Making and Offer on An Aircraft

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Colombianjoe

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I have been looking for my first aircraft. Looked at many posts and ads. I have finally narrowed down to three aircraft, after looking at their logs, history, etc.

Are there any suggestions about what to include it my first offer? I have narrowed down the price I want to propose, but I am looking for other terms such as the extent of the pre-buy, test flight, etc., that should be included to address possible contingencies during the process.

One issue that has been nagging me is what if the pre-buy does not show many issues, but I do a test flight and the aircraft just doesn't feel right for whatever reason. Can the offer be rescinded then?

Thank you in advance.
 
Keep it simple and put your proposed terms, whatever they may be, in the offer. It would not be unusual to request a demo flight prior to paying for a pre-buy inspection.

In my purchase offer I included that the inspection would be by a currently certified A&P and that I would pay for it. I verbally informed the seller that the pre-buy would be an annual inspection which caused some grumbling but I was buying sight unseen. The seller had the right to repair unairworthy items in order to complete the sale. If you want a termination clause for no reason at all then put that in the offer. If a buyer wanted a no-cause termination clause as a seller I'd probably require a substantial deposit to demonstrate intent to purchase.
 
Clark1961 said:
Keep it simple and put your proposed terms, whatever they may be, in the offer. It would not be unusual to request a demo flight prior to paying for a pre-buy inspection.

In my purchase offer I included that the inspection would be by a currently certified A&P and that I would pay for it. I verbally informed the seller that the pre-buy would be an annual inspection which caused some grumbling but I was buying sight unseen. The seller had the right to repair unairworthy items in order to complete the sale. If you want a termination clause for no reason at all then put that in the offer. If a buyer wanted a no-cause termination clause as a seller I'd probably require a substantial deposit to demonstrate intent to purchase.
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Would that substantial deposit be "non-refundable"?
 
Colombianjoe said:
Would that substantial deposit be "non-refundable"?
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Usually not but it depends upon the agreed terms. It's just another business transaction so it can be structured just about any lawful way.
 
Go see the aircraft, test fly it with the owner, if you like it buy it. you know it will be a project anyway.
 
Download the AOPA purchase agreement for ideas on what you can negotiate for during the purchase.
 
Make the purchase subject to,financing,successful pre buy,and test flight. Be prepared to provide a deposit.
 
If possible arrange for a mechanic at your home field to do a pre buy inspection. I made an offer and deposit on my current plane after seeing it at the sellers airport and taking a test flight to ensure the panel worked. Deposit was made. Then I arranged to purchase the plane at the agreed price subject to inspection by my mechanic. The plane was flown to me, we had a long lunch and chat while my mechanic looked for typical showstoppers in the logs or in the plane. No issues were found, so the sale was completed and the plane was pretty much as advertised. Someone else's fresh annual may not be so exacting.
 
Colombianjoe said:
...what if the pre-buy does not show many issues, but I do a test flight and the aircraft just doesn't feel right for whatever reason. Can the offer be rescinded then?

Thank you in advance.
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If this is a concern just fly it before making an offer.
 
I've bought and sold many sub 70k dollar planes. Most of them bought and sold sight unseen and for cash or wire transfer. I have yet to make a bad deal and just sold one yesterday for 40k. The guy wired the money and we haven't done any paperwork yet. I'll hand him a bill of sale when he gets here and if he thinks the plane wasn't as advertised I'll hand his money back, simple. The guys that come with written prebuy contracts with a whole bunch of stipulations or a broker, I politely tell them airplane ownership isn't for them and walk away. If your doing all that crap for a plane under 100k it's just a waste of everybodys time. If you feel you need to do that it's not somebody you want to deal with anyway.
 
Colombianjoe said:
I have been looking for my first aircraft. Looked at many posts and ads. I have finally narrowed down to three aircraft, after looking at their logs, history, etc.

Are there any suggestions about what to include it my first offer? I have narrowed down the price I want to propose, but I am looking for other terms such as the extent of the pre-buy, test flight, etc., that should be included to address possible contingencies during the process.

One issue that has been nagging me is what if the pre-buy does not show many issues, but I do a test flight and the aircraft just doesn't feel right for whatever reason. Can the offer be rescinded then?

Thank you in advance.
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Not really a big deal.

Make a offer based on stated condition, if he agrees send him the AOPA sales offer, XYZ price presuming the plane is in XYZ condition, anything found on annual outside of said condition will ether be fixed by the seller, discounted off the price, or no more deal.
 
Go see the aircraft, review the log books to see if they are continuous. Check for any damage history, flight school or flying club activity. Aircraft that are owned by individuals typically have less hours and less abuse. Make a verbal offer based upon a flight test with the owner and contingent upon a pre-buy inspection. If the flight test goes well, then put down a deposit based upon your findings and completion of a pre-buy. Note that pre-buys inspections can be short ($500) or extensive (many $$) depending on what you feel is necessary. To me a low time airplane that is owner operated, well maintained, continuously used and stored in