Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

matthammer said:
I'd like to see AoA gauges as an option on GA airplanes. I would NOT, however, support making them mandatory. I'd tend to think AoA gauges wouldn't really even help with most of the low altitude stall/spin accidents anyway. Those accidents usually happen after the pilot got miles behind the airplane in the first place, and an AoA gauge would likely go completely unnoticed while they're yanking and banking in a panic.
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At the very least an AoA gauge provides the opportunity to greatly enhance one's understanding of where the low speed edges of the envelope are. In addition it's not hard to train someone to at least glance at an AoA indicator anytime you're maneuvering near the ground or in any situation where a stall might have serious consequences, much like I learned a long time ago to check my car's rear view mirror any time I find it necessary to brake hard or in an unusual place. Finally most of the Alpha Systems AoA systems (which sell for $600-1600) have a voice alert that should get one's attention even in a high stress situation.
 
gismo said:
At the very least an AoA gauge provides the opportunity to greatly enhance one's understanding of where the low speed edges of the envelope are. In addition it's not hard to train someone to at least glance at an AoA indicator anytime you're maneuvering near the ground or in any situation where a stall might have serious consequences, much like I learned a long time ago to check my car's rear view mirror any time I find it necessary to brake hard or in an unusual place. Finally most of the Alpha Systems AoA systems (which sell for $600-1600) have a voice alert that should get one's attention even in a high stress situation.
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So essentially I'd be paying $600-1600 so I could hear both the voice alert of my AoA indicator and the buzz of my stall horn at the same time? Not to mention the cues I should get based on my airspeed, seat-of-the-pants feel for load factor, and a feel for the effectiveness of my flight controls. I just don't see the value. At least, I don't see the value amounting to anywhere near that required to make an AoA indicator "mandatory."
 
matthammer said:
So essentially I'd be paying $600-1600 so I could hear both the voice alert of my AoA indicator and the buzz of my stall horn at the same time?
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AoA gauges are not just about stall. They also give you best glide, best rate of climb, best angle of climb, best approach, max range cruise, optimum cruise, max endurance glide, and best turn. Your stall horn doesn't do that, and you'd need a calculator and a lot of data that isn't in your POH to figure all those speeds for every weight from emply+pilot to max gross so you can use your ASI for that. OTOH, once you figure the AoA's for each of those things and put them on the AoA gauge, you have it all at a glance, instantly, regardless of weight.
 
matthammer said:
So essentially I'd be paying $600-1600 so I could hear both the voice alert of my AoA indicator and the buzz of my stall horn at the same time? Not to mention the cues I should get based on my airspeed, seat-of-the-pants feel for load factor, and a feel for the effectiveness of my flight controls. I just don't see the value. At least, I don't see the value amounting to anywhere near that required to make an AoA indicator "mandatory."
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IME a "buzzing" stall horn (or gear horn for that matter) is fairly easy to tune out when you're stressed and an insistent female voice ("Too Slow, Too Slow") is significantly more likely to get your attention. And having an AoA indicator provides much more than any stall warning because it shows how close to the stalling AoA you are currently as well as the AoA trend, neither of which are available with a stall warning device. As to the butt and flight control feel, those have nowhere near the quantifiable indication of an AoA indicator. Those kinesthetic senses are great for detecting changes and provide useful input while your vision is directed outside but rather unreliable for absolute measurement.

All that aside I don't think AoA should be mandatory either, I just find it more useful than most pilots who haven't flown with it in a light airplane tend to believe.
 
dmccormack said:
Not when I can spend more money! Yes! That's it! Money = safety!!

:nonod:

It's gym memberships for people who never work out....
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No no, money = EFFICIENCY. With today's fuel prices it's all about efficiency and that's why you want AoA. You can fine tune your power setting much more effectively.
 
Henning said:
No no, money = EFFICIENCY. With today's fuel prices it's all about efficiency and that's why you want AoA. You can fine tune your power setting much more effectively.
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Perhaps, but the context I responded to was AoA to help prevent stall-spin accidents.

The way to prevent these accidents is to train pilots the corners of the envelope at altitude. when the pilots knows the edges, he can stay inside when there's insufficient room to recover.

