Mental health

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Old97, May 29, 2019.

  1. Old97

    Old97 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    my stepson is just not well. At 28 he has spent the last 10 years in addiction.

    We are moving my wife’s mother into senior living and he is acting up because we won’t let him continue to live in her home, which we are going to sell.

    He has probably made about 15k total in his employment stints over the last decade but he thinks we should rent to him. He cant find a roommate because he is not stable enough and always broke.

    Bottom line is you generally cannot force mental health care on someone who needs, with specific exceptions.

    It doesn’t bother me - although i do have some sympathy for him -but I feel bad for my wife. Its hard on her.

    Just venting.
     
  2. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Mental health issues really suck for the family when the patient thinks nothing is wrong. There is only so much you can do.
     
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  3. Sundancer

    Sundancer En-Route

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    One of the toughest health issues to deal with. And it is so hard to write off a child - I feel for your wife. And no way for you to avoid some of the stress, since she'll be dealing with it. . .

    If he hasn't hit rehab yet, it might take some tough love - he either goes, or goes away. There ain't gonna be any personal progress while he remains a junkie and/or a drunk.

    Some people, it takes multile attempts, but they do recover. And some don't - genetics, personality/psychology, the tools just aren't there.

    My wife has a relative that's bolted from rehab twice, in the first few days; also a twenty-something, and a decade long addict. I can see his family is just about done, emotionally spent. I'd like to suggest they hold a funeral/ memorial service for him, invite him to the event. Then shake hands, give him a hug, and tell him goodbye. And get on with thier lives.
     
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  4. Eric Stoltz

    Eric Stoltz Line Up and Wait

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    This might be his rock bottom. Might be the best thing for him. I sure wish addicted folks would give AA or NA a shot, just for 3 months. If it isn't for them, they can have all their misery back free of charge. Maybe even inpatient rehab followed by 90 in 90 IOP? All that treatment stuff sure has been helpful for a few million people.

    There are resources for the family of the addict, I'm sure you already know. It's a family disease for sure.

    PoA is a family, in various states of functionality. I appreciate your ventilations. PM if you want.
     
  5. alfadog

    alfadog En-Route

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    Best of luck to all involved. And it is a matter of luck, at least as far as you are concerned. There are different paths for him to follow, but that is ultimately his choice to make.

    In the best of possible outcomes, perhaps one day he will be able to say what I say: don't curse the path that brought you to where you are.
     
  6. Old97

    Old97 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks all for the kind words. As of today he has elected to be homeless rather than seek care.
     
  7. overdrive148

    overdrive148 En-Route

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    Sorry to hear that. I am personally familiar with someone who had many issues - major depressive/anxiety/panic/major motivation, self-worth and self-harm issues/agoraphobia... the list goes on. After years of support from friends and family and a lot of self-discipline and work, they were able to get on their feet, fight their demons, and now live a relatively normal life and truly enjoys being alive.

    I talked to their therapist early on asking what I could do to help and I was warned that there was nothing I could do to make them better or want to live. They had to want it for themselves and no matter how hard I tried, they could still refuse to change. I can't imagine what it would've been like if they didn't.

    I hope he eventually changes his ways, but unfortunately it's out of your control. The feeling is uncomfortable to type out much less go through personally. Also here if you need to PM.
     
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  8. overdrive148

    overdrive148 En-Route

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    Also as an aside, I have a stepbrother who is in his mid-30s who has no degree, no car, no driver's license, and a part-part time job sorting mail about 350 feet from where he lives. He has no interest in any of those things as long as he lives in my stepmom's old house as it falls apart around him and he gets a ride to/from work and to town for groceries and the bank. He has probably earned less than 15k in his life as well. I don't think it was mental health issues that made him that way just a lack of motivation and being enabled to be that way.

    I wish he would change and make something of himself. I have told him I could help him get a job here in TX if he wanted but he has zero interest of leaving his shack in the CA desert.
     
  9. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Pattern Altitude

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    Very sorry to hear. It seems some people just can’t be helped. Nothing wrong with trying but if it gets to the point of potentially capsizing your own boat, let them be. I realize it’s not easy with family.
     
