Mandatory Grounding

Downcycle

Filing Flight Plan
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Downcycle
I know that I shouldn't expect rational operation from a governmental agency, but in preparing for my own medical exam I had a very disturbing conversation with a friend of mine. This is a friend from college who has since become a very talented pediatric cardiac surgeon. I'm not the type of person who gets really impressed by someone being in school forever or having a bunch of letters after their name, but I think that he deserves a certain amount of respect for achieving that level of training in his chosen profession.

His dad is a pilot, and so I told him I was finally following through on something we had talked about back in school, and I asked him if he'd be interested in taking a discovery flight with me (also secretly hoping he would want to split a plane after we got our licenses). He responded by telling me that he had been disqualified for an ADD diagnosis. He took meds for a number of years until he felt like he had learned the skills necessary to manage his time and focus accordingly and he doesn't really notice it anymore.

So here's my beef: if this guy can handle the stress of a 10 hour valve repair on an infant, why the heck wouldn't he be able to handle the stress of a small aircraft?!? I understand that becoming distracted in a plane has the potential to cause significant damage and loss of life, but this guy probably hold a dozen lives in his hands every single week. The saddest part is that his dad keeps pressuring him to get his license and he is just pretending like he's not interested because he's afraid that telling his dad the truth will crush him since his parents are the ones that initially took him for the diagnosis.

I think it is ridiculous that something like ADD can prohibit you for life from flying even if you learn to manage it. I know people will say "you may learn to manage it, but when the SHTF, you're management may fall apart". I completely reject this notion. I honestly think that ADD is most often just a diagnosis of a kid who didn't learn those skills when everyone else did. Then they are sort of in over their heads with school so they prescribe meds to help them learn the skills. I don't agree with the idea of protracted ADD med use, but if someone feels like they need it for a little while to help them, why not?

Really that is all besides the point. With the rise of ADD diagnoses in recent decades, and its almost complete absence >30 years ago, how many great pilots probably had ADD...in fact, how many people on this forum may have ADD that were never diagnosed because it so infrequently diagnosed >30 years ago? It really bums me out that he can't ever get his ppl.
 
I mean, I can understand someone with Schizophrenia never being allowed to fly, or a history or reckless behavior, but if you had ADD as a kid but now you can successfully pass a flight exam, why the heck can't you fly? I wonder if you looked at the down trend in number of pilots over the past decade, if that would correlate with the increase in number of ADD diagnoses 20 years prior? If so, the number of new pilots each year will probably keep declining.
 
There is an old saying that is completely out of date now days. Honesty is the best policy.


ADD is a fad now, if your kid doesn't have it, and not on meds there is something wrong you as a parent. We have a niece that is ADD, and on meds. All she needs is a little corporal punishment and she would be fine. She is a great kid, I took her flying. Curious, engaging, intelligent questions, but mom & dad can't handle her "youthful enthusiasm" so they give her meds. :mad2:
 
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I mean, I can understand someone with Schizophrenia never being allowed to fly, or a history or reckless behavior, but if you had ADD as a kid but now you can successfully pass a flight exam, why the heck can't you fly? I wonder if you looked at the down trend in number of pilots over the past decade, if that would correlate with the increase in number of ADD diagnoses 20 years prior? If so, the number of new pilots each year will probably keep declining.

It is the goal of the FAA & NTSB to limit GA so as to not have more people flying individual planes that take up space in the system. The FAA is NOT there to encourage or promote GA. Their mission is to discourage it.
 
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Another leg of the conspiracy stool is the vast sums of money generated by biomed companies that have offered a 'cure' for ADD. The greatest thing about this is that they can charge the feds a nice amount per pill and the 'cure' requires you to take the med forever, and ever, and ever, and ever...

Nice revenue stream if you can only convince family doctors, nurses, and school admins that every child who has ever misbehaved is not a naughty child but suffers from a treatable 'syndrome' by taking this pill every day.

Wish I'd thought it up, I'd be much richer today.
 
Wish I'd thought it up, I'd be much richer today.

I wish I could come up with a way to convince them to get rid of what amounts to a mandatory minimum sentence for a ridiculous reason... maybe GA would have more great pilots. At least now I know that I will never allow my kids to get an ADD diagnosis, I'll just take Geico's advice and hit them with a switch... just kidding...
 
I'm also going to submit a grievance to the FAA for costing me a great airplane co-owner. To save time I'll go ahead and put it directly in the trash.
 
