Medical with felony

[delphipgmr]

I know this has been beat to death, but mine is a little different. Every felony thread i've read has to do with drugs/fire arms etc, mine was white collar, non-violent.

Here is my story.

I have a private/instrument, have for over 20 years. I stopped flying about 10 years ago at which time i had a 3rd class medical. I am diabetic, but well controlled. if i remember right, the FAA gave me a 6 year waiver or something? I allowed my medical to just lapse years ago.

I was later convicted of a federal felony for mail fraud.. without going into all the details, I was like a little Bernie Madoff.. except MUCH smaller (about $200K total).

The truth is, i didnt know what i was doing was illegal, and as soon as it was pointed out to me by one of those nice FBI agents in a black jacket, everyone was paid back 100%.

Thing is with the feds, even if your not guilty or make an honest mistake, you cant afford to fight, they have much deeper pockets. so basically i had to plead guilty. but the court did recognize that i "did the right thing" when i found out it was wrong, and facing 10-30 years, they just gave me 4 years probation and a $10K fine (which i paid). So a slap on the wrist.

The 4 years was up about a year ago, so happily, that horrible part of my life is over.

I am now getting the "Itch" to fly again.

How does the FAA view non-drug, non-violent, felonies?

I assume i also have to get another diabetes waiver too (still well controlled).

Even if this is something that cant happen now, maybe in the future i can. Just looking for advice.

Thanks
--K

 

[bbchien]

Here's the list.....see 26V. You need ten years out.

 

[poadeleted20]

The OP is not talking about getting a job with the airlines. 14 CFR Part 1544 applies to "scheduled passenger operations, public charter passenger operations, private charter passenger operations; the operations of aircraft operators holding operating certificates under 14 CFR part 119 operating aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or more; and other aircraft operators adopting and obtaining approval of an aircraft operator security program." The OP can't be an airline pilot for ten years after that conviction, but it should not disqualify him from a Third Class medical.

Even a Federal felony conviction for drug trafficking only puts you out of flying for one year, and that's under a different section. I went through that with the FAA a few years ago with a young man who wanted to be an airline pilot but had sold a bag of grass to an undercover narc and spent a year in a Federal pen for his foolishness. A year out of jail, he was legal to train and earn pilot certificates, but under that law would not be able to work in the industry for another nine years. Of course, no airline would ever hire him as a pilot, but that's another story.

 

[Skylane81E]

So Bruce, I see that that is a TSA list not FAA. So does that prohibit new ratings or flight altogether?

 

[poadeleted20]

So Bruce, I see that that is a TSA list not FAA. So does that prohibit new ratings or flight altogether?

No, it does not. The only things which prevent new certificates/ratings are listed in 14 CFR 61.13 and 61.15:

• Currently under order of suspension
• Within one year revocation
• Within one year of conviction for the violation of any Federal or State statute relating to the growing, processing, manufacture, sale, disposition, possession, transportation, or importation of narcotic drugs, marijuana, or depressant or stimulant drugs or substances
• Within one year of committing an act prohibited by Sec. 91.17(a) or Sec. 91.19(a) (flying with alcohol or drugs in your system or drugs in your plane).

One supposes that the Aeromedical folks might find a record of murder, arson, aggravated sexual assault, etc., to be evidence of "a personality disorder that is severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts" and revoke an existing medical certificate or deny a new application under 67.307(a)(1), but assuming the OP's story is accurate, I don't see that in his case.

 

[wsuffa]

IIRC, the TSA regulation impacts unescorted AOA/SIDA access, which would impact the ability to fly into the FRZ and possibly other airports. Assuming that's the case, it would also impact the ability of the airport security folks to issue access cards at some airports.

 

[delphipgmr]

thank you for the replies, now im confused.

Is it 10 years for recreational? (which is what i am), or 1 year? and does already having a certificate make a difference

I have no problem waiting the 10 years too if its alot easier, like i said, its recreational, and not a necessity. Just wanted to know where i stand.

Especially if this is going to cost big $$ to get the medical (not to mention the diabetes too).

also, is that 10 years out from date of conviction or date everything is over?

 

[comanchepilot]

Did you even have a lawyer or did you simply pay everyone back and then fall on the mercy of the court? One condition of probation and conviction SHOULD have been that once all were repaid 100% and the fine paid and probably completed you could have filed for expungement of the conviction. Thus rendering you no longer under a felony conviction and you could answer no.

Was it the Barney Fife School of Law?