  10. alfadog

    alfadog En-Route

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    IANAD but sounds like depression:

    The list of depression symptoms includes:
    • Lack of interest or pleasure in anything
    • Significant increase or decrease in eating
    • Insomnia or over-sleeping
    • Restlessness or being slowed down physically
    • Fatigue or low energy
    • <omitted rest of list>
    Another aspect in some:
    Numbness: One scenario that causes people to feel depressed without feeling sad is when depression causes them to feel primarily numb. They don’t feel sad, angry, joyful, or really anything at all. They may feel an amorphous misery, but no specific emotion. They may go through the motions of living without the feelings that motivate and satisfy people. This numbness can be experienced as suffering, but in such an ill-defined way that it isn’t identified as sadness.
     
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  11. Fiveslide

    Fiveslide Line Up and Wait

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    How many of you had tremendous help either buying or being given a home? It seems a lot of young folk expect and plan on inheriting a roof over their head.

    I saw hand-me-down houses a lot in the rural area I'm from. People seemed to hop around renting or purchase a single wide and wait for their grandparents to pass so they could move into the house. I see people my age get TONS of help with housing.

    One of my in-laws did that. Well, actually, he lived at his parents house until he got married, then was given the house of the recently deceased.

    My brother got married, soon after his wife's parents, who are very well off, bought them a house. They do have to make payments, but don't get charged interest.

    My wife's brother got married his wife's parents bought them a farm with a house. They lived in it for free for while until they saved enough to get a mortgage. Her parents kept most of the land, just sold them the house and a few acres.

    I bought my first house at 22 with no help. Got foreclosed upon in the crash last decade because I was too proud to ask for help. I'd been laid off from my engineering job, couldn't find another, became a truck driver for 5 years until I started looking to get back into engineering. Recovered from that setback without any help from parents.
     
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  12. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I had help getting to the 20% down payment so that I could buy a house right after college (obviously not outright). It's been a very good and responsible decision that helped me start out on the right foot, and I was very thankful for the help.

    I have no problems helping my kids similarly provided they put in effort and show responsibility. If not, no dice.

    The correct answer is not the same for all kids.
     
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  13. Fiveslide

    Fiveslide Line Up and Wait

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    Yeah, a gift for a down payment, I don't think, counts as tremendous help. It's pretty common.

    My siblings and in-laws, they went well beyond that. That group may never have been able to buy a house otherwise.
     
  14. Fiveslide

    Fiveslide Line Up and Wait

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    I want to add also, that I'm not against giving help. My son is a nonverbal autistic child that may never lead a normal life that includes a career, mortgage and such.

    My goal is to set ourselves up financially so that IF he can't work, he doesn't have to worry about money or a home.
     
  15. Cooter

    Cooter Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Part of the problem with those being referenced here is that the culture has categorized it as a mental issue, when that isn’t it at all. The issue is most often behavior, and the choice to value certain things over others.
     
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  16. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    I know it’s a tough choice, but it’s really the only choice.

    We’re on the back end of the same situation...my wife’s uncle, an alcoholic and a few other things that kind of go along with that, recently passed away. When his mother died, he basically cleaned out her bank accounts and claimed her house. Her will, filed at the church, “disappeared”.

    His brother and sister chose the “family is more important” route, and let him be. Over the intervening years, he has distanced himself from the family. Both of his siblings predeceased him.

    Now the nieces, nephews, and in-laws (primarily my FIL) get to clean up the mess. Both literally (a dumpster for the contents of the house) and figuratively.
     
  17. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

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    I have a relative like that. Drug addict. Just cannot for the life of him pull himself out of it. In and out of rehab for years while my relatives figure things out. Depression issues run in the family too. Hell, my mother never held a stable job after we relocated 20+ years ago, sorta related, sorta not. She changed jobs within the WEEK sometimes..

    It's hard to figure out why some people don't have the mental fortitude to pull themselves outta the funk they get themselves into, but I guess that's why they are there after all, eh? You really can't force help on someone that doesn't want it. No exceptions really. Even IF they accept the help (perhaps out of guilt or to appease you), they aren't really ready to follow through with ongoing treatment so your efforts are temporary at best.

