Maule ground loop

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supernovae

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supernovae
Maule ground loop

http://youtu.be/Vfy5SRKxO_c

Looks like he escaped much damage (if any at all).

Was it the relaxing of controls and not steering into crosswind that caused this or was it also a combination of excess speed on landing? Seems like he had to fly it into the ground and for a second was relieved it was on the ground but forgot to fly it through with the xwind.

btw, 3 minute marker is where it gets goin
 
Hard to tell, can't really see his controls, but throughout most of that landing it didn't really look like he was on top of things.
 
He was never in control of the airplane. Never on the centerline, and wallowing all over the place for the last two minutes. His feet were completely asleep and he never added crosswind controls ie. right wing down and left rudder.

It looked he was asleep.
 
Airspeed was all over the place. Possibly with his CFI. I think some calm wind practice should be in order first. Glad nobody was hurt, other than ego. All of those gadgets mounted to the panel do not fly the plane in ground effect or help our coordination.

I like my nose-dragger. Less for insurance(for obvious reasons) and less chance of ground looping.
 
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Doesn't look like he "flew it into the ground" - it was pretty close to a three point. Slow to correct for the nose going right and perhaps a bit of a gust to pick up the wing when he over corrected to the left (or perhaps trying to steer with the stick?)?

Should have done a wheel landing and used the brakes to steer. :stirpot::devil:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Doesn't look like he "flew it into the ground" - it was pretty close to a three point. Slow to correct for the nose going right and perhaps a bit of a gust to pick up the wing when he over corrected to the left (or perhaps trying to steer with the stick?)?

Should have done a wheel landing and used the brakes to steer. :stirpot::devil:
Click to expand...

The thing I noticed was how he never seemed to pin the tail - it bounced several times. I wondered if he got preoccupied or distracted by that and neglected to maintain directional control.
 
It appears to me he had a pretty strong crosswind from the right judging by the right wing down inputs he is putting in and the plane not moving right. Judging by the changing bank angles I would also guess it was gusty.

I can't tell if he pinned the tail down, I don't see the yoke forward to indicate he didn't. It looks to me like it started to weather vane to the right, he probably corrected with the ailerons which probably contributed to what appears to be a gust lifting the right wing and initiating the loss of directional control.

My suggestion for a lesson here is to keep the ailerons turned into the wind after touchdown and steer with the rudder.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
It looks to me like it started to weather vane to the right, he probably corrected with the ailerons which probably contributed to what appears to be a gust lifting the right wing and initiating the loss of directional control.

My suggestion for a lesson here is to keep the ailerons turned into the wind after touchdown and steer with the rudder.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...

I agree. It happened to me once on a gusty direct xw landing in a 172. The left tip was only inches from the runway. I finally got it straightened out and have never steered with ailerons on the ground since.
 
I may be looking at it wrong, but he was pretty much lined up with the runway on that long, long final without the need for much correction (I didn't see much, if any). If there had been much crosswind, he would have been blown over.

While there may have been gusts, it just looks like he wasn't flying the airplane.

On occasion, it happens to us all.

Deb
 
kyleb said:
The thing I noticed was how he never seemed to pin the tail - it bounced several times. I wondered if he got preoccupied or distracted by that and neglected to maintain directional control.
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To me, it looked like he was all over the place on short final, then actually managed to get it down without any sidedrift on the touchdown itself, but immediately relaxed and let the wind take over as soon as the wheels touched.
 
Never looped mine but for the grace of yadda yadda...

Perhaps a lack of focus. Perhaps distraction from tal bouncing. Perhaps a wrong control movement followed by giving up on it. Not enough info to really tell.

I know you can get into a loop pretty deeply and still recover if you stay with it. Full controls in the right direction and strong brakes can fix a lot.
 
kgruber said:
He was never in control of the airplane. Never on the centerline, and wallowing all over the place for the last two minutes. His feet were completely asleep and he never added crosswind controls ie. right wing down and left rudder.

It looked he was asleep.
Click to expand...

+1. :yes:


Should have been landing on the grass at that skill level.
 
N1347B said:
I may be looking at it wrong, but he was pretty much lined up with the runway on that long, long final without the need for much correction (I didn't see much, if any). If there had been much crosswind, he would have been blown over.

While there may have been gusts, it just looks like he wasn't flying the airplane.

On occasion, it happens to us all.
Click to expand...

On the contrary, I think he was trying to hold the sideslip in on final...you see the yoke over hard right much of the time and the ball hard right. So instead of crabbing, then kicking out the crab at the end, he was trying to hold the sideslip all the way in...with varying degrees of success, so it probably was a bit gusty.
 
LDJones said:
On the contrary, I think he was trying to hold the sideslip in on final...you see the yoke over hard right much of the time and the ball hard right. So instead of crabbing, then kicking out the crab at the end, he was trying to hold the sideslip all the way in...with varying degrees of success, so it probably was a bit gusty.
Click to expand...

He had no success. He groundlooped.

After a handful of hours overlooking the nose of a light tail wheel airplane, I'm pretty sure the crosswind was minimal.

And we wonder why our insurance is so expensive.

Deb
 
Clearly caused by too much electronics in the panel.
 
I think it was the gloves... notice he takes them off when it's all over. :D

He definitely had full right aileron in there as he rounded out... I'm curious about what the wind was doing, because it may have been worse than it looks. Not sure what he was doing when the right wing came up, but I'll bet a gust helped with that.
And I sense he is pretty green... got way flat on final, having to add power at one point. And overall, the approach was a little tentative, like he was not confident with the airplane. And the bottom line is that he probably could have gone around but chose to salvage it... another sign of someone new to the Maule or taildraggers in general.
 