 

[delphipgmr]

of course i had a lawyer. it was a federally prosecuted case which have very different rules. you cant just go in and "defend yourself".

in fact the prosecutors wont even talk to you without a lawyer present at all times in fear that anything said could be disputed because of no representation.

its quite a bit different in real life than in the movies or tv shows like the andy griffith show.

federal convictions can not be expunged, but 7 years after completion you can apply to get civil rights restored (IE: voting/jury duty etc), and you can also apply separately to the ATF to get the firearm restrictions restored (But harder to get).

 

[comanchepilot]

all my practice is federal . . .where is Bruce - Bruce does criminal.

If someone is pro se and insists on it - then they talk to you.

the problem is that everything is negotiable. . . don't ask, don't get. The sentencing rules are in stone. . . .but thats it.

 

[JHW]

when I was in college there was a fellow student I casually knew at the airport. I always thought he was a spoiled rich kid because he had a beech 18, a newish corvette, and rented a big house in town where his girlfriend threw good parties. Start of senior year some US marshals came and cleaned out his house and hangar with a U-haul truck. Seems they didn't like his regular trips to south america in the twin beech. But sometimes crime does pay, because he got probation, finished school, wrote up all his multi-engine flight experience, and today he's a captain flying for a big brown box company. He must have had an attorney more along the lines of Joe.

 

[delphipgmr]

technically you can get a federal pardon through the clemency board 5 years out, but they are very rare. only 40 or so have been approved under obama in the last 5 years.

The sentencing judge has no jurisdiction to grant a pardon, or include that in the sentencing (I had asked that back then). All has to go through the federal clemency board and the president.

if it was a state conviction, it would be different, federal its obama.

So basically, i'm stuck with it, and im OK with that, the only drawback has been not being able to fly. everything else is no factor for me. In fact, not having jury duty anymore is a big +!.

 

[craigvince]

Another option for you would be to forget the medical altogether and just fly under Sport Pilot rules. Technically, you'd only need a BFR and you could start flying again tomorrow.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is it 10 years for recreational? (which is what i am), or 1 year? and does already having a certificate make a difference

As I said above, that 10 years only applies to jobs where you must be TSA-cleared into air carrier areas unescorted. It has nothing to do with FAA medical certification. And since your offense was unrelated to drugs or alcohol, the FAA regulations on those (61.13 and 61.15) do not apply.

also, is that 10 years out from date of conviction or date everything is over?

Here's what it says:

(d) Disqualifying criminal offenses. An individual has a disqualifying criminal offense if the individual has been convicted, or found not guilty by reason of insanity, of any of the disqualifying crimes listed in this paragraph in any jurisdiction during the 10 years before the date of the individual's application for authority to perform covered functions, or while the individual has authority to perform covered functions.

Beyond that, you'd have to ask the TSA Chief Counsel.

 

[poadeleted20]

After additional research, I found 17 cases that went to the NTSB involving the word "felony." They all involved either drugs or lying about one's record (or both). As I read the rules, if you tell the truth on this, and you have no other non-medical issues, the only thing to worry about as far as getting a Third Class medical is getting your diabetes paperwork in order, and Bruce is an expert on that part.

Just don't lie, conceal, or evade when they ask about the conviction -- that's a fast way out of flying permanently.

 

[JB1842]

of course i had a lawyer. it was a federally prosecuted case which have very different rules. you cant just go in and "defend yourself".

Sure you can. Just because you are in federal court doesn't mean you can't represent yourself. I've seen it happen a few times.

 

[poadeleted20]

Sure you can. Just because you are in federal court doesn't mean you can't represent yourself. I've seen it happen a few times.

Bet it did not end well for the defendant.

 

[JB1842]

Bet it did not end well for the defendant.

It rarely ever does. Federal prosecutors are for the most part lazy. They rarely indict anybody unless they have a 98% chance of getting convicted. And I mean convicted as in getting a plea deal signed. In over 9 years, I can count on one hand the number of people I've seen walk.

 

[delphipgmr]

(d) Disqualifying criminal offenses. An individual has a disqualifying criminal offense if the individual has been convicted, or found not guilty by reason of insanity, of any of the disqualifying crimes listed in this paragraph in any jurisdiction during the 10 years before the date of the individual's application for authority to perform covered functions, or while the individual has authority to perform covered functions.

so that sounds like from the date of conviction?

 

[poadeleted21]

so that sounds like from the date of conviction?

I don't think the felony is a big deal for non commercial flying. I knew a guy who knocked over a convenience store and got his PPL 5 years later. He took his check ride just before I did with the same DPE (and subsequently wound up killing himself and 3 others with THC in his blood)

http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_9acc55b6-83aa-11df-85e6-001cc4c002e0.html

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20100708X10207&key=1

I seem to recall that the "Good Moral Character" clause of the ATP license meant "no felonies"

 

[bbchien]

What part of the doucment in post #2 isn't understood? it's horrid grammr, perhaps? Thank you E.B.