    Some people are meant to hit rock bottom. What bothers me is that constant "saving" that occurs, preventing people from hitting rock bottom where they may accept help. Instead, we save them. And they get so used to being saved, they never actually HIT rock bottom. They just keep hitting this warm fluffy safety net and then doing it again..and again..and again. Until they unfortunately die, or completely bankrupt their supporters (or both).

    You have to have a catalyst to affect change. Something that shakes them up and makes them think, "Oh crap, maybe this isn't the life for me". Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Sometimes the best thing to do, for both the addict and the relatives is to sever ties. Do it conditionally, make them earn back your trust.

    People who care too much are hurt when they can't "save" someone but remember the only people who want to be saved can actually BE saved.
     
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  18. overdrive148

    overdrive148 En-Route

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    I am almost convinced that his issue is a behavioral one vs a mental one. My dad has offered to pay for community college and a drivers license multiple times and he has turned them down.

    "I don't have a car so why would I need a driver's license" was what he said both times. He thinks that living anywhere in the world is the same aa where he lives now. Even while he gets free rides to town from my stepmom he complains about timing, even getting supplied paint and maintenance items for the house he lives in he doesn't do the work. It seems completely different than the other case I mentioned.
     
  19. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

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    Which makes it a mental issue (improper thinking.)
     
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  20. Cooter

    Cooter Ejection Handle Pulled

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    The suggestion is that they *should* behave a certain way. That’s a moral judgement. I’m sure they can add, subtract and speak normally. There’s a difference in not being able to properly interpret reality (delusional or handicapped) and choosing to act a certain way.
    You can PM me if you want to engage further.
     
  21. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    I have a sister who was severely injured in a bicycle accident as a teen, and she really lost her way for a number of years. She wound up as a restaurant chef for 15 years, then decided to go to nursing school. She's been an RN for the last 10 years. Sometimes hitting rock bottom is what motivates someone to change.

    My dad let me live with him rent free for three years when I got out of school. I saved up $20,000 and used it to put a down payment on a townhouse.

    One of the very rich famous people (don't remember which one) said his goal was to set up his children so that they could do anything, but that they couldn't do nothing.

    My eldest got her first job with actual W-2 income this summer. The younger one has applied for some, but has not gotten hired yet. I'd like her to hold off until she takes her ACT this summer, I want her focusing on the test and the volunteer work she's doing rather than a job. Once she takes that, if she wants to find something that's OK with me. I told them both that whatever they made I would match up to $2000, with this one catch: I'm putting it in a Roth 401K in their name.
     
  22. Crashnburn

    Crashnburn Line Up and Wait

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    Not to minimize anyone's pain, but this thread reminds me of the old joke: "How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one, but it has to really want to be changed."

    I'm lucky, I guess. In my family, maybe not everyone has had as much success as others, but we all try (and sometimes I try my YF's patience) and often, the fun is as much in addressing the challenge, as actually succeeding.
     
  23. Gerhardt

    Gerhardt En-Route

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    First, from the sound of it this guy is nowhere near rock bottom. I wouldn't think there would be many people here who could really visualize how low rock bottom really is. For most of us, when you think you're at an all-time low it could get so much worse.

    I've never been a fan of people describing addicts as people who just need to change their behavior. Like the decision is as easy as just deciding to not have a second cup of coffee.

    With addicts, it's tough because there's nothing you can do 99.999% of the time.
     
  24. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Just this morning, a kid in training on my crew admitted to having suicidal thoughts and is no longer on "status." No warning signs, nothing and now we have to have someone with him 24/7. Its common in this career field for people to realize that they can't do this job and go this route. I've seen it more often than I care to remember.
     
  25. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    One of my worst nightmares has me sitting in a chair in a brightly lit room, with all the lights directed at me, and there are several people sitting at a long table, and they are all yelling at me over and over that I will have to become a controller.....


    I gotta lot of respect for those that can do it.
     
  26. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    I have a similar nightmare in where the people at the long table are asking me why I became a controller. :oops:
     
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  27. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    I had a guy yesterday who must've been training, he was rapid fire, when he pointed out traffic to a guy. Before the guy could respond, a supervisor (I assume) popped in and gave an airliner a turn onto the ILS, the other guy must have forgotten or mis-prioritized. The guy got right back on it though, I don't think I could handle it.
     
