Maybe Unions do wreck companies?

poadeleted21

poadeleted21

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Messages
12,332
Volvo coming to SC behind Continental Tire and Boeing. Boeing employees just turned the union Around at the door. Volvo will do the same.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/0...-plant-will-drive-uaw-away/?intcmp=latestnews

There's plenty of cheap real estate and a rich automotive history in Detroit, wonder why they're not going there?

With 2 large aerospace companies, now Volvo and continental tire, Plus all the various vendors moving into the area to support them, the GA/SC lowcountry is booming with nary a union to be found.
 
The landscape has changed since Walter Reuther and his thugs organized the auto plants.
Today the jobs do not require just a strong back. Much production machinery has computer or numerical control and the operator has to have training to run it.

Today, the average millennial is not employable for several reasons. Lack of motivation is foremost. Having a weekend/party/daily drug habit is a major reason. Simply not showing up if they don't feel like it is another. Mom will let them live in the basement and feed them, so why bother. And having an outstanding arrest warrant for failing to show up at Court on a drug charge is another.
Today there is not a line of instantly employable men standing on the street in front of your production plant hoping you will fire someone that morning so they can work as there was in the 1930's.
My first UAW factory job in the 1950's I stood out front at 4:30AM (second in line) got interviewed at 7:30AM and reported for work at 3PM. That era is gone.

This changes the employer/employee dynamic. To find an employee today that you can actually hire requires sifting through a hundred applications to find one. When your production crew has cost you that much time and effort to find them you are not wanting to have a lot of turn over. SO you offer a benefits package that will keep them. Since they are already getting what you can afford to pay them and good working conditions, there is no incentive to have a Union hung around their neck like a rotting albatross.

Rural states like NC, SC, etc. also have an advantage that the young population does not have as much of the millennial attitude of entitlement as the uber-socialist blue states do. They also do not have entrenched union trolls lurking on every street corner wearing a long coat and hissing, 'hey meester you wanna f**k my seester?'

As you can tell I am not a union fan-boi
 
Should be in the spin zone.
 
Dr. O said:
The landscape has changed since Walter Reuther and his thugs organized the auto plants.
Today the jobs do not require just a strong back. Much production machinery has computer or numerical control and the operator has to have training to run it.

Today, the average millennial is not employable for several reasons. Lack of motivation is foremost. Having a weekend/party/daily drug habit is a major reason. Simply not showing up if they don't feel like it is another. Mom will let them live in the basement and feed them, so why bother. And having an outstanding arrest warrant for failing to show up at Court on a drug charge is another.
Today there is not a line of instantly employable men standing on the street in front of your production plant hoping you will fire someone that morning so they can work as there was in the 1930's.
My first UAW factory job in the 1950's I stood out front at 4:30AM (second in line) got interviewed at 7:30AM and reported for work at 3PM. That era is gone.

This changes the employer/employee dynamic. To find an employee today that you can actually hire requires sifting through a hundred applications to find one. When your production crew has cost you that much time and effort to find them you are not wanting to have a lot of turn over. SO you offer a benefits package that will keep them. Since they are already getting what you can afford to pay them and good working conditions, there is no incentive to have a Union hung around their neck like a rotting albatross.

Rural states like NC, SC, etc. also have an advantage that the young population does not have as much of the millennial attitude of entitlement as the uber-socialist blue states do. They also do not have entrenched union trolls lurking on every street corner wearing a long coat and hissing, 'hey meester you wanna f**k my seester?'

As you can tell I am not a union fan-boi
Click to expand...
so your point is that some millennials have such a sense of entitlement, that they remind you of boomers ?
 
Private sector unions have been in decline for decades. They are their own worst enemy. Only big cities keep them alive, especially the trade unions. Electrical, Steamfitters, metal workers, plumbers, etc.

This is why our government is so desperate to unionize all Federal, State, and Municipal employees. They need to ensure a pipeline of guranteed money for Democrat candidates to keep the machine growing. The big problem with that is they are using OUR MONEY against our will.
 
JHW said:
so your point is that some millennials have such a sense of entitlement, that they remind you of boomers ?
Click to expand...

Zing. They aren't nearly as bad as the boomers still wrecking whatever is left.
 