 

[delphipgmr]

What part of the doucment in post #2 isn't understood? it's horrid grammr, perhaps? Thank you E.B.

several things make it hard to understand.

1) its ambiguous
2) it doesn't specify whether it applies to commercial or recreational, or both. and the 7 other posts in here that all give different opinions on it.
3) contradictory to time you can apply:
"One year from the conviction and you can apply for a certificate."
then
"Disqualifying...during the 10 years before the date of the individual's application.."

so which is it? ok to apply 1 year out, or 10 years out?

in my case, i am already 5+ years out from conviction, so the extra few years is not a big deal.

 

[ebykowsky]

Also, one thing I don't think has been addressed: did you say you were recreational (post 7) as in you have a recreational license, or you want to do this for recreation? If that's the case, I'd save myself the worry and just fly sport pilot.

 

[delphipgmr]

i understand i can go LSA, but i prefer to be able to utilize my instrument rating.

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't think the felony is a big deal for non commercial flying. I knew a guy who knocked over a convenience store and got his PPL 5 years later. He took his check ride just before I did with the same DPE (and subsequently wound up killing himself and 3 others with THC in his blood)

http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/missing-plane-was-reportedly-flying-too-low/article_9acc55b6-83aa-11df-85e6-001cc4c002e0.html

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20100708X10207&key=1

I seem to recall that the "Good Moral Character" clause of the ATP license meant "no felonies"

No, it doesn't. Read the cases you find if you search for "felony" and "moral", especially Neff. OTOH, there are things you can do besides felonies which can be considered demonstration of lack of "good moral character" -- read the rest of the "moral" cases. But that only applies to ATP certificates, not medicals, and not lower class pilot certificates.


In any event, I just got off the phone with the Regional FS and OKC Aeromedical. The paper Bruce posted has only to do with TSA issues, not FAA medical certificates. If you check that "yes" block on your medical application, it will be deferred to OKC, and they will then ask you for all the documentation on the case. For something like drug trafficking within the past year, expect a denial. For a 4-year-old mail fraud, expect issuance.

 

[bbchien]

No, it doesn't. Read the cases you find if you search for "felony" and "moral", especially Neff. OTOH, there are things you can do besides felonies which can be considered demonstration of lack of "good moral character" -- read the rest of the "moral" cases. But that only applies to ATP certificates, not medicals, and not lower class pilot certificates.


In any event, I just got off the phone with the Regional FS and OKC Aeromedical. The paper Bruce posted has only to do with TSA issues, not FAA medical certificates. If you check that "yes" block on your medical application, it will be deferred to OKC, and they will then ask you for all the documentation on the case. For something like drug trafficking within the past year, expect a denial. For a 4-year-old mail fraud, expect issuance.

I don't read it that way, Ron. TSA will prohibit FAA from issuing for #26(sub v) and FAA has no choice, until 10 years have elapsed.

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't read it that way, Ron. TSA will prohibit FAA from issuing for #26(sub v) and FAA has no choice, until 10 years have elapsed.

The folks in Oklahoma City told me otherwise. They said it's strictly case-by-case, and the person there to whom I spoke said a small mail fraud four years ago would not stop the show.

That is consistent with what they told me around 2004 when I had that kid with the drug trafficking conviction. I discussed this with the FAA on both pilot and medical sides, and they said one year after, he could be issued (although he'd not work for the airlines for at least nine more years due to the TSA rule, and never according to airline hiring managers).

Further, while TSA can block issuance of a pilot certificate (which is rare, and the OP has not had his revoked over this), to my knowledge, they have no say over medicals. If you have something in writing from Aeromedical to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

 

[jbarrass]

This is part of what is really sad about the FAA. The "published" regs are very clear and unambiguous, as Ron points out, it does not apply.

But the FAA has decided this is a medical issue (beats me why) and if the Med side chooses not to issue, the OP is hosed. If he tries, he very much risks loseing the SP option since it's now a denied medical....

 

[delphipgmr]

If TSA doesn't "approve" but im still issued a 3rd class, will there be any restrictions (IE: like at certain controller airports that are under TSA control?)

What would be my next step?

Im pretty sure i know what to do with the diabetes (I went through it once before, i might still have all the old paperwork), but what can i expect will happen once referred?

Other thoughts..

what about insurance/aircraft rental.

