less then 6 targets in that small area on my TIS display.
 
wsuffa said:
I hope it wasn't one of the Flying Circus planes....

That airspace is risky - in addition to everything else, it's also essentially a practice area for the schools out of HEF. When I was up Saturday, there were no less then 6 targets in that small area on my TIS display.
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I don't think that they were. I saw smoke in one area so I assume fire and the other was a pa-28 with one wing. I got turned around before I could see more.
Six targets isn't a lot. Sometimes when I'm out my way in the SFRA at DEALE we can't even do maneuvers because we have 5-10 in the area. Practice areas are just too small.
 
bigblockz8 said:
I don't think that they were. I saw smoke in one area so I assume fire and the other was a pa-28 with one wing. I got turned around before I could see more.
Six targets isn't a lot. Sometimes when I'm out my way in the SFRA at DEALE we can't even do maneuvers because we have 5-10 in the area. Practice areas are just too small.
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6 targets is a bunch in a small area almost directly under/over the FLUKY intersection.

Best as I can tell, this collision was within a mile of FLUKY. Really bad place to be practicing, given that it's the primary SFRA entry/exit point for HEF, and folks headed southeast (that weren't filed over Brooke Gate) will be headed over the intersection to avoid the DEMO1 MOA.

I'll be doing an IPC next weekend (my way of staying current) - I always pay for the instructor time to go further out. Both HWY and CJR are primary practice airports for the schools at HEF.
 
I landed at CJR about 4 PM. Not seen any more details than what we've had here.
 
I'm still here. I just found out about it after one of my coworkers mentioned that they are happy to see that I'm alive and well.

What a real bummer, but this is why we always do clearing turns before every maneuver.

It's kinda scary because I was out at Luray yesterday.
 
Of interest to the recent string of posts about the crash/burn Cirrus accidents in this case the plane that crashed/burned was a bo.
 
What a coincidence! I was there probably around noon time ish. Maybe a little later. They were mowing the lawn and it looked like they just started. An excellent day to fly there, though.
 
HerrGruyere said:
What a coincidence! I was there probably around noon time ish. Maybe a little later. They were mowing the lawn and it looked like they just started. An excellent day to fly there, though.
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Must have missed you by just a few minutes. I was there shortly before noon. Nice day to fly, great folks down at LUA.

AvGas is $1.00/gallon cheaper than HEF.
 
Very tragic, although miraculousthat there was one survivor. The thought of a Mid air like fire in flight is like icewater on my spine:(
 
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The Bonanza was occupied by the owner and a gentleman I knew - the Chief CFI at the Aviation Adventures Warrenton Office. They were doing a flight review. I'm not going to give names until the media does, but this information just came out to the Aviation Adventures list so it's known in the local community.

Everybody be careful, ok?
 
Very unfortunate, Tim. I saw that email, too.....

Let's keep their families in our prayers & all resolve to fly safely. And carefully.
 
wsuffa said:
Must have missed you by just a few minutes. I was there shortly before noon. Nice day to fly, great folks down at LUA.

AvGas is $1.00/gallon cheaper than HEF.
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Yeah my CFI went on and on about how nice the people at LUA are. And boy it was a b-e-a-utiful day to fly yesterday!
 
Every time I hear the term mid-air I cringe. No matter how diligent you are with your scan, there are some blocked lines of sight due to structure and relative position where another A/C can come at you and be totally unseen. I lost a good friend to one in 2009, been in two near misses myself. You just have to shake your head and say "Damn". Tragic.
 
The surviving pilot is an Accident Investigator for the NTSB and was based at CJR (active in the CAF there), T.R. Proven. The Free-Lance Star says that he made calls to his wife, the CJR airport (to have them close up his hangar) and the FAA prior to being taken away by the ambulance.

The fatals aboard the Bonanza were flight instructor (Aviation Adventure's chief CFI) Paul Gardella and the Bonanza owner (who I believe is a local doctor from Bethesda). The rumor was he was conducting a BFR.


IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 6658R Make/Model: BE35 Description: 35 Bonanza
Date: 05/28/2012 Time: 1600

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed

LOCATION
City: WARRENTON State: VA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT COLLIDED WITH ANOTHER AIRCRAFT IN FLIGHT. WARRENTON, VA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 2
# Crew: 0 Fat: 2 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:


OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: WASHINGTON IAD, DC (EA27) Entry date: 05/29/2012

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 23SC Make/Model: PA28 Description: PA-28 CHEROKEE, ARROW, WARRIOR, ACHER, D
Date: 05/28/2012 Time: 1600

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Minor Mid Air: Y Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: WARRENTON State: VA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT COLLIDED WITH ANOTHER AIRCRAFT WHILE IN FLIGHT. WARRENTON, VA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 1 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:


OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Approach Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: WASHINGTON IAD, DC (EA27) Entry date: 05/29/2012
 
flyingron said:
The surviving pilot is an Accident Investigator for the NTSB and was based at CJR (active in the CAF there), T.R.

