McCauley vs. Hartzell

BobS

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BobS
My 2-blade Hartzell prop failed inspection and I am now faced with buying a new prop. The two-blade Hartzell's are delayed in delivery and I can't get one until April, so I'm faced with a conversion to a three-blade.

I can get a McCauley Black Mac for $9,698 or a Hartzell Top Prop for $8700. Any recommendations? Does anybody know if my exisiting governor, for a Hartzell 2-blade, will work on one or both of these?

Can anybody think of any other options. This is painful. It's an Arrow II, 1972 PA28R-200. Thanks
 
Putting a 3 blade on a 200-hp airplane is gonna cost you cruise speed and useful load. I know you're backed into a corner, but try to figure out a way to stay with a 2 blade if you can.
 
I know you're backed into a corner, but try to figure out a way to stay with a 2 blade if you can.

Can you get a used, overhauled, two blade Hartzell prop? Or have a used one overhauled?
 
The two-blade Hartzell's are delayed in delivery and I can't get one until April, so I'm faced with a conversion to a three-blade.


Hartzell does this to make - er - encourage you to buy a 3-blade prop.

See if you can find a used prop that passes inspection, either for perm or temporary use. Talk to the prop-shop and to an owner group. You may find that someone has already replaced their prop and has the old 2-blade available.

After my issues with Hartzell (including a LONG delivery time for 2-blade), I'm not their biggest fan right now.

You might also see if MT has a prop as another option.
 
Apparently "Why?" is too short a message and it won't post. So...

How come?

Useful load? Assuming the 3 blader weighs more.

3 bladed props are rumored to be a few knots slower than a 2-blade.
 
I think the lower speed with three blade props vs. 2 has to do with interference. each prop blade has to travel through the wake of the other 2, as the aircraft does not move forward enough for each 1/3 revolution to get the next blade into clean air. so therefore the three blade prop doesnt produce as much thrust as 2 blade. Really the most efficient propeller is a single blade, counterweighted. This is used in some motorglider designs with success. Of course there are advantages to 3 blade props. One is ground clearance. Another is you can swing the same RPMs with lower tip speeds, and therefore possibly better efficiency in that sense. Chris' RV7A would not be able to hold a very large 2 blade prop without issues with ground clearance. this is also why you will rarely see any taildragger RVs do a wheel landing.
 
I think the lower speed with three blade props vs. 2 has to do with interference. each prop blade has to travel through the wake of the other 2, as the aircraft does not move forward enough for each 1/3 revolution to get the next blade into clean air. so therefore the three blade prop doesnt produce as much thrust as 2 blade. Really the most efficient propeller is a single blade, counterweighted. This is used in some motorglider designs with success. Of course there are advantages to 3 blade props. One is ground clearance. Another is you can swing the same RPMs with lower tip speeds, and therefore possibly better efficiency in that sense. Chris' RV7A would not be able to hold a very large 2 blade prop without issues with ground clearance. this is also why you will rarely see any taildragger RVs do a wheel landing.

I have pondered this question myself and as of yet have not had enough time to find the definitive answer. One would think that since the prop is really a wing that adding an extra blade there would be a corresponding increase in forward lift. This lift would have some drag to it but ultimately more lift than drag. With more net-thrust and the plane would go faster not slower. But then I think that if that were truly the case we would all be flying biplanes instead of mono planes.

I would be truly interested in why 3-blades go slower than 2. Then I will want to know why we also have four bladed props.
 
Thanks all for your comments. My prop shop was able to find a 2-bladed Hartzell in their inventory. I just need to check that it conforms with the AD that started all this. The prop shop, New England Propellor (subs. of US Propellor) was the dealer that ordered the original Black Macs from McCauley that started the whole 3-blade conversions in Arrows 19 years ago. Artie, the guy who started this, said that if he had to do it again he'd stick with 2-bladed props in 200 HP engines. He said that they do give up a few knots in cruise and add weight out front in a plane that's already nose heavy. Climb performance is improved. He pointed out that the extra blade adds drag in and could be an added hazard for props that cannot feather in the event of an engine failure. I'm glad to be able to stick with the stock prop.
 
Apparently "Why?" is too short a message and it won't post. So...

How come?

It's generally accepted that everything else equal (same blade profile and airfoil) a two blade is more efficient than a 3 blade. A lot of this (if not all) has to do with the length of the blades. Just like a wing, the longer they are, or more specifically the higher the aspect ratio of the blades, the less induced drag. Since 3 blades of the same length also have more parasite drag, blade length of a 3 blade prop will be less than a 2 blade for the same engine. When you get north of 300 HP, two blades cannot absorb the power efficiently so 3 or more blades are needed despite the penalties but the further below 300 HP you go the more you lose with extra blades. On top of that, most 3 blade props weigh about 25% more than the 2 blade prop they replace. If the airplane is tail heavy this can be an advantage, but otherwise it cuts useful load and speed. Three blade props are also purported to be quieter, although I believe there is little truth to that concept. Instead, they produce noise with a 50% higher fundamental frequency which is generally easier to attenuate so the effect is less noise in the cabin and/or behind ANR headsets. And in some cases the reduced diameter provides a much needed increase in ground clearance. But more often than not the primary reason people put 3 blade props on engine/airplane combinations that don't require them is because they like the look.