If i remember, they usually ask on rental/insurance agreements if you have had a felony conviction. would that alone exclude me from renting / purchasing & insuring and aircraft?

as far as the SP thing.. not really interested, even if denied for a medical, im sure at the 10 year mark, it would be issued.

im not the "sport pilot" type of guy.

I also realized when all this happened that one of the consequences was the likelihood that i would not fly again. I have accepted that, and i'm ok with it.

Also, even though i can benefit from the sport pilot rule, i don't believe it was a good idea for the FAA to pass the rule. i believe that all pilots should have a valid medical, and follow the rules.

Flying is a privilege and we all know that we are held to a higher standard as we should be.

 

[poadeleted20]

This is part of what is really sad about the FAA. The "published" regs are very clear and unambiguous, as Ron points out, it does not apply.

Agreed.

But the FAA has decided this is a medical issue

No, they have not. The FAA office that handles this matter says Bruce's interpretation is incorrect.

 

[poadeleted20]

If TSA doesn't "approve" but im still issued a 3rd class, will there be any restrictions (IE: like at certain controller airports that are under TSA control?)

TSA is not part of the review process for medical certificates, and there will be no restriction on your Third Class medical if it is issued by the FAA, and if the diabetes is well-controlled, I see no reason why it should not.

what about insurance/aircraft rental.

If i remember, they usually ask on rental/insurance agreements if you have had a felony conviction. would that alone exclude me from renting / purchasing & insuring and aircraft?

As far as renting, that's an issue between you and the rental operator, although I can see where someone might be reluctant to entrust a $100K airplane to someone with a past felony fraud conviction. There is no issue from the FAR standpoint on purchasing, although you may have a problem paying for it if you don't have full price cash, as banks are cranky about loaning money to those with past fraud convictions. Not sure where the insurance companies stand -- you might ask a broker.

 

[jbarrass]

Agreed.

No, they have not. The FAA office that handles this matter says Bruce's interpretation is incorrect.

But Bruce is as good as they get on the med stuff and it sounds like if the OP walks into his office he will not walk out with a certificate. Then what? Am I missing something?

 

[delphipgmr]

I meant more about going into airports un-escorted etc.. would the TSA stop me or restrict my access?

I am not worried about getting loans, i am fairly well off. the concern was if an insurance company/rental company would ALLOW someone with a conviction to get a policy.

 

[wsuffa]

I meant more about going into airports un-escorted etc.. would the TSA stop me or restrict my access?

If there is air carrier service at the airport, and you need an AOA/SIDA access card, you will have an issue. For most GA only airports it's unlikely to be an issue.

 

[pericynthion]

You should be able to fly into ~all non-FRZ airports without issue. Any that have SIDA areas you would have to be "escorted" by some FBO personnel, exactly the same as any other GA pilot. The potential problem could be if you want to be based at an airport with a SIDA, because potentially you couldn't be issued a security badge by the local TSA. I am based at such an airport, OAK, and to get my gate access badge I had to go through a background check. If you're only renting, this could just be an inconvenience (you'd have to be escorted to your rental plane by someone from the rental outfit, which probably means no out-of-hours flying). If you want to own an aircraft, it would be a showstopper, so you'd just have to keep your aircraft at a less anal airport.

 

[poadeleted20]

But Bruce is as good as they get on the med stuff and it sounds like if the OP walks into his office he will not walk out with a certificate. Then what? Am I missing something?

Bruce is correct as far as not walking out with your certificate -- as I said, OKC said that with a felony, it will be deferred to OKC, who will then either issue the medical directly or deny the application. However, OKC says that the TSA rule for unescorted access to SIDA's is not applicable to medical certificate issuance, and they will evaluate felony convictions on a case -by-case basis on their own criteria. They also said that a single mail fraud four years ago would not normally result in denial.

 

[poadeleted20]

I meant more about going into airports un-escorted etc.. would the TSA stop me or restrict my access?

Only to places where you'd not be allowed unescorted access anyway, so don't taxi your plane inside the red zone where the airliners are parked. But that's true for pretty much all of us here, anyway.

 

[delphipgmr]

so is the process

1) get an exam w/ deferral for felony/diabetes
2) wait for response from okc
3) send diabetes/felony info that is requested

correct?

 

[bbchien]

Yes..

 

[RJM62]

I can't help but think that this is another area in which FAA is creating more work for itself than it has to.

For second- and third-class medicals, I think it would make more sense to change the question to something along the lines of, "Within the past ten years, have you been arrested, convicted, or released from jail or prison for any felony or misdemeanor?" Even The Stasi TSA doesn't care about anything older than that.

-Rich