I feel very similar WRT the parallel discussion in another thread of minor depression being [essentially] a lifetime grounding event -- for the vast majority of 3d class recreational pilots, the FAA's hurdles are just too onerous.

This country has been economically in the ****ter for six years with no end in sight, but if a pilot doesn't walk around whistling "Zippity-Do-Da" (.WAV link - NSFW) at all times, the problem is with the pilot. Right...

p!$$... leg... rain...
 
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I wish I could come up with a way to convince them to get rid of what amounts to a mandatory minimum sentence for a ridiculous reason... maybe GA would have more great pilots. At least now I know that I will never allow my kids to get an ADD diagnosis, I'll just take Geico's advice and hit them with a switch... just kidding...


Save a tree. A swat on the butt with an open hand never hurt anyone, and did most kids a hell of a lot of good. ;)
 
If you are a kid, you don't know what your parents are actually giving you. It may have been Vitamin D. Unless you were treated on a military base, they have no access to you medical records.
There were three rules to a successful Air Force career. Deny, deny, deny.
 
Most of these FAA rules seem to be written for the era when visiting a shrink was the exception not the rule.
 
If you are a kid, you don't know what your parents are actually giving you. It may have been Vitamin D. Unless you were treated on a military base, they have no access to you medical records.
There were three rules to a successful Air Force career. Deny, deny, deny.

There is a lot of practical advice here . . .
 
If you are a kid, you don't know what your parents are actually giving you. It may have been Vitamin D. Unless you were treated on a military base, they have no access to you medical records.
There were three rules to a successful Air Force career. Deny, deny, deny.

What am I denying? I don't recall anything that I would deny.
 
I think it is ridiculous that something like ADD can prohibit you for life from flying even if you learn to manage it. I know people will say "you may learn to manage it, but when the SHTF, you're management may fall apart". I completely reject this notion. I honestly think that ADD is most often just a diagnosis of a kid who didn't learn those skills when everyone else did. Then they are sort of in over their heads with school so they prescribe meds to help them learn the skills. I don't agree with the idea of protracted ADD med use, but if someone feels like they need it for a little while to help them, why not?

Here is the problem with your argument: ADD is real, and some folks have it and should not be PIC in any aircraft. The fact that it has become a fad diagnosis for whatever reason is not relevant to the FAA mindset. Your buddy has been diagnosed and now unfortunately the burden is on him to disprove that diagnosis.

Send him to Doctor Bruce by email, keeping all communications off the web. Doc B will let him know if a recission of the diagnosis is possible and what it will cost. Moaning about it here will get you nowhere.

I'm not a-sympathetic to your rant, however. 'Tis a problem and it sucks but there it is. Doc B is one of the very few who can find a way out of this... if there is one. Get your friend moving on this!

-Skip
 
Most of these FAA rules seem to be written for the era when visiting a shrink was the exception not the rule.

This is an excellent thesis of what I'm feeling.

Skip, I don't disagree that ADD is real, but saying it should unequivocally disqualify you from flying is like saying that cancer should unequivocally disqualify you from flying. This is definitely true if someone has stage IV liver cancer, they probably should not be flying, but if they have a melanoma is that a good reason to prohibit flying? There are always gradations with humans, and the within-group variation is almost always greater than the between-group variation.

I will tell my friend about this forum and about Dr Bruce and see if hes willing to give it a go, but honestly, he seems pretty cynical about the whole thing, so I don't know what he'll say.
 
Skip, I don't disagree that ADD is real, but saying it should unequivocally disqualify you from flying is like saying that cancer should unequivocally disqualify you from flying. This is definitely true if someone has stage IV liver cancer, they probably should not be flying, but if they have a melanoma is that a good reason to prohibit flying? There are always gradations with humans, and the within-group variation is almost always greater than the between-group variation.

Now lets look in the medical texts and the psych diagnosis bible. I think it is called the DSM4 but it might be up to DSM5 now. I dunno.... I am definitely not a medical professional.

The problem is there is no such thing as Stage 1 ADD, Stage 2 ADD, etc. It is ADD or nothing. (And, by the way, ADD is a lifetime diagnosis.) Which means the medical community cannot distinguish between those ADD folks who are ok to fly, and those ADD folks who can't. So if they can't make the differential diagnosis, how do you propose to make that differential diagnosis?

