Mastering So. Cal. ATC

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
:confused: OK, so after a 40 year hiatus, my flying skills are coming back fast. This weekend, I tackled my tendency to flare 2 feet too high, which was probably a result of too much time on Microsoft Flight Sim!

But one challenge remains - a big one. In So. Cal., the ATC rules are incredibly complex. The controllers at my home airport (Van Nuys, one of the busiest airports anywhere) talk fast, expect immediate repeats of complex instructions (as well they should), and have a low tolerance for even small mistakes (can't blame them).

Add to that the myriad of special rules and permissions to go anywhere, and that's my challenge.

Question....I feel bad about learning all this "live" by using the system. Does anyone have suggestions so I don't bog down the system with little (hopefully not big) mistakes? I was thinking of ordering Sporty's COMM training package. How can I get good at this?

Just want to do this right and not "tax" the airwaves! :dunno:
 
Don't waste your money on the Sportys video.

Best advice is to go to liveatc.net and/or get a handheld radio or scanner and spend as much time as possible listening to VNY tower and SoCal approach frequencies. The more you hear the typical radio exchanges, the more comfortable you will be talking on the radio yourself.
 
Great suggestion on liveatc, Fearless! Already listening. Will listen from my car on the way to work also.
 
Try out PilotEdge with your favorite flight sim. Real ATC, no Hobbes meter. SoCal is covered.
 
FAA A.I.M. 4-2-1 (b)
".... Since concise phraseology may not always be adequate, use whatever words are necessary to get your message across..... "
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:wink2:
 
VWGhiaBob said:
But one challenge remains - a big one. In So. Cal., the ATC rules are incredibly complex. The controllers at my home airport (Van Nuys, one of the busiest airports anywhere) talk fast, expect immediate repeats of complex instructions (as well they should), and have a low tolerance for even small mistakes (can't blame them).

Add to that the myriad of special rules and permissions to go anywhere, and that's my challenge.

Question....I feel bad about learning all this "live" by using the system. Does anyone have suggestions so I don't bog down the system with little (hopefully not big) mistakes? I was thinking of ordering Sporty's COMM training package. How can I get good at this?
Click to expand...

KVNY ATC is usually pretty laid back, must have been a bad day for the controllers, and I will agree they do have some quirks on their clearances.. LDA-C into VNY is one of my IFR practice approaches and they are usually very accommodating.

On thing that helped me was to get a hand held and listen to the frequencies for a while while doing the pre-flight as it gave me and idea what to expect from CD, Ground, and Tower...

Can I ask what departure clearance they gave you?
 
Highly recommend "Say Again, Please" by Bob Gardner, who posts on this board but won't toot his own horn to advertize his book. Follow the advise in this book and you will be able to communicate the most usable information by using the least unnecessary words. http://www.amazon.com/Say-Again-Please-Guide-Communications/dp/1560277602

LiveATC or listening to the scanner is great for getting used to listening to the flow from the controllers, but please don't pattern your replies off of the other pilots. There is a whole lot of poor communication technique out there, and that includes the airline pilots.
 
slacktide said:
LiveATC or listening to the scanner is great for getting used to listening to the flow from the controllers, but please don't pattern your replies off of the other pilots. There is a whole lot of poor communication technique out there, and that includes the airline pilots.
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Yeah, I'm with you! :)

I'll admit to using those two words a time or two in the dark, long past after hearing airline pilots do the same.
 
slacktide said:
Highly recommend "Say Again, Please" by Bob Gardner, who posts on this board but won't toot his own horn to advertize his book. Follow the advise in this book and you will be able to communicate the most usable information by using the least unnecessary words. http://www.amazon.com/Say-Again-Please-Guide-Communications/dp/1560277602
Click to expand...

Came to say this. Excellent book, and must-read for my primary students.

VNY is some party airspace. If the old "student pilot" on initial callup doesn't spare you the ATC auctioneer mode, then liveATC is probably the way to go.
 
Well, OP, I'be flyinh tomorrow AM - I offered on another thread to help you with your iPad and FF problems and got blown off there - and now offer again to take you tomorrow - we can go land at VNY in the am - and then buzz over to CMA for b-fast-

maybe even get an instrument approach into CMA if you've never done that . . . .

PM me - or not.