Anything else is a gimmick.
 
dmccormack said:
Perhaps, but the context I responded to was AoA to help prevent stall-spin accidents.

The way to prevent these accidents is to train pilots the corners of the envelope at altitude. when the pilots knows the edges, he can stay inside when there's insufficient room to recover.

Anything else is a gimmick.
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Again, an AoA indicator paints those edges well, which is useful both in times of need and for exploring/learning the edges at a safe altitude.
 
dmccormack said:
Perhaps, but the context I responded to was AoA to help prevent stall-spin accidents.

The way to prevent these accidents is to train pilots the corners of the envelope at altitude. when the pilots knows the edges, he can stay inside when there's insufficient room to recover.

Anything else is a gimmick.
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No argument from me, just pointing out that the AoA can serve multiple masters and has a definite value for its price even outside the emergency context, in fact it's a tool that can help save you money on every flight.
 
Henning said:
No argument from me, just pointing out that the AoA can serve multiple masters and has a definite value for its price even outside the emergency context, in fact it's a tool that can help save you money on every flight.
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Absolutely -- so can a JPI or other full engine analyzers, multi-point CHT probes, 'spherics displays, XM weather, etc....

As long as those tools are use to tune existing knowledge -- have at it.

But adding an AoA so you "don't get caught in a base to final spin"?

That's flawed logic -- there's a whole lot more that should be happening before the AoA is installed.
 
dmccormack said:
Absolutely -- so can a JPI or other full engine analyzers, multi-point CHT probes, 'spherics displays, XM weather, etc....

As long as those tools are use to tune existing knowledge -- have at it.

But adding an AoA so you "don't get caught in a base to final spin"?

That's flawed logic -- there's a whole lot more that should be happening before the AoA is installed.
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Same as most things, most people have no idea how to fully use the tools they have.
 
The accident Cirrus (4SR) was spotted on right base for 9R and then made a LEFT turn towards heading West. ("No! I needed you to follow the Cirrus on about a mile final!") The Cirrus on final (1DA) did not have to maneuver abruptly to avoid a collision. (1DA was already starting to go-around up and to the left in a shallow bank/climb about 1/2 mile away from 4SR.) When tower said "Cut it in tight for 9R! Cut it in tight!" 4SR was still turning left and increased pitch/accelerated stall+ steepened the bank angle to approximately 90 degrees. One to two turn spin... crash.

My condolences.
 
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Ash Williams said:
The accident Cirrus (4SR) was spotted on right base for 9R and then made a LEFT turn towards heading West. ("No! I needed you to follow the Cirrus on about a mile final!") The Cirrus on final (1DA) did not have to maneuver abruptly to avoid a collision. (1DA was already starting to go-around up and to the left in a shallow bank/climb about 1/2 mile away from 4SR.) When tower said "Cut it in tight for 9R! Cut it in tight!" 4SR was still turning left and steepened the bank angle to approximately 90 degrees.
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A 90 degree bank angle while on a base to final turn.:nono::nono::nono::nono:

There is not enough gauges that will cure those bad habits.... Unfortunately gravity was the judge, jury and executioner..:sad::sad:

Kids.... learn from this... Please.

Ben.
 
N801BH said:
A 90 degree bank angle while on a base to final turn.:nono::nono::nono::nono:

There is not enough gauges that will cure those bad habits.... Unfortunately gravity was the judge, jury and executioner..:sad::sad:

Kids.... learn from this... Please.

Ben.
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No problem with a 90* bank to final if you start it at 1200'AGL.
 
Henning said:
No problem with a 90* bank to final if you start it at 1200'AGL.
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I agree.... It is that pesky "doing aerobatics" inside the airport traffic area thing that could rear its ugly head..
 
Everskyward said:
It seems like people always jump on Cirrus when one crashes. Looking at the previous 10 days worth of accidents from the FAA site there were 8 fatal accidents.

1 Cirrus
1 Experimental
1 Cessna 172
1 Mooney
1 Cessna 210
1 Comanche
1 BD-4
1 Cessna 414

The only other one of those accidents I remember reading about here was the 414.
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I only posted this one because it looks like you can learn from it. Sounds like this could have happened in any plane. You can always fly the plane first and not push your limits.... Go around. The way tower communicated seemed like it pushed the pic with no time to make a decision.
 
dmccormack said:
Agreed.