Now factor in Senator Blowhard whose constituent's children have just been killed by a plane crash (I'm thinking of the tragic crash at KHVN now, although there is no evidence whatsoever that ADD had anything to do with it - this is a hypothetical) whose pilot had "flyable ADD" whatever that means, and the good Senator waltzes into the FAA and demands that the bonehead MD who authorized the regs under which these dangerous pilots can fly be fired, and the regs be changed....

I will tell my friend about this forum and about Dr Bruce and see if hes willing to give it a go, but honestly, he seems pretty cynical about the whole thing, so I don't know what he'll say.

Your friend is cynical, or Dr. Bruce is? IMHO Dr. Bruce is not cynical. He is, however, hard over against people who poorly understand the medical situation and are willing to lie about what they have because "I feel fine!" If your friend is looking for an honest answer to the question "can I get a medical" there is none better to query than Bruce. But surely you and your friend must understand that sometimes the answer is "no". That sucks, but ... that's the truth. Let's hope Bruce can be helpful, and your friend is willing to walk that difficult path.

-Skip
 
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the problem with that view is that you can take a test to show that you no longer have the cancer. You can't definitively be cured of a defect of the mind, heck people can't even agree on the definition of the disease much less a cure.
Skip, I don't disagree that ADD is real, but saying it should unequivocally disqualify you from flying is like saying that cancer should unequivocally disqualify you from flying.
 
Oh there is a definition, allright. But the neurospych profiling (population normed) ain't cheap.

Now there is a move on the FASMB (licensing boards) to DQ docs on the question-aire at renewal, "do you have any illness that might impair your ability to perform your duties?"
 
Down, I sympathize, I am only flying today because my parents took a stand against the school district when the teachers and admins (no docs, thank god) "diagnosed" me ADHD and wanted me to visit their Dr for the sole purpose of getting me on drugs.

I was out of that school in under a week.


Oh and why was I ADHD? In 2nd grade I walked down the hallway one day avoiding stepping on the seams between the tiles. You know, acting like a normal kid!!!
 
Down, I sympathize, I am only flying today because my parents took a stand against the school district when the teachers and admins (no docs, thank god) "diagnosed" me ADHD and wanted me to visit their Dr for the sole purpose of getting me on drugs.

I was out of that school in under a week.


Oh and why was I ADHD? In 2nd grade I walked down the hallway one day avoiding stepping on the seams between the tiles. You know, acting like a normal kid!!!

The exact same thing was tried on my kids. Both of them in grade school and the admin had us in and after a few probing questions the ADHD comment was made. I stood up immediately and asked if she was an MD, and if this was a clinical diagnosis. Both answers were no. After that I said if anything were written down anywhere about a medical diagnosis, or the letters ADD or ADHD was written in any of their reports, the next people they would be discussing this with is my atty, and he'll be filing a huge lawsuit against you personally, and the school district. That got her attention. I told her I wanted to review all the files kept on my kids immediately, and she refused, so I said I'll have my atty be in touch.

A few days later she called back and said it was all taken care, of and the kids were doing fine, and there is no reason to proceed with any legal requests. I told her it was too late, and they would not be requests, they would be demands. She faxed the kids records over that afternoon, and no mention of any clinical diagnosis anywhere.

FF to now, and my son graduated a year early, is considering grad school, he has one of the highest GPAs in his univ. My daughter graduated two years early, started college at 15, and is in the genius realm. She has a degree in Chem Eng at 20, and is going to MIT as a grad student next year. I think back, and they both could have been drugged into a stupor. This ADD/ADHD stuff is killing the best and brightest of a whole generation.
 
It is the goal of the FAA & NTSB to limit GA so as to not have more people flying individual planes that take up space in the system. The FAA is NOT there to encourage or promote GA. Their mission is to discourage it.

This issue goes well beyond GA. All those part 121 pilots hold first Class medical certificates.
 
I know that I shouldn't expect rational operation from a governmental agency, but in preparing for my own medical exam I had a very disturbing conversation with a friend of mine. This is a friend from college who has since become a very talented pediatric cardiac surgeon. I'm not the type of person who gets really impressed by someone being in school forever or having a bunch of letters after their name, but I think that he deserves a certain amount of respect for achieving that level of training in his chosen profession.

His dad is a pilot, and so I told him I was finally following through on something we had talked about back in school, and I asked him if he'd be interested in taking a discovery flight with me (also secretly hoping he would want to split a plane after we got our licenses). He responded by telling me that he had been disqualified for an ADD diagnosis. He took meds for a number of years until he felt like he had learned the skills necessary to manage his time and focus accordingly and he doesn't really notice it anymore.