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I am just guessing here...the cotton glove may help with sweaty palms. Sweaty palms can be caused by anxiety or being nervous.
 
Seems like he took the crosswind correction out after the plane was on the ground, rather than using the ailerons correctly to hold the upwind wind down as they decelerated.

Ailerons came neutral, upwind wing lifted, pivot on downwind wheel.
 
lr60plt said:
Seems like he took the crosswind correction out after the plane was on the ground, rather than using the ailerons correctly to hold the upwind wind down as they decelerated.

Ailerons came neutral, upwind wing lifted, pivot on downwind wheel.
Click to expand...

Hard to see the actual control inputs, but it does look that way to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Fearless Tower said:
Hard to see the actual control inputs, but it does look that way to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Yeah, I watched it a couple times focusing on the right yoke. You can see where he has any right aileron in by it sticking into the screen. The only thing would be if it came any further back to hold the tail down it might be out of the picture....but I dont think so.
 
Not too much of a "loop" there. Yeah, he loses control and departs the runway but it looks like he never turned more than about 90 degrees.
 
lr60plt said:
Seems like he took the crosswind correction out after the plane was on the ground, rather than using the ailerons correctly to hold the upwind wind down as they decelerated.

Ailerons came neutral, upwind wing lifted, pivot on downwind wheel.
Click to expand...


That's what happened. Too many pilots think the flight is over once the wheels are on the ground. That applies to trike pilots as much as taildragger pilots, too, since I have seen ailerons go neutral and the upwind wing rise. And sometimes the trike leaves the runway.

Dan
 
LDJones said:
On the contrary, I think he was trying to hold the sideslip in on final...you see the yoke over hard right much of the time and the ball hard right. So instead of crabbing, then kicking out the crab at the end, he was trying to hold the sideslip all the way in...with varying degrees of success, so it probably was a bit gusty.
Click to expand...

Interesting on the crab and kick method. When I was first learning in a C150, that's all I did.

When I transitioned to conventional, my J3 instructor commented, "how do you know if you can hold it against the crosswind, wing low with rudder on landing with a crab approach?" the idea being, wing low and rudder on final, if you can't track center line against the crosswind on final, chances are you won't be able to for the landing.
 
BillTIZ said:
Interesting on the crab and kick method. When I was first learning in a C150, that's all I did.

When I transitioned to conventional, my J3 instructor commented, "how do you know if you can hold it against the crosswind, wing low with rudder on landing with a crab approach?" the idea being, wing low and rudder on final, if you can't track center line against the crosswind on final, chances are you won't be able to for the landing.
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I generally teach students to start slipping into the wind really early on final. Mostly to get the cross controlled concept in their head.

Myself, I don't usually transition into the slip until about 50 feet. The reality of it is that the wind at the surface is pretty much always different in both strength and direction so you never really know until you get to the surface.
 
Dan Thomas said:
That's what happened. Too many pilots think the flight is over once the wheels are on the ground.
Click to expand...

How many threads started by someone having problems landing have you seen here? Everyone talkes about the flare and the touchdown. Have you ever seen a thread about the rollout? We talk about "greasers" or "dropping it on" or "bouncing" and that's the end of it. The roll out is spend evaluating the quality of the touchdown. :dunno: That just seems to be the way it is.

BillTIZ said:
Interesting on the crab and kick method. When I was first learning in a C150, that's all I did.

I still remember the expression on my instructors face as the wind picked up one wing as I went past him on my first solo landing...

When I transitioned to conventional, my J3 instructor commented, "how do you know if you can hold it against the crosswind, wing low with rudder on landing with a crab approach?" the idea being, wing low and rudder on final, if you can't track center line against the crosswind on final, chances are you won't be able to for the landing.
Click to expand...

That's what you get for flying a J3 with POS brakes. ;)

In the Cessna 120, I would bring it in a little hot (so I had solid control), set the mains down and steer with the brakes. No need to worry about running out of rudder.
 
I didn't like how much he was oscillating both in pitch and roll throughout the final, and I'm a nosedragger guy. I'm sure the CFIs have seen worse, much worse, but he was behind the airplane long before it touched down. Anyone watch the stall warning on the panel throughout final?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Have you ever seen a thread about the rollout? We talk about "greasers" or "dropping it on" or "bouncing" and that's the end of it. The roll out is spend evaluating the quality of the touchdown.
Click to expand...

The rollout, for sure, is where a lot of crosswind accidents happen, and the pilot needs to be paying attention to flying the airplane, not evaluating the touchdown.

As the airplane slows, the crosswind vector becomes larger. If the wind was directly across the runway at 15 knots, and the airplane touches down at 45, say, that give us a relative wind of 18.4 degrees off the nose. That's quite manageable. At 30 knots in the rollout, it's 26.6 degrees. At 15, it's 45 degrees. Expensive and embarrassing stuff tends to happen as aileron and rudder control is lost with decreasing airspeed and increasing crosswind vector. In the old Aeronca Champs, the ones with that soft oleo gear, the last 25 kts or so was where it started to lean over out of the wind in spite of full aileron, and one had to really be on the ball.

It's also why touch-and go crosswind training is less than ideal.

Dan
 
jesse said:
The reality of it is that the wind at the surface is pretty much always different in both strength and direction so you never really know until you get to the surface.
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Agreed, and normally it is less intensity.
 
Dan Thomas said:
That's what happened. Too many pilots think the flight is over once the wheels are on the ground. That applies to trike pilots as much as taildragger pilots, too, since I have seen ailerons go neutral and the upwind wing rise. And sometimes the trike leaves the runway.

Dan
Click to expand...

I once allowed an instructor to land my Luscombe. He did a good job until he took his feet off the rudders on the roll out.

An experience I don't think I will ever forget. :-0

Deb
 
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