  28. Old97

    Old97 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yeah maybe you are right about rock bottom. Its hard to see though. You pretty much have to be prepared for them to die. Thats hard to do.
     
  29. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    I think it's fair to say that the change of behavior is harder for them than for those of us deciding not to eat that doughnut or having a second cup of coffee, but the implication that comes with saying "it's a disease" is that it's something that the person doesn't have responsibility for getting. I think that's where people have a hard time finding much sympathy, not unlike when you have a life-long chain smoker who gets lung cancer.

    I think I've told this story before, but can't recall for sure. When I was in college there was a kid who one of my friends introduced me to. Kid was smart, interested in cars, had his own computer business in high school and did well with it. Had a bright future.

    He started volunteering at a drug rehab center to learn from the addicts about hard drugs, then proceeded to start with... I forget but pretty sure heroin and cocaine, probably 8-balls or whatever those combination shots are that kill so many people. I very quickly blocked him and I wrote him off as a person. Told the friend who introduced us that the kid would OD one day and die. My friend said he seemed to have all the amounts figured out so he didn't approve of the drug use but thought he'd be fine. I told my friend he was a fool.

    In the end I was right. The kid OD'd and died somewhere around age 20.

    It was as stupid as it gets. The kid literally intentionally decided he wanted to go start doing hard drugs. He sought it out and went to lengths to research what and how to do. I have no sympathy.

    But that's a very polarized example. I've talked to plenty of doctors who've seen heroin addictions start with an athlete getting a pain prescription after they have some injury and then get hooked. In that situation, it's more grey. Some people are more prone to becoming addicted than others and it's not intentional but something they fell into. I can have some sympathy there.

    Regardless, it's a hard situation for the friends and family, and the parents most of all. Nobody wants to bury their children, and I'd have to imagine that death due to an addiction would be one of the hardest reasons.
     
  30. Fallsrider

    Fallsrider Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    That, and suicide. Losing a child to suicide also seems like it would be incredibly difficult to understand. I would always question myself as to why I didn't see it, and could I have done more to help them.
     
  31. Fiveslide

    Fiveslide Line Up and Wait

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    I will have to be truthful to the faa on the day I go for a third class, so might as well share my experience here.

    I'll admit this has happened to me after an injury. I was, at the time, entirely sober, and I am now for over a year, but I got hooked. Never thought I would be one to fall down that trap. I started taking Percocet because of the need and the fun, rather than pain, which was long gone. Never heroin or other drugs, just the pain pills.

    I'm part a program, monthly tests and weekly therapy, haven't relapsed ever, got way too much to lose and so much to look forward to.
     
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  32. Cooter

    Cooter Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I’ve been curious to know what drives the attraction to pain pills. The times I’ve been on them following surgery or accidents, I’ve only taken them for about two days and stopped. I hated the grogginess (and other side effects). I understand pursuing euphoric or relaxing drugs, but not pain pills unless there’s chronic pain.
     
  33. RJM62

    RJM62 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm the same way. I took one Vicodin after getting my gall bladder removed and decided I'd rather have the pain. Then I got a bottle when a tooth exploded and I needed a root canal, and never took a single one. I also declined the sedation when I got my colonoscopy. I guess I have a high pain tolerance and a low drooling tolerance. I'd make a terrible addict.

    That being said, I think it's the height of idiocy and barbarism to restrict opioids from patients suffering from chronic pain for fear that they'll become dependent. Who cares? Opioids are cheap; so as long as they continue to have a safe, legal source, who cares if they become dependent? If their pain can eventually be relieved by surgery or some other method, titrate them off the drugs. But until then, I think it's sadistic to let people suffer excruciating pain every moment of every day of their lives for fear that they might become dependent on the thing that can relieve it.

    Rich
     
  34. G-force

    G-force Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The same drug can give different effects to different people. I too never saw the attraction of say Vicoden after being given it after a few surgeries. It dulled the pain for a few day untill I could switch to Advil and that was it. However the last surgery, they prescribed be a heavier dose. On accident, I discovered that if taken on an empty stomach, I got a nice 30 minute window of being high, zero pain, and the most relaxed, blissfull zen without a worry in the world. I could totally see chasing that feeling, especially if struggling with mental issues. I tried it one more time on an empty stomach and it scared me that it would be too easy to like that feeling so I flushed the rest of them. I can totally understand how people end up on Heroin after getting hooked on prescription opiods after an injury or surgery.