JHW said:
so your point is that some millennials have such a sense of entitlement, that they remind you of boomers ?
Click to expand...
Your response was not directed at me,
but I think your conclusion is exactly right. The millenials sense of entitlement is very similar to the attitudes of the collective of boomers. That is why they sound like such hypocrites when they whine about Boomers. Wahhhh, you sucked up all the resources for yourself and not we are going to have to work harder to build something for ourselves.

But both generations were created by the generation before them. Boomers were raised by the "Greatest Generation" and Millennials were raised by the Boomers. Neither generation is more inherently bad than the other.
 
JOhnH said:
Your response was not directed at me,
but I think your conclusion is exactly right. The millenials sense of entitlement is very similar to the attitudes of the collective of boomers. That is why they sound like such hypocrites when they whine about Boomers. Wahhhh, you sucked up all the resources for yourself and not we are going to have to work harder to build something for ourselves.

But both generations were created by the generation before them. Boomers were raised by the "Greatest Generation" and Millennials were raised by the Boomers. Neither generation is more inherently bad than the other.
Click to expand...

Except the well wasn't dry when the boomers showed up.
 
bartmc said:
Except the well wasn't dry when the boomers showed up.
Click to expand...
When do you feel the well went dry?

I don't think you can blame a generation for that. You have to blame the culture. I think the problem was the culture of the "Great Society", which may have arisen during the generation of the Boomers, but trying to lay the blame on the whole generation is irrational. That's like saying you are to blame for Obama being President. Wait, maybe you are!
 
Maybe ????

Can anyone name just ONE company that in the last 50 years benefited by going union ???
 
Dr. O said:
The landscape has changed since Walter Reuther and his thugs organized the auto plants.
Today the jobs do not require just a strong back. Much production machinery has computer or numerical control and the operator has to have training to run it.

Today, the average millennial is not employable for several reasons. Lack of motivation is foremost. Having a weekend/party/daily drug habit is a major reason. Simply not showing up if they don't feel like it is another. Mom will let them live in the basement and feed them, so why bother. And having an outstanding arrest warrant for failing to show up at Court on a drug charge is another.
Today there is not a line of instantly employable men standing on the street in front of your production plant hoping you will fire someone that morning so they can work as there was in the 1930's.
My first UAW factory job in the 1950's I stood out front at 4:30AM (second in line) got interviewed at 7:30AM and reported for work at 3PM. That era is gone.

This changes the employer/employee dynamic. To find an employee today that you can actually hire requires sifting through a hundred applications to find one. When your production crew has cost you that much time and effort to find them you are not wanting to have a lot of turn over. SO you offer a benefits package that will keep them. Since they are already getting what you can afford to pay them and good working conditions, there is no incentive to have a Union hung around their neck like a rotting albatross.

Rural states like NC, SC, etc. also have an advantage that the young population does not have as much of the millennial attitude of entitlement as the uber-socialist blue states do. They also do not have entrenched union trolls lurking on every street corner wearing a long coat and hissing, 'hey meester you wanna f**k my seester?'

As you can tell I am not a union fan-boi
Click to expand...

Wow, what a misinformed opinion of the millennial generation. Not every kid plays video games in his parents' basement and smokes weed all day. In fact most don't. Today's youth aren't much different than the children of generations before them. They probably aren't much more intelligent in terms of factual knowledge, but they are more tech-savvy and much less accepting of "facts" than prior generations. I think you might need to go back to your porch and yell at the youngsters to "get off your lawn". :rofl:
 
N801BH said:
Maybe ????

Can anyone name just ONE company that in the last 50 years benefited by going union ???
Click to expand...

Think of the higher quality work they produce simply because the workers are unionized.

Think of the government jobs they can bid on because they have union labor.
 
N801BH said:
Maybe ????

Can anyone name just ONE company that in the last 50 years benefited by going union ???
Click to expand...

None. Because unions don't benefit the company.

They benefit the middle class. You know, the once thriving backbone of this country?
 
PeeGee said:
None. Because unions don't benefit the company.

They benefit the middle class. You know, the once thriving backbone of this country?
Click to expand...

So forcing the company to go out of business due to inefficiencies, and out of market labor costs helps the middle class? Hmmm, learn something new every day.
 
JOhnH said:
When do you feel the well went dry?

I don't think you can blame a generation for that. You have to blame the culture. I think the problem was the culture of the "Great Society", which may have arisen during the generation of the Boomers, but trying to lay the blame on the whole generation is irrational. That's like saying you are to blame for Obama being President. Wait, maybe you are!
Click to expand...