ATC is not something you learn from a book - and not something you learn even listening - except insofar as it gives you the ability to hear what you did not hear before.

Go listen to ORD/JFK/BOS/LAX ground. Have a map out. When a flight checks in after landing [know where they are landing airplanes] you need to know where they are and where they are going. . . . you don't have that info but can figure it out.

Lets start with JetBlue flights - all out of Terminal 5. And going to Terminal 5. Figure out where the flight landed - they call - and they get taxi instructions to the terminal - listen, write them down - then trace them. You will notice that they are all pretty much the same.

Now go to another airport, do that with departing flights -thats where the complex taxi instructions may happen. DFW is a good one for this - since there are a gazillion and three taxiways there.
 
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comanchepilot said:
maybe even get an instrument approach into CMA if you've never done that . . . .

PM me - or not.
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Wednesday is Tri-Tip day at the Way-Point Cafe @ CMA. I will be there around 12:30..1:00 if you want to meet for lunch.
 
Thanks again, everyone. This site is incredibly helpful. :D

I am listening to KVNY every day for an hour in my car. I practice answering each tower call correctly. My first impression: :rolleyes: Gosh...many pilots make mistakes. The worst one is not reading back the runway...which at Van Nuys is a huge issue: Two close parallel runways...one short for GA and one long for corporate jets. :hairraise:

I'm in the middle of installing PilotEdge on my simulator at home. Usual tech stuff....spent 3 hours resolving technical issues last night. Hopefully it all works tonight. :rolleyes2:

I also ordered and will read "Say Again Please" and will try the suggestion to listen to more complex airports like LAX and DFW once I "master" KVNY.

Again, thanks! :yesnod:
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Thanks again, everyone. This site is incredibly helpful. :D

I am listening to KVNY every day for an hour in my car. I practice answering each tower call correctly. My first impression: :rolleyes: Gosh...many pilots make mistakes. The worst one is not reading back the runway...which at Van Nuys is a huge issue: Two close parallel runways...one short for GA and one long for corporate jets. :hairraise:

I'm in the middle of installing PilotEdge on my simulator at home. Usual tech stuff....spent 3 hours resolving technical issues last night. Hopefully it all works tonight. :rolleyes2:

I also ordered and will read "Say Again Please" and will try the suggestion to listen to more complex airports like LAX and DFW once I "master" KVNY.

Again, thanks! :yesnod:
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Bob,

I am looking for a safety pilot from time to time if you're interested... could be a good way to hear and learn as well..
 
Thanks for the invite, Ventucky. I would like to learn more. At this point, keep in mind I'm a guy who has had a lifelong passion for flying, but am very rusty. First time back in the pilot's seat in decades was 3 weeks ago. I have zero IFR experience.

But I'm coming back fast and plan to get an IFR, so please keep me posted!
 
Ventucky Red said:
Wednesday is Tri-Tip day at the Way-Point Cafe @ CMA. I will be there around 12:30..1:00 if you want to meet for lunch.
Click to expand...

nice idea = gonna be IMC much of the day with supposed low pressure moving in - but I'll give it a shot - no ILS at CMA so the ceilings need to be a little higher than normal around here to get in.

Never been to Waypoint for tri-tip - I'm in the white green and gold Comanche - are you driving in?
 
comanchepilot said:
nice idea = gonna be IMC much of the day with supposed low pressure moving in - but I'll give it a shot - no ILS at CMA so the ceilings need to be a little higher than normal around here to get in.

Never been to Waypoint for tri-tip - I'm in the white green and gold Comanche - are you driving in?
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Check your PM
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Thanks for the invite, Ventucky. I would like to learn more. At this point, keep in mind I'm a guy who has had a lifelong passion for flying, but am very rusty. First time back in the pilot's seat in decades was 3 weeks ago. I have zero IFR experience.

But I'm coming back fast and plan to get an IFR, so please keep me posted!
Click to expand...

All you need to do as a safety pilot is make sure I don't hit anything while flying under the hood in VFR...

I'll shoot you a PM with my contact info..
 