The fatals aboard the Bonanza were flight instructor (Aviation Adventure's chief CFI) Paul Gardella and the Bonanza owner (who I believe is a local doctor from Bethesda). The rumor was he was conducting a BFR.


IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 6658R Make/Model: BE35 Description: 35 Bonanza
Date: 05/28/2012 Time: 1600

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed

LOCATION
City: WARRENTON State: VA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT COLLIDED WITH ANOTHER AIRCRAFT IN FLIGHT. WARRENTON, VA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 2
# Crew: 0 Fat: 2 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:


OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: WASHINGTON IAD, DC (EA27) Entry date: 05/29/2012

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 23SC Make/Model: PA28 Description: PA-28 CHEROKEE, ARROW, WARRIOR, ACHER, D
Date: 05/28/2012 Time: 1600

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Minor Mid Air: Y Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: WARRENTON State: VA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT COLLIDED WITH ANOTHER AIRCRAFT WHILE IN FLIGHT. WARRENTON, VA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 1 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:


OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Approach Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: WASHINGTON IAD, DC (EA27) Entry date: 05/29/2012
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Apparently only one of the planes was in a Mid Air. ;)
 
flyingron said:
The surviving pilot is an Accident Investigator for the NTSB and was based at CJR (active in the CAF there), T.R. Proven. The Free-Lance Star says that he made calls to his wife, the CJR airport (to have them close up his hangar) and the FAA prior to being taken away by the ambulance.

The fatals aboard the Bonanza were flight instructor (Aviation Adventure's chief CFI) Paul Gardella and the Bonanza owner (who I believe is a local doctor from Bethesda). The rumor was he was conducting a BFR.
Click to expand...

This is sad all around.

I believe Proven was with the FAA, not NTSB (Linked-In profile).

There is also a rumor that the Bo' owner was employed as an aeromedical expert by the NTSB.
 
Never happy to hear about people dying. It's a big sky and the odds of this happening are very small...not that the people here are any less dead because of it.

The piper's missing wing came from a tree on the ground, not from hitting another airplane. The general public will probably take away something different.
 
wsuffa said:
This is sad all around.

I believe Proven was with the FAA, not NTSB (Linked-In profile).

There is also a rumor that the Bo' owner was employed as an aeromedical expert by the NTSB.
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Yes, you are right...brain fart on my part.
The doctor was James Duncan, MD and yes he did work with the NTSB. He was with NASA for a long time.
 
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flyingron said:
Yes, you are right...brain fart on my part.
The doctor was James Duncan, MD and yes he did work with the NTSB. He was with NASA for a long time.
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The NTSB has officially delegated the investigation to the Transportation Safety Board of Canada: Link

This one is going to be very high profile given that employees (including an accident investigator) of the FAA and NTSB were both involved, as was the chief instructor at a flight school.
 
wsuffa said:
This is sad all around.

I believe Proven was with the FAA, not NTSB (Linked-In profile).

There is also a rumor that the Bo' owner was employed as an aeromedical expert by the NTSB.
Click to expand...
TR Proven is someone I consider a good friend - well respected, a consummate airman, and an FAA guy that everyone liked. He mentored me for several years in planning and executing ground and air duties at Leesburg's air show.

I'm glad he survived, but man.... there's NO happy ending from a fatal accident, for anyone involved including the survivors.

We all know that flying is risky. Most of us have ghosts of friends who died doing what we love. Let's all resolve not to make any more, please.
 
TMetzinger said:
TR Proven is someone I consider a good friend - well respected, a consummate airman, and an FAA guy that everyone liked. He mentored me for several years in planning and executing ground and air duties at Leesburg's air show.

I'm glad he survived, but man.... there's NO happy ending from a fatal accident, for anyone involved including the survivors.

We all know that flying is risky. Most of us have ghosts of friends who died doing what we love. Let's all resolve not to make any more, please.
Click to expand...

Tim,

It's always bad, but seems worse when it hits close to home. Many, many years ago I learned that lesson (early in my days of interest in flying) - nearly lost a friend in NJ. He spent almost a year being "reconstructed" (and that's the best way to put it) after crashing.

Aside from so many folks knowing the people involved, the seniority of the pilots & instructor is something that catches the mind: if it can happen to people with this much knowledge and experience, it can happen to anyone.