My generation didn't do it. Not old enough. Things were pretty good post WWII.
That sort of leaves the boomers.
Keep in mind it took 2 of you guys to prop up a SS receipient. It takes 6 of us. I other words were carrying 3 times the load on a system that's on a collision course with failure.
 
Dr. O said:
The landscape has changed since Walter Reuther and his thugs organized the auto plants.
Today the jobs do not require just a strong back. Much production machinery has computer or numerical control and the operator has to have training to run it.

Today, the average millennial is not employable for several reasons. Lack of motivation is foremost. Having a weekend/party/daily drug habit is a major reason. Simply not showing up if they don't feel like it is another. Mom will let them live in the basement and feed them, so why bother. And having an outstanding arrest warrant for failing to show up at Court on a drug charge is another.
Today there is not a line of instantly employable men standing on the street in front of your production plant hoping you will fire someone that morning so they can work as there was in the 1930's.
My first UAW factory job in the 1950's I stood out front at 4:30AM (second in line) got interviewed at 7:30AM and reported for work at 3PM. That era is gone.

This changes the employer/employee dynamic. To find an employee today that you can actually hire requires sifting through a hundred applications to find one. When your production crew has cost you that much time and effort to find them you are not wanting to have a lot of turn over. SO you offer a benefits package that will keep them. Since they are already getting what you can afford to pay them and good working conditions, there is no incentive to have a Union hung around their neck like a rotting albatross.

Rural states like NC, SC, etc. also have an advantage that the young population does not have as much of the millennial attitude of entitlement as the uber-socialist blue states do. They also do not have entrenched union trolls lurking on every street corner wearing a long coat and hissing, 'hey meester you wanna f**k my seester?'

As you can tell I am not a union fan-boi
Click to expand...

Unions are something that employees and companies bring on them selves, lack of communication, greed, etc all this stuff end up requiring a union.

As for the comment about partying on the weekends, what's wrong with that? What someone does in their free time is no ones business as long as it doesn't effect their performance at work.

Back in the 50s 60s the martini lunch was quite popular.
 
Anthony said:
So forcing the company to go out of business due to inefficiencies, and out of market labor costs helps the middle class? Hmmm, learn something new every day.
Click to expand...
yes, because the only way to stay in business is to pay **** wages. No company ever has survived paying a living wage.
All these perks we enjoy today like a 40 hour work weekends off didn't come out of the goodness of people's hearts, unions fought for those benefits.
 
PeeGee said:
yes, because the only way to stay in business is to pay **** wages. No company ever has survived paying a living wage.
All these perks we enjoy today like a 40 hour work weekends off didn't come out of the goodness of people's hearts, unions fought for those benefits.
Click to expand...

hmmmm, systems engineers, and software engineers, and programmers are unionized or not.....

hmmmm, I guess they get paid **** wages.
 
PeeGee said:
yes, because the only way to stay in business is to pay **** wages. No company ever has survived paying a living wage.
All these perks we enjoy today like a 40 hour work weekends off didn't come out of the goodness of people's hearts, unions fought for those benefits.
Click to expand...

Sure they did, back when labor laws didn't exist anywhere near the extent that they do now. Now there are legal protections that will provide most of what any labor union does. Unfortunately, union reps understand that and constantly push for more concessions from the company to justify their existence. It's not about a company wanting to pay below-market wages, it's about giving them a choice of who to promote and how to arrange their workforce in order to remain viable/nimble in the marketplace.

Take oil & gas for example: most companies in the O&G industry pay very well compared to the same position in other industries. It isn't because of the existence of unions. At the same time, with heavy market swings a unionized workforce would be clamoring for people's heads and staging walk-outs every time Schlumberger, Baker Hughes, Halliburton, etc had to lay off workers to remain competitive. I don't need a union to represent me, I can represent myself.
 
bartmc said:
My generation didn't do it. Not old enough. Things were pretty good post WWII.
That sort of leaves the boomers.
Keep in mind it took 2 of you guys to prop up a SS receipient. It takes 6 of us. I other words were carrying 3 times the load on a system that's on a collision course with failure.
Click to expand...

That's because the SSA is now giving money to those who never paid into SS. Seems to be more of them that people who did pay in.
 