+1 "Say Again, Please"

+1 Live ATC

What really helped me when I moved my plane from Santa Monica to Whiteman, (airports on either side of VNY) I made an appointment and visited the tower on a slow day. The controllers were very helpful and gave me all the local approach and departure lingo, usual procedures, reporting points, and how they like to give squawk codes on the ground. Made my life (and theirs) much easier. I've never visited VNY tower, but they've always been great on the radio and I love "One Six Right."
 
slacktide said:
Highly recommend "Say Again, Please" by Bob Gardner, who posts on this board but won't toot his own horn to advertize his book. Follow the advise in this book and you will be able to communicate the most usable information by using the least unnecessary words. http://www.amazon.com/Say-Again-Please-Guide-Communications/dp/1560277602

LiveATC or listening to the scanner is great for getting used to listening to the flow from the controllers, but please don't pattern your replies off of the other pilots. There is a whole lot of poor communication technique out there, and that includes the airline pilots.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I did when I got back to flying after 10 years away (with very little controlled airspace flying before).
 
No pm fyi - interesting . . .usually they go through fast

OXR TAF shows a 2000' ceiling at noon - so it should work out fine -

I'm thinking that with a cutoff low moving in from the ocean to the south of us the flow around it will be NE - which should bring the clouds out even while the middle level stuff starts to come down - but with this type of low we usually see 5000-6000' ceilings so there should be some transition in the aftn . ..

Anyway - I"ll plan for an 1145 departure - should get me into CMA right around 1230p -
 
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I'll be back in town in June if you're ever looking for a buddy to sit up next to the red line at VNY and watch planes/listen to ATC. I have a scanner and to me that's really a nice way to relax. And when I get back I'll be interested in getting in contact w anyone else who wants to fly around somewhere.
 
comanchepilot said:
Well, OP, I'be flyinh tomorrow AM - I offered on another thread to help you with your iPad and FF problems and got blown off there - and now offer again to take you tomorrow - we can go land at VNY in the am - and then buzz over to CMA for b-fast-

maybe even get an instrument approach into CMA if you've never done that . . . .

PM me - or not.

ATC is not something you learn from a book - and not something you learn even listening - except insofar as it gives you the ability to hear what you did not hear before.

Go listen to ORD/JFK/BOS/LAX ground. Have a map out. When a flight checks in after landing [know where they are landing airplanes] you need to know where they are and where they are going. . . . you don't have that info but can figure it out.

Lets start with JetBlue flights - all out of Terminal 5. And going to Terminal 5. Figure out where the flight landed - they call - and they get taxi instructions to the terminal - listen, write them down - then trace them. You will notice that they are all pretty much the same.

Now go to another airport, do that with departing flights -thats where the complex taxi instructions may happen. DFW is a good one for this - since there are a gazillion and three taxiways there.
Click to expand...

Next time you fly into CMA let me know, lunch is on me.
 
From what I've seen, treat SoCal like you're an airliner, even if you're VFR, and they will love you.

Request everything, don't tell them anything.

Oh, and forget the fact that its just like any other Class C, D or B in the United States; they've done a good job of convincing all of the locals that they're special, and you'll ruin it for them if you point out that they're not.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
I'm in the middle of installing PilotEdge on my simulator at home. Usual tech stuff....spent 3 hours resolving technical issues last night. Hopefully it all works tonight. :rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

It should take about 30 secs if you're using a compatible simulator. If you need help, PM me, I'll get you up and running quickly.

You really are in the sweet spot for the PE user base.

A couple of pilots from BUR/WHP/VNY have used it to help get their instrument ticket and have reported a positive experience and a pretty hefty cost saving. There are also certified training devices in the area (two around EMT and one just west of VNY) that have PilotEdge installed on them. This will allow you to work with an instructor and work on your IFR radio comms.

Note: I am related to the PilotEdge venture.
 
Thanks, Coma...got it all set up. Ended up listening to liveatc.net...really helped! PilotEdge rocks too!
 
It's been years since I dealt with SoCal, but I always got what I wanted from them almost instantly......you just start all transmissions with: "Rescue 1234".....then tell them what you want...works wonders. YMMV :D :yesnod:

Seriously, the advice you have been given is very sound. Do your best and keep it short, they are really good at picking up cues from inexperienced pilots and their job is to integrate all traffic, Not all controllers are ogres, (Except maybe those at NYC and Boston)
 
Thanks for all the advice, folks! I'm happy to say that by following it, So Cal ATC, including KVNY and I are great friends now. What helped the most: www.liveatc.net. I listened to and from work for about 2 weeks and that did the trick.

Much appreciated!
 
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