So here's my beef: if this guy can handle the stress of a 10 hour valve repair on an infant, why the heck wouldn't he be able to handle the stress of a small aircraft?!? I understand that becoming distracted in a plane has the potential to cause significant damage and loss of life, but this guy probably hold a dozen lives in his hands every single week. The saddest part is that his dad keeps pressuring him to get his license and he is just pretending like he's not interested because he's afraid that telling his dad the truth will crush him since his parents are the ones that initially took him for the diagnosis.

I think it is ridiculous that something like ADD can prohibit you for life from flying even if you learn to manage it. I know people will say "you may learn to manage it, but when the SHTF, you're management may fall apart". I completely reject this notion. I honestly think that ADD is most often just a diagnosis of a kid who didn't learn those skills when everyone else did. Then they are sort of in over their heads with school so they prescribe meds to help them learn the skills. I don't agree with the idea of protracted ADD med use, but if someone feels like they need it for a little while to help them, why not?

Really that is all besides the point. With the rise of ADD diagnoses in recent decades, and its almost complete absence >30 years ago, how many great pilots probably had ADD...in fact, how many people on this forum may have ADD that were never diagnosed because it so infrequently diagnosed >30 years ago? It really bums me out that he can't ever get his ppl.

Does the guy have a driver's license? If so, I would suggest that he consider going for a sport pilot certificate. While it has limitations, I would think it would be a lot better than being grounded.

He should probably consult a doctor (other than himself) about whether he is safe to fly given his medical history, but I would think that would be a lot less expensive than going through the formal process that would be required to get a medical certificate.

If he did become a sport pilot, he would then be in a good position to see if he was sufficiently motivated to go through the time and expense to try to invalidate the diagnosis for the purpose of becoming a private pilot.
 
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...Now there is a move on the FASMB (licensing boards) to DQ docs on the question-aire at renewal, "do you have any illness that might impair your ability to perform your duties?"

Destroying people's careers over something that "might" happen is really beyond the pale, IMO. :(
 
Your friend is cynical, or Dr. Bruce is?

Sorry for the lack of a direct subject in my previous post, I was saying my friend is cynical, not Dr. Bruce.

And to you question about how do I propose they decide if people with add can fly, the same way they decide if all the people with undiagnosed add can fly, put them in a plane. I add is really a reason to ground someone then they shouldn't be able to pass a flight test, if they can then they are either ok to fly or the test isn't doing its job.
 
The exact same thing was tried on my kids. Both of them in grade school and the admin had us in and after a few probing questions the ADHD comment was made. I stood up immediately and asked if she was an MD, and if this was a clinical diagnosis. Both answers were no. After that I said if anything were written down anywhere about a medical diagnosis, or the letters ADD or ADHD was written in any of their reports, the next people they would be discussing this with is my atty, and he'll be filing a huge lawsuit against you personally, and the school district. That got her attention. I told her I wanted to review all the files kept on my kids immediately, and she refused, so I said I'll have my atty be in touch.

A few days later she called back and said it was all taken care, of and the kids were doing fine, and there is no reason to proceed with any legal requests. I told her it was too late, and they would not be requests, they would be demands. She faxed the kids records over that afternoon, and no mention of any clinical diagnosis anywhere.

FF to now, and my son graduated a year early, is considering grad school, he has one of the highest GPAs in his univ. My daughter graduated two years early, started college at 15, and is in the genius realm. She has a degree in Chem Eng at 20, and is going to MIT as a grad student next year. I think back, and they both could have been drugged into a stupor. This ADD/ADHD stuff is killing the best and brightest of a whole generation.

I think you hit on something, the real reason IMO they wanted me drugged is I was ahead of the class and the teacher didn't want to deal with me. I went on to private schools, eventually (thankfully) flunking out due to disinterest in 11th grade. That is when I discovered A&P school where I set the record for the highest score in the program. By 19 I was an aircraft owner, and by 22 I was the director of maintenance for a 145 repair station serving a 141 flight school and 135 charter op.

I really owe my parents a lot for not caving in. The school owes a lot to my mom as she is the one who talked my dad out of the lawsuit for practicing medicine without a license:rofl:
 
I really owe my parents a lot for not caving in. The school owes a lot to my mom as she is the one who talked my dad out of the lawsuit for practicing medicine without a license:rofl:

I like your dad's idea. Why do moms take away all the fun? :D
 
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