PeeGee said:
yes, because the only way to stay in business is to pay **** wages. No company ever has survived paying a living wage.
All these perks we enjoy today like a 40 hour work weekends off didn't come out of the goodness of people's hearts, unions fought for those benefits.
Click to expand...

That's nothing but horse****. Whiny horse**** at that.
 
Unions played a large part in the creation of the middle class in this nation. The Post WWII economic boom went into the hands that made the manufactured goods instead of a few monied interests. Now that private sector unions have been weakened in this country we see far greater economic disparity and a diminishing middle class.
 
steingar said:
Unions played a large part in the creation of the middle class in this nation. The Post WWII economic boom went into the hands that made the manufactured goods instead of a few monied interests. Now that private sector unions have been weakened in this country we see far greater economic disparity and a diminishing middle class.
Click to expand...
The other explanation is that that the business owners and the CEOs still made a fortune. The middle class was able to thrive because "trickle down" worked. But somewhere along the line, the system broke. I don't think it was because people changed as much as the regulatory environment changed. Particularly the tax code.
 
Doesn't matter with open borders unions ain't got a future. Nor does the middle class. Was a nice empire, once upon a time.
 
bartmc said:
My generation didn't do it. Not old enough. Things were pretty good post WWII.
Click to expand...

Things were good post WWII because we were one of the only manufacturing giants left standing. Europe, the Soviets, Japan, and part of China were all bombed to hell. It took several decades for these areas of the world to start producing in quantity.
 
steingar said:
Unions played a large part in the creation of the middle class in this nation. The Post WWII economic boom went into the hands that made the manufactured goods instead of a few monied interests. Now that private sector unions have been weakened in this country we see far greater economic disparity and a diminishing middle class.
Click to expand...

Partly true, but what's the underlying reason? you've described an effect not a cause. Many, many of the middle class manufacturing jobs are just gone. A combination of automation and off-shoring has eliminated them. And off-shoring is only working because labor is still cheaper than machinery there.

I believe that in the long run, automation has and will continue to wipe out jobs. It does reduce costs, but robots don't eat or buy things. Google cars replacing cab drivers? And then Uber drivers. And then...

With an economy based on commerce, employees (and companies) get paid based on perceived value they provide. (I used perceived value because I won't pay a premium for some things, but will for others based on my perception of value, which is probably not yours. My son loves soccer and watching the local professional team play is good value to him. The players get paid (roughly) accordingly. I don't get that much entertainment from it so I don't go.) This equation is hopefully governed by ethics and the understanding that regardless of role, we are still people and should be respected as such. I get paid more than most at my company, but I took the risk to leave a steady job and take this one when it was just two of us. Also, I work a lot of uncompensated hours on things which others don't worry about. But I still fill up the coffee machine rather than expecting the admins to do it, because, hey! they're people and I drink coffee too.

Automation is removing the perceived (and real) value from many jobs that used to be middle class. When a machine can design system architectures and write code, I'll hopefully be retired.

John
 
steingar said:
Unions played a large part in the creation of the middle class in this nation. The Post WWII economic boom went into the hands that made the manufactured goods instead of a few monied interests. Now that private sector unions have been weakened in this country we see far greater economic disparity and a diminishing middle class.
Click to expand...

For a long time, CEO to worker pay hovered around 20x, but now is 10x that and more:



ceopay2graf.jpg
 
JOhnH said:
The other explanation is that that the business owners and the CEOs still made a fortune. The middle class was able to thrive because "trickle down" worked. But somewhere along the line, the system broke. I don't think it was because people changed as much as the regulatory environment changed. Particularly the tax code.
Click to expand...

What worked was that after WW2 , manufactured goods , for the most part made in the U.S. Were purchased by American workers, their biggest customer. Once greed took over and it was a race to find lowest wages, the American manufacturing companys no longer had to placate their workers plus it became a global market instead of a contained market. Not only is the american worker no longer able to join the middle class, he now enjoys a truly miserable retirement program even though, in many instances he or she gave 30 or more years to one company. Check what the average worker at exxon gets compared to management or what Jack welsh at GE got compared to average GE worker. Trickle down as dreamt up by reagans dreamers never has worked, never will. Art laffer is and always was a nut case similar to Allan Greenspan who proved to be totally wrong and finally admitted it.
 