Resolved to take even more care going forward.

BIll
 
"Canadian officials are taking over the investigation into a deadly Memorial Day mid-air collision because the planes involved were owned by federal aviation and transportation officials."

I see cruel irony in the situation. I am confused though because I can't picture two such people getting into an accident like this. Maybe the old high and low wing issue but two low wings and then the pilots?
 
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...and the third was a very high time CFI. It's very disheartening that this happened with three extremely experienced pilots involved.

While I'm no lover of the SFRA/FRZ nonsense, I'm not convinced this had anything to do with it. In fact, I was flying about an hour earlier in the same area. We were close in to Cherokee going into CJR. We had three pilots on the plane (I was in the right seat of a friend's Navion and my pilot wife was in the back). Still only one of us caught the traffic.

I'm kind of paranoid about traffic. I've had traffic reported to me that I never did see and I've had traffic I didn't see until it went by that might have been a problem. I regularly get radar service and have two electronic systems in the plane and almost always fly with another pilot.

What we don't have up in this area that may have helped this is a regular following system for training traffic in the area. If you fly in the vicinity of LYH (I pass through there 52 times a year) you'll hear the instructional flights coming out there regularly reporting in to ROA approach with the designated practice area and altitude that they will be working in. It's voluntary but I think it works well.
 
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Problem is you can't see what you don't see. I experience this every day on the motorcycle, which is functionally invisible to just about everyone. A good idea to be paranoid, odds are the dead CFI was as well. But you takes your chances, especially flying in busy airspace. If you want to be safe you've got to hang it up.

That said, I bet a lot more guys still fly into IMC, run out of gas, and do other stupid and very avoidable stuff to get dead. There are usually fewer mid-air collisions in the US on a yearly basis than the fingers of my left hand.
 
My money is on: "Failure to see and avoid" in the report. And if Canadian beauracracy is anything like American, it will take ~2yrs before the final report is released.

Condolences to the families and friends.
 
wsuffa said:
Tim,

It's always bad, but seems worse when it hits close to home. ...

Aside from so many folks knowing the people involved, the seniority of the pilots & instructor is something that catches the mind: if it can happen to people with this much knowledge and experience, it can happen to anyone.

Resolved to take even more care going forward.

BIll
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Well put Bill.
 
Jaybird180 said:
My money is on: "Failure to see and avoid" in the report. And if Canadian beauracracy is anything like American, it will take ~2yrs before the final report is released.

Condolences to the families and friends.
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The US isn't anywhere near that bad. I suspect that you are right about it being a see and avoid issue. We've got two VFR targets, most likely not receiving any ATC service, that collided. It was a beautiful clear day (about 5000 SCT).

I suspect we'll get them pouring over radar tracks from PCT to see what the relative orientations of the aircraft were and maybe come up with something that will be useful.
 
I wonder what the CFI was doing in the plane though. Were they practicing instrument flight, was it a flight review, or did the CFI just come along for a ride? The report will hopefully explain the entire situation.
 
bigblockz8 said:
I wonder what the CFI was doing in the plane though. Were they practicing instrument flight, was it a flight review, or did the CFI just come along for a ride? The report will hopefully explain the entire situation.
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Word on DC Pilots was he was conducting a BFR.
 
If you think midairs only happens to GA planes check this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fEOjvxNlFI&feature=gv Two airliners at FL 360 under ATC control, both TCAS equipped, in VFR weather and a total of six pilots onboard collide killing over 100 passengers.

Pilot ratings makes no difference. The reality is that spotting planes in flight with your eyeballs only is very limited. You need to have some form of traffic awareness device to warn you of an impending conflict that may lead you into a collision.

José
 
Piloto said:
If you think midairs only happens to GA planes check this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fEOjvxNlFI&feature=gv Two airliners at FL 360 under ATC control, both TCAS equipped, in VFR weather and a total of six pilots onboard collide killing over 100 passengers.
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Yeah, but that was supposedly under POSITIVE CONTROL. Massive ATC screw up. It's recognized that see and avoid won't work up there. There's also the Gol v. Embraer crash (also supposedly under positive control).

In the Sumerduck case, see and avoid was the ONLY game in play.
 
Such a tragedy, as is always the case. When reading about any accident I look upward and offer another "Thanks."
Today I much prefer looking at photo #1 which was taken recently with 0.4 hours on 4 new cylinders, than remembering photo #2 of March 14, 2004.
Same runway, same line of flight; the former a departure, #2 the result of a T & G when the wind suddenly changed from right CW to Right Quartering TW.
Condolences to our latest lost souls and their families.

HR
 

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