Mandatory departure procedures...opinions please

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pstan

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Stan
91.129 Operations in Class D airspace

(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA.


1. Can I assume this does not apply to the IFR departure procedure?


2. Exactly what constitues an "FAA" "departure procedure", versus a non FAA departure procedure.


3. Where does one find them?
 
pstan said:
91.129 Operations in Class D airspace

(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA.


1. Can I assume this does not apply to the IFR departure procedure?
Click to expand...

Why would you think it wouldn't apply?
 
Rotor&Wing

1. I may be VFR, and have no idea what the ifr departure procedure is.

2. Are you implying the ifr departure procedure is mandatory for an ifr flight?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pstan

2. Are you implying the ifr departure procedure is mandatory for an ifr flight?

"Unless ATC gives an alternative clearance, yes."

Can you elaborate a bit please, maybe give an example?
 
pstan said:
91.129 Operations in Class D airspace

(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA.


1. Can I assume this does not apply to the IFR departure procedure?
Click to expand...

If it's not been assigned by ATC, yes.

3. Where does one find them?
Click to expand...

Try Part 93.
 
And if you don't follow them, you could be in for a very bad day. They are usually there for a good reason. Could be noise, obstacle, or other airspace issues. Regardless of the reason, it's usually a good idea to find and follow them.
 
Under IFR, if there's an ODP published for the departure runway, Part 91 F/K and 121/135 operators are required to follow it whether ATC tells you to or not. See 14 CFR 91.175(f):
(3) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(4) of this section, no pilot may takeoff under IFR from a civil airport having published obstacle departure procedures (ODPs) under part 97 of this chapter for the takeoff runway to be used, unless the pilot uses such ODPs.
(4) Notwithstanding the requirements of paragraph (f)(3) of this section, no pilot may takeoff from an airport under IFR unless:
(i) For part 121 and part 135 operators, the pilot uses a takeoff obstacle clearance or avoidance procedure that ensures compliance with the applicable airplane performance operating limitations requirements under part 121, subpart I or part 135, subpart I for takeoff at that airport; or
(ii) For part 129 operators, the pilot uses a takeoff obstacle clearance or avoidance procedure that ensures compliance with the airplane performance operating limitations prescribed by the State of the operator for takeoff at that airport.
Click to expand...
...but "ordinary" Part 91 operators are free to "roll their own," although there are added risks if you don't do this real carefully (a good reason to carry a sectional even if you're only flying IFR).

However, you are not required to follow a SID unless it was included in your clearance. And if there's no ODP for the departure runway, "ordinary" Part 91 operators are free to come up with their own way to get from the runway to the MEA -- and entirely responsible themselves for the consequences.

OTOH, under VFR, DP's (like SID's and ODP's) are not mandatory for "ordinary" Part 91 opeations unless assigned by ATC. However, as it says in AIM Section 5-2-8...
Pilots operating under 14 CFR Part 91 are strongly encouraged to file and fly a DP at night, during marginal Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) and Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC), when one is available.
Click to expand...
"Strongly encouraged," not "required," except as stated in the quoted regs.

What's "required" by 91.129(g)(1) is any FAA-published procedure requiring all aircraft to follow some route regardless of VFR or IFR, such as a published noise abatement procedure or the like.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Under IFR, if there's an ODP published for the departure runway, you are required to follow it whether ATC tells you to or not. See 14 CFR 91.175(f)...
Click to expand...

Note however, the first sentence of 91.175(f):
(f) Civil airport takeoff minimums. This paragraph applies to persons operating an aircraft under part 121, 125, 129, or 135 of this chapter.
​
 
Ron Levy said:
Under IFR, if there's an ODP published for the departure runway, you are required to follow it whether ATC tells you to or not. See 14 CFR 91.175(f):
Click to expand...

14 CFR 91.175(f) applies only to operations under Parts 121, 125, 129, or 135.
 
That's what I thought, but missed in the reg. Part 91 (other than K/F) can "roll their own." But as I said, 91.129(g)(1) is a different issue.
 
1. Can I assume this does not apply to the IFR departure procedure?


2. Exactly what constitues an "FAA" "departure procedure", versus a non FAA departure procedure.


3. Where does one find them?
Click to expand...

Considering Part 91, ifr or vfr, no specific instructions from the tower and no assigned SID (if IFR), the answers to my questions in post 1 are:

1. Yes, the the obstacle ifr departure procedure is not mandatory, 129 g 1 is not referrring to this. Note the language "established....by the FAA", and not "assigned by ATC".

2. FAA departure procedure "established" by them refers to noise abatement procedures, not SIDS, not obstacle dept procs. Of course, if you're assigned a SID and accept it, it's mandatory, same as instructions in the atc cleareance and tower, both of which are not part of this question.

3. NOAA charts or jepps list them all (?) Further, those little yellow signs near the threshhold saying "fly Vyse to xxxxx feet" or similar wording are also "established...by the FAA", and so must be followed. Part 93 (Steven), my limited internet savy could find nothing to add.

Thanks to Ron for delving further into the FAR's

That's a wrap???
 
Ron Levy said:
That's what I thought, but missed in the reg. Part 91 (other than K/F) can "roll their own." But as I said, 91.129(g)(1) is a different issue.
Click to expand...
Probably ought to edit Post 9 Ron. Someone might read it, go no further and think it was correct.
 
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