     
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  35. Eric Stoltz

    Eric Stoltz Line Up and Wait

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    I'm just as curious as to why you were able to stop taking them after two days. ****ing blows my mind anyone can do that. But, obviously, your brain is not anywhere on the wide grey line of addiction. You probably can leave a half empty beer at the bar because you felt "bloated." I am grateful for those who never have to worry about addiction. I am grateful for being in life long recovery.
     
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  36. Fiveslide

    Fiveslide Line Up and Wait

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    Honestly, for me, it was probably boredom that did me in, and a rocky time in our marriage. We also have a nonverbal autistic child, love him to pieces, but not being able to communicate with him was difficult. I was doing a little CAD work from home and didn't have anything else to fill my time. I did start volunteering at a federal park, I'd just take the pills and clean campsites or prune along the road. It made me feel different, which is what I felt I needed at the time.

    I was shocked at how quickly I became dependent.
     
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  37. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Was grandma the one who would give him cash anytime 'his car broke' ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
  38. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Thank you for sharing your story, and congratulations on being in recovery.

    I'm with you. I've gotten vicodin a couple times - once for the "cap and stow" STC that prevents further children and once for wisdom teeth removal. For wisdom teeth I took no sedation (just Novocaine), drove myself home, and thought "I won't use any of the pain pills." Once the Novocaine started wearing off I thought "Ooh, that was a bad idea." But I took one or two then, one or two before bed so I knew I wouldn't wake up in pain, and after that I was done. Similar for my STC, although I think for that it was 2 days, and I decided to take a couple before the local anesthetic wore off. Didn't like them, didn't like the side effects, threw out the rest of the bottle - no issues.

    A good friend from high school who recently died from cancer was a doctor, specifically a psychiatrist, and his area of focus was addiction. He said the biggest aspect comes down to how each person's brain reacts to the various drugs, and specifically how much dopamine gets released as a result. Some people, like you and me, don't get any dopamine (or at least not any significant amounts) released triggered by pain pills. For some people it's much more significant. He was saying that heroin for many produces a release of something like 100x more dopamine than an orgasm. So then even sex doesn't do much for you unless you're also on drugs during when getting to that point.

    Another thing he told me about was how he would get patients come in who had many addictions, like 7 or 8. So they would work on them one at a time. He said generally the only one he couldn't get them to kick was smoking. I found that very interesting on multiple levels. One, I always thought of addiction as more binary, not talking about having multiple addictions. Two, I found it interesting that smoking was the one they couldn't kick.

    This friend had always been unhealthy with more surgeries than I can count. As a result had been on many pain medications, pretty much every pain medication known to man at some point or another. Like us, he never had any addiction issues, but it gave him an interesting perspective, knowing first hand how essentially every legally obtainable pain medication impacted him as a person. He also was very clear that he felt doctors were who were at fault for the prescription opioid epidemic by prescribing opioids too often and in too big of bottles.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
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  39. Gerhardt

    Gerhardt En-Route

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    Someone having multiple addictions wouldn't surprise me. Nor would the part about smoking being the hard one to kick. I smoked half of one or two cigarettes in jr. high, but that was it. Never smoked pot or tried heavier drugs. I might drink a beer/wine twice a year. Ironically, my aversion to drugs isn't based or morals or laws, it's that I think I'd really, really like it and wouldn't be able to stop. Which is why I think once a person has an addiction it's no longer a binary "yes/no" behavioral choice.

    It's probably more like a "yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/yes/no" behavioral choice. An addict knows not to do it. Most WANT to choose "no" every single time. To break it down in simplest terms....how many people here would like to be at their ideal weight and actually are at their ideal weight? And I'd think for most people it would be exponentially easier to kick an overeating habit than drugs or other activities.
     
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  40. Old97

    Old97 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    She was definitely part of the problem. Not healthy for those two to be living together. Narcissistic enabler + bipolar addict.

    He didnt have his **** together nearly enough to have a car