Medical for current student sport pilot

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Hi,
I'm a student sport pilot flying solo and using my DL to replace the 3rd class medical. I have a bit of a checkered past. 1 drug possession about 10 yrs ago and 1 dui about 5 yrs ago. I reported these items on the 8710-11 student pilot application and was approved for student card. I am now thinking of going for a PPL so I can fly a cherokee. Can I put "Previously reported" for my conviction information since I have already disclosed this? I also requested a report from the NDR and it came back with nothing derogatory. Obviously my concern is getting deferred or denied and loosing the priveledge I currently have to fly solo. Will I have to re-disclose my criminal history again on a 3rd class medical application? And if so, will me bringing the NDR report with me to the AME get me by? Should I go have a psych eval done before I even go and have that along? Should I just forget the idea of a medical and be happy with what I got? I guess I want to know is there any "fool proof" way of having my ducks in a row to avoid deferrment?

Thanks!
 
Hi,
I'm a student sport pilot flying solo and using my DL to replace the 3rd class medical. I have a bit of a checkered past. 1 drug possession about 10 yrs ago and 1 dui about 5 yrs ago. I reported these items on the 8710-11 student pilot application and was approved for student card. I am now thinking of going for a PPL so I can fly a cherokee. Can I put "Previously reported" for my conviction information since I have already disclosed this?
Nope. Different bureaucaracy. Your 8710 went to the operations guys. the 8500 goes to the medcial guys.
I also requested a report from the NDR and it came back with nothing derogatory. Obviously my concern is getting deferred or denied and loosing the priveledge I currently have to fly solo. Will I have to re-disclose my criminal history again on a 3rd class medical application?
Yes, it's question 19.
And if so, will me bringing the NDR report with me to the AME get me by?
Nope. Oddly it's not the criminal history that's the showstopper, it's the DUI. You'll need the court papers, and I hope you blew, and you blew below .15.
Should I go have a psych eval done before I even go and have that along?
You won't need them if you blew between 0.04 and .15, provided this is the only event.
Should I just forget the idea of a medical and be happy with what I got? I guess I want to know is there any "fool proof" way of having my ducks in a row to avoid deferrment?
Nope, the Agency has withdrawn field authority for even a single DUI. Thank you, right Hon Representative James Oberstar d-Minn.
...sigh....only go for this is you have resources and stamina and really want it. The psych eval cannot be paid for by insurance or the psych will PIN you with a diagnosis so he gets paid ($1,800). And, you could lose the privilige of SP if denied.
 
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Nope. Different bureaucaracy. Your 8710 went to the operations guys. the 8500 goes to the medcial guys. Yes, it's question 19. Nope. Oddly it's not the criminal history that's the showstopper, it's the DUI. You'll need the court papers, and I hope you blew, and you blew below .15. You won't need them if you blew between 0.4 and .15, provided this is the only event. Nope, the Agency has withdrawn field authority for even a single DUI. Thank you, right Hon Representative James Oberstar d-Minn....sigh....only go for this is you have resources and stamina and really want it. The psych eval cannot be paid for by insurance or the psych will PIN you with a diagnosis so he gets paid ($1,800). And, you could lose the privilige of SP if denied.

Thank you Sir!

I think for now, I will stay on the Sport Pilot track to be safe. When you say "court papers" what exactly does that mean? The entire arrest report or will just the disposition paperwork be sufficient? This so long ago, I don't even know if I can get this information. I know it was reduced to impaired if that is any help. I was charged with a dui but blew a 0.0. The officer reported that I was weaving and appeared under the influence of something but never tested me for anything other than alcohol. I should have fought it but didn't have the resources at the time to go to trial and my legal aid lawyer talked me into just taking the plea bargain. I know, stupid, stupid , stupid. I wasn't planning on being a pilot at that time and just wanted to get it over with.

Thanks!
 