You forgot to mention Bush and Cheney or Haliburton.
Jimmy cooper said:
What worked was that after WW2 , manufactured goods , for the most part made in the U.S. Were purchased by American workers, their biggest customer. Once greed took over and it was a race to find lowest wages, the American manufacturing companys no longer had to placate their workers plus it became a global market instead of a contained market. Not only is the american worker no longer able to join the middle class, he now enjoys a truly miserable retirement program even though, in many instances he or she gave 30 or more years to one company. Check what the average worker at exxon gets compared to management or what Jack welsh at GE got compared to average GE worker. Trickle down as dreamt up by reagans dreamers never has worked, never will. Art laffer is and always was a nut case similar to Allan Greenspan who proved to be totally wrong and finally admitted it.
Click to expand...
 
As a millennial that is also a commercially rated pilot and a mechanical engineer (student) currently on a co-op with a fortune 300 manufacturing company, I think I'll weigh in on this...

From the dozens of manufacturing plants my company has around the country that I've visited, some unionized, some not, I can definitively say that in this day and age unions are not at all beneficial. Unions most definitely had their place during and immediately after the industrial revolution which paved the way to where we are now. But with agencies such as OSHA, unions just aren't needed anymore.

In the plants I've visited with unions the work ethic is not the same. Many of the workers will file a complaint if an engineer helps them with their work because it is work they could have done and potentially gotten overtime for... so they would like to get paid 1.5x for the work they didnt do. It's out of hand.

The unionless plants have some of the hardest working and most fantastic people I have ever met.
 
Last edited:
As a boomer, let me say that reading your post enhances my optimism that all is not lost.
Millennials have been handed a tough situation, but your job is to take what you have and make it better. Some will give up and make it worse and some will make excuses.
But keep your principles, and emulate the work ethic you described in the non-union plants and you and the country will do just fine.

Mtns2Skies said:
As a millennial that is also a commercially rated pilot and a mechanical engineer (student) currently on a co-op with a fortune 300 manufacturing company, I think I'll weigh in on this...

From the dozens of manufacturing plants my company has around the country that I've visited, some unionized, some not, I can definitively say that in this day and age unions are not at all beneficial. Unions most definitely had their place during and immediately after the industrial revolution which paved the way to where we are now. But with agencies such as OSHA, unions just aren't needed anymore.

In the plants I've visited with unions the work ethic is not the same. Many of the workers will file a complain if an engineer helps them with their work because it is work they could have done and potentially gotten overtime for... so they would like to get paid 1.5x for the work they didnt do. It's out of hand.

The unionless plants have some of the hardest working and most fantastic people I have ever met.
Click to expand...
 
JOhnH said:
But both generations were created by the generation before them. Boomers were raised by the "Greatest Generation" and Millennials were raised by the Boomers. Neither generation is more inherently bad than the other.
Click to expand...

What about us Gen X'rs? No one ever liked us.

Guess I'll go back to watching MTV while cutting up my acid-washed jeans.
 
labbadabba said:
What about us Gen X'rs? No one ever liked us.

Guess I'll go back to watching MTV while cutting up my acid-washed jeans.
Click to expand...

That's because as a group you never lived up to your trouble making, world ruining potential. :D
 
If the millenials want to fix things they better start filling icebergs with boomers and pushing them out to sea.:yes::D
JOhnH said:
As a boomer, let me say that reading your post enhances my optimism that all is not lost.
Millennials have been handed a tough situation, but your job is to take what you have and make it better. Some will give up and make it worse and some will make excuses.
But keep your principles, and emulate the work ethic you described in the non-union plants and you and the country will do just fine.
Click to expand...
 
bartmc said:
My generation didn't do it. Not old enough. Things were pretty good post WWII.
That sort of leaves the boomers.
Keep in mind it took 2 of you guys to prop up a SS receipient. It takes 6 of us. I other words were carrying 3 times the load on a system that's on a collision course with failure.
Click to expand...


I thought it was the other way around.... iirc, there was about 21 taxpayers per recipient when it first started, now it is down to single-digit taxpayers per recipient.
 
Bob Noel said:
I thought it was the other way around.... iirc, there was about 21 taxpayers per recipient when it first started, now it is down to single-digit taxpayers per recipient.
Click to expand...

It is. Fingers were in motion before brain was in gear.
 
Unions are like slide rules. At one point in history they were critical to the success of business and the nation. Today, if you tried to run your business with a slide rule you'd be out of business in a flash.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top