That said, I believe some of the newer 3 blade designs are actually as or more efficient than the "standard" two blade.
 
It's generally accepted that everything else equal (same blade profile and airfoil) a two blade is more efficient than a 3 blade. A lot of this (if not all) has to do with the length of the blades. Just like a wing, the longer they are, or more specifically the higher the aspect ratio of the blades, the less induced drag. Since 3 blades of the same length also have more parasite drag, blade length of a 3 blade prop will be less than a 2 blade for the same engine. When you get north of 300 HP, two blades cannot absorb the power efficiently so 3 or more blades are needed despite the penalties but the further below 300 HP you go the more you lose with extra blades. On top of that, most 3 blade props weigh about 25% more than the 2 blade prop they replace. If the airplane is tail heavy this can be an advantage, but otherwise it cuts useful load and speed. Three blade props are also purported to be quieter, although I believe there is little truth to that concept. Instead, they produce noise with a 50% higher fundamental frequency which is generally easier to attenuate so the effect is less noise in the cabin and/or behind ANR headsets. And in some cases the reduced diameter provides a much needed increase in ground clearance. But more often than not the primary reason people put 3 blade props on engine/airplane combinations that don't require them is because they like the look.

That said, I believe some of the newer 3 blade designs are actually as or more efficient than the "standard" two blade.

Wow, great summary, Lance. Thanks. I knew that you needed more blades for higher power, but I thought the only reason you didn't use more blades at lower power was cost. Silly me.

I'll take a stab at why you need more blades for higher power since somebody asked. I'm sort of making it up as I go along, so please correct me if I go astray.

There's two ways to look at it. First, from the engine's point of view, power is equal to rpm times torque. The torque will be a function of the blade lift and therefore of the coefficient of lift of the blade, the rpm (again), and the blade area. The parasite drag will also be a function of blade area. The problem is, to get the torque up for a fixed rpm you need longer blades, but the longer the blades get the closer the tips get to the speed of sound. At something like Mach 0.8, you get a massive increase in prop drag without an increase in lift (i.e. thrust) because you start getting local areas of supersonic flow and shock waves.

The result is that you can only get so much power into a two blade prop without running into tip speed problems. A third (or fourth) blade means that you can get the blade area and therefore torque up without increasing the prop diameter, so you don't have the tip speed problems.

Another way to look at it is to consider that the power is also proportional to how much air you're able to throw backwards. What throws the air backwards is lift from the prop. To grab more air with your two blade prop, you need to increase the rpm or the diameter. But we've established that there's a limit on how much you can increase either without running into tip speed problems. Again, the answer is to add another "wing" to grab that air and throw it backwards.

I have no idea if that really makes sense to anyone else, but it more or less does to me.

Chris
 
In our experience in the RV-7A running a MT 3-blade composite prop on the front of an IO-360 200hp Lycoming engine:

1.) We are currently losing 8-10kts on cruise due to a combination of: a.) Extra blade providing drag as mentioned earlier. b.) The prop we currently have has been replaced as the 'preferred' prop for RV's by a new airfoil design. DOH! This has been confirmed by contacting others running the same engine/prop setup we have but we have discovered (by chance) that the 'new' props being delivered have a slightly different model number.

2.) We were able to get a bigger engine (200hp IO-360 vs. 180hp O-360) and prop (3-blade MT composite vs. Mc/Sen/Hart 2-blade metal) for the same weight penalty. The 'extra' weight of the heavier engine was countered by 'less' weight of the composite 3-blade. So we get extra power from the engine and a 'ooh cool' of the 3-blade (plus one heckuva climb performance).

As Tony will attest to - it is definitely more power/prop than is necessary in the RV. But that's all relative. ;)

Just our experience..

-Chris
 
As Tony will attest to - it is definitely more power/prop than is necessary in the RV. But that's all relative. ;)

-Chris

I dunno, the takeoff roll is kinda long and climb is awfully shallow...
 
I dunno, the takeoff roll is kinda long and climb is awfully shallow...


Actually.... I had a tape recorder rolling last night when you said "Wow.. 1700fpm climb at 100kts" to which I replied "Yes.. At 2400^2"

*sigh* She's a dawg, alright.. Maybe it needs afterburners... hmmm....
 
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