---- related rant below-----

"AoA gauges"

Oh good grief -- another gauge?? Sure, if you need one on your panel -- fine. Toss in a metronome, astrolabe, and abacus while you're at it...

:rolleyes2:

How many stall-spins occurred in airplanes with operating stall horns?

Here's a thought -- learn to fly and feel the wing without relying on a gadget.
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Don't you think however that and AOA indicator would be a more useful indicator than a stall horn?
 
dmccormack said:
No -- a better feel for the airplane without resorting to gadgets would be best.


-- edit--

Just saw Dr Bruce's comment. Mega-dittoes.
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And don't listen to the tower when he tells you to "tighten it up now!"

That controller should be fired, banned from the tower.
 
Mike5250 said:
I only posted this one because it looks like you can learn from it. Sounds like this could have happened in any plane.
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Fair enough, but it only took until post #8 for people to start in.
 
dmccormack said:
But adding an AoA so you "don't get caught in a base to final spin"?
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Yes, because AoA indicator guards about the raise in the stall speed when pilot pulls the Gs. The AoA indicator is what one should pay attention to in a turn instead of airspeed. Keep in mind that the training in steep turns is usually done at the maneuvering speed, as specified in POH (in my case AFM). In fact my CFI and I talked about a demo of accelerated stall, but never got around to it. You may teach your students differently, but what about the rest?
 
zaitcev said:
Yes, because AoA indicator guards about the raise in the stall speed when pilot pulls the Gs. The AoA indicator is what one should pay attention to in a turn instead of airspeed. Keep in mind that the training in steep turns is usually done at the maneuvering speed, as specified in POH (in my case AFM). In fact my CFI and I talked about a demo of accelerated stall, but never got around to it. You may teach your students differently, but what about the rest?
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An AoA indicator doesn't guard anything.

It's an indicator which may or may not be noticed.

I contend that a pilot who doesn't understand his airplane well enough to fly it without panel gadgets has no business nibbling the edges in the pattern hoping the AoA indicator will tell him what's "safe" and what isn't.
 
dmccormack said:
:dunno:

I've been asked a time or two. It's hard to pass up an opportunity to show off.

:redface:
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I think that qualifies as "macho" according to the FAA's list of "hazardous attitudes." Now, repeat the antidote after me: "taking chances is foolish!" and sin no more. :D
 
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AdamZ said:
Don't you think however that and AOA indicator would be a more useful indicator than a stall horn?
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Remember a stall warning horn is an audible AOA indicator... it says, "Hey! You're getting close to exceeding the critical angle of attack!"
 
AdamZ said:
Don't you think however that and AOA indicator would be a more useful indicator than a stall horn?
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No, I think it's a fine supplement though. I want my raw data and alarm systems to be separate; stall horn is typically sounding several knots shy. One DA 40 was over 10kts. It was so bad it was on the entire way down final. I took aluminum tape and tuned the orifice to ~4kts; passengers were much more comfortable with the landings. Since it was a rental I just made a pencil mark and placed/removed it when I flew it.
 
matthammer said:
I think that qualifies as "macho" according to the FAA's list of "hazardous attitudes." Now, repeat the antidote after me: "taking chances is foolish!" and sin no more. :D
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It's not "taking chances" if it's something you can do without hoping that luck is on your side.

:wink2:
 
The FAA has just approved one vendors add-on AOA system as a minor alteration. AOPA Mag had an article on it recently.
 
If the pilot screws up the pilot dies, if the controller screws up the pilot dies. :(

I'm glad our tower guys are always very clear on what they want and what number you are and what kind of traffic you are following.
 
Piloto said:
If the crash was due to a stall (less than 61kts) it surprised me that nobody survived the impact that was probably arrested by the trees. I would look into the crashworthiness of the Cirrus. In other airframes like the Mooney this crash would have been survivable. So much for the parachute. But now I know why it is required for the Cirrus.

José
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Parachutes are useless that low 250'-400'.... if there is a 2 second response time even with a ballistic parachute it's too late.
 
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