Doc,
Also, can you clarify. So what you are saying is even if I bring the court papers and blew below the cut off, I will still be deferred? Or is the reason that he can't approve me because of the drug possession from 10 yrs ago? Sorry to ask so many questions, I'm just trying to understand the politics of this whole process.

Thanks Again for helping a fellow pilot!
 
Doc,
Also, can you clarify. So what you are saying is even if I bring the court papers and blew below the cut off, I will still be deferred? Or is the reason that he can't approve me because of the drug possession from 10 yrs ago? Sorry to ask so many questions, I'm just trying to understand the politics of this whole process.

Thanks Again for helping a fellow pilot!
The question is "alcohol or a drug" (#19). You'll have to answer "yes". It's because of the DUI. 10 years is just barely enough time on the drug possession.
 
Ok, now its a year later. I have over 100hrs flying solo as SP student. I scheduled my checkride several times but was always cancelled because of weather or scheduling. I live in Minnesota and there is only person who does Check rides in the Flight Design CT within 300 miles. I just got re-endorsed for solo flight from my CFI, but I really want the PPL. I live in a very rural area and this is the only Sort Pilot Plane in my area. So are the rules still the same? Is any DUI on record cause for automatic deferment? There plenty of clubs that offer fractional ownership for PPL but none for SP. I even tried to start my own but just not enough interest in this area. I'm looking to make a career out of it. Last I heard they are trying to waive the 3rd class medical requirement for PPL. Anything on that?

Thanks again Dr. Bruce, so far your advice has kept me in the air at least, even though it's only solo. Midwest is different world. I know quite a few pilots that do not even have a medical or a pilot cert. I'd like to keep it legal. Just agian, for sure even 1 dui 6 yrs ago is automatic defer?
 
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...m/ame/guide/app_process/app_history/item18/v/

Application Process for Medical Certification

Applicant History - Item 18. Medical History
v. History of Arrest(s), Conviction(s) and/or Administrative Action(s)
Arrest(s), conviction(s) and/or administrative action(s) affecting driving privileges may raise questions about the applicant's fitness for certification and may be cause for disqualification. (See Items 18.n. and 47). A single driving while intoxicated (DWI) arrest, conviction and/or administrative action usually is not cause for denial provided there are no other instances or indications of substance dependence or abuse.







The events to be reported are specifically identified in Item 18.v. of FAA Form 8500-8. If yes is checked, the applicant must describe the arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) in the EXPLANATIONS box. The description must include:
  • The alcohol or drug offense for which the applicant was arrested, convicted, or the type of administrative action involved (e.g., attendance at an educational or rehabilitation program in lieu of conviction; license denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation for refusal to be tested; educational safe driving program for multiple speeding convictions; etc.);
  • The name of the state or other jurisdiction involved; and
  • The date of the arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action
Note: If the applicant documented ALL of the above information on previous exams AND there are no new arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) since the last application, the applicant may enter PREVIOUSLY REPORTED, NO CHANGE.







For all first-time reports of arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) the Examiner must do the following prior to issuing an airman medical certificate:
  • Obtain a detailed history of the applicant's alcohol use, the circumstances surrounding all alcohol-related incidents (include those reported in 18v and any others that may have occurred)
  • Obtain copies of all court records and arrest reports related to the event(s) if the incident(s) occurred within the 5 years prior to the exam. This includes copies of relevant military records if the incidents occurred while the applicant was a member of the U.S. armed forces (includes military court records, records of non-judicial punishment, and military substance abuse records)
  • Document those findings in Item 60. (See Item 47)
  • Forward the court records, arrest reports, and any military records to AMCD
  • Advise the applicant that the reporting of alcohol or drug offenses (i.e., motor vehicle violation) on the history part of the medical application does not relieve the airman of responsibility to report each motor vehicle action to the FAA within 60 days of the occurrence to the:
Security and Investigations DivisionAMC-700P.O. Box 25810Oklahoma City, OK 73125-0810
Deferral Criteria:






The Examiner must defer certification for any of the following:
  • Inability to obtain and review the court and arrest records within 14 days of the date of the exam
  • For the alcohol- or drug-related driving incidents:
    • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant registers a blood alcohol level 0.15 or higher
    • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action for which the applicant refused blood alcohol testing
    • Any arrest, conviction, and/or administrative action within the preceding 2 years AND THERE HAS BEEN ANOTHER arrest, conviction and/or administrative action AT ANY OTHER TIME
    • Total of 3 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within a lifetime
    • Total of 2 arrest(s), conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) within the preceding 10 years
If the applicant is deferred, the FAA will require the applicant to:

  • Provide:
    • A detailed personal statement regarding his/her past and present patterns of alcohol or drug use
    • A complete copy of his/her current driving record in any state that he/she has held a driver’s license in the last 10 years
    • Copies of any court records and arrest reports related to the event(s) that have not already been provided to the AME. This includes copies of relevant military records if any event(s) occurred while the applicant was a member of the U.S. armed forces. “Relevant military records” means military court records, records of non-judicial punishment, and military substance abuse records
  • Obtain:
    • A substance abuse evaluation from an addictionologist or addiction psychologist/ psychiatrist familiar with aviation standards.
Issue Criteria:






The Examiner may issue if:
  • NONE of the Deferral Criteria above are met
  • For reported incident(s) when the most recent incident occurred more than 5 years prior to the exam, based on the exam and a detailed interview, the Examiner determines the applicant’s history does not indicate a possible substance abuse or dependence problem
  • For reported incident(s) when the most recent incident occurred within the preceding 5 years of the exam, based on the exam, detailed interview AND review of the court record(s) and arrest report(s), the Examiner determines the applicant’s history does not indicate a possible substance abuse or dependence problem
In order for me to issue, I have to exclude all red conditions above:

I have no idea how to prove that the BAC was less than 0.15 without the court records, or that the applicant didn't refuse to blow, when given an offense more than 5 years ago. I think this means I have have to get the record even on out beyond the fifth year, or I have to defer. Determining that there are no other events requries a 10 year DL search.

You have two, one drug event, one alcohol event. That's a mandatory defer.
The only difference this year is that for THIRD CLASS, a Substance Eval. by a state licensed counselor in which all 11 DSM criteria are addressed SEPARATELY, can be used instead of the full psychiatrist/psychol. eval. This is about $250 in my community.

As a practical matter, your AME will need to get a couple of random urine tests, a blood count and liver function tests. And you will need all court records from BOTH events.

No AME can issue you in the office. If you want me to assemble these items, and review them, only then can I advise you as to what FAA's decision will likely be. I do know the examiners quite well, but no guarantees. PM if interested, it's not super pricey but it's not cheap.
 
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I'm an ATCer...I got arrested one time in the military for curfew violation at an overseas air base and resisting arrest. I was drinking that night and was administered a breathalyzer test. Since it was considered an alcohol related inicdent, I had to attend alcohol drug and prevention treatment(ADAPT) from the Mental Health Clinic on base. After a few sessions with a counselor, they concluded that I didn't have any type of alcohol problem and that this was a one time (dumb@ass) occurence. I also got a Letter of Reprimand from the Squadron Commander.

Since then, I've seperated from the military and have had two classII and never admitted any of this. I never really admitted this because I convinced myself that the questions only pertained too drinking and driving incidents. I'm been selected by the FAA for an ATC position and know there going to investigate my military medical records...which I know has one thing in it about how I had to attend ADAPT counseling.

My question is...am I screwed for not putting this down before on my classII? (I'm going to the same flight doc that I had my other two physicals done). Do you think he'll buy that I really didn't understand the questions? If I show up w/ a copy of my military med records and let him look at the ADAPT counseling w/ neg diagnosis, would he let it slide and sign off on me? Or do you think he'll make me get the security forces police report?

This all happened just short of five years ago and never was my military medical clearance revoked. My main concern is that I'm going to get in trouble for trying to hide all of this.
 
I'm an ATCer...I got arrested one time in the military for curfew violation at an overseas air base and resisting arrest. I was drinking that night and was administered a breathalyzer test. Since it was considered an alcohol related inicdent, I had to attend alcohol drug and prevention treatment(ADAPT) from the Mental Health Clinic on base. After a few sessions with a counselor, they concluded that I didn't have any type of alcohol problem and that this was a one time (dumb@ass) occurence. I also got a Letter of Reprimand from the Squadron Commander.

Since then, I've seperated from the military and have had two classII and never admitted any of this. I never really admitted this because I convinced myself that the questions only pertained too drinking and driving incidents. I'm been selected by the FAA for an ATC position and know there going to investigate my military medical records...which I know has one thing in it about how I had to attend ADAPT counseling.

My question is...am I screwed for not putting this down before on my classII? (I'm going to the same flight doc that I had my other two physicals done). Do you think he'll buy that I really didn't understand the questions? If I show up w/ a copy of my military med records and let him look at the ADAPT counseling w/ neg diagnosis, would he let it slide and sign off on me? Or do you think he'll make me get the security forces police report?

This all happened just short of five years ago and never was my military medical clearance revoked. My main concern is that I'm going to get in trouble for trying to hide all of this.

See Dr. Bruce's recent post at http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=712805#post712805
Note that you're just within the 5 year mark (now. If you had two 2nd class medicals between then and now, it must have been closer to 3 years when you first had to report.) Clearly you don't have the 3 events the OP in that thread had, but the FAA REALLY frowns on anything they think smells of deception. Given what you described, I'm pretty sure you would have been certifiable had you fessed up initially, albeit it may have cost a few $$. Now? I have no idea.
 
Thanks for the reply. And my mistake on the years, i was thinking this happened a year before and so it's actually only been almost four years since this incident. The reason being is that I still had a few years left in the military after this incident, then got out and had my two classIIs done.

Since this happened at an overseas base, I don't think the police report is still available(I think). I know before I seperated I had my Chief Controller look into it. He had a cop buddy look at my mil police records and he said that they had nothing on me, now granted this was at a different base from where the incident took place.

I really think I'm screwed. I'm guessing there's two ways it may go down...1. He'll understand my confusion of the questions as to why I didn't put the incident down and take look at what I have and maybe not defer me. OR 2. He's going to strait up think I'm lying about not understanding the question and defer me until I have all the documents like a police report.

I really hope it's Number 1, since I know it says that I wasn't diagnosed with a alcohol dependancy. Do you think the FAA/flight doc will accept a military Mental Health Clinincs' diagnosis, or would they possible make me go to a civilian one?
 
When they find out, you are screwed.
If you tell them, you may only possibly be screwed.
Tell the FAA selection officer NOW.
 
This thread got me thinking...

About 20 years ago, I was arrested for DUI. But I wasn't driving, I was sitting in a car sleeping in front of a house (didn't want to drive home after house party.) They woke me up, gave me a field sobriety test, hauled me to the klink and made me blow on the machine. I blew an 0.08 and spent the night in the klink.

The long and short of it was that the charges were dismissed and it never even went to court. In the ten or so years I've held a third class medical, it's never occurred to me that it might have been a reportable incident. Should it have been?
 
That was form FF. And I think you are okay, but I (DISCLAIMER) don't have an old form around....sigh. It wasn't nearly so tough as the current one.
 
The Internet never forgets!

I found a Web page that appears to be based on the old version FF. It's low res and hard to read, but it does have different language than the current form. For example, it doesn't ask about arrests, only convictions and administrative actions.

http://www.leftseat.com/ame992.htm

[Edit: See next post for one that's easier to read.]
 

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Here's one that's easier to read:

attachment.php


This one was archived in a PowerPoint presentation on Emory University's Web site:

http://www.fpm.emory.edu/Family/didactics/powerpoint/Aviation exams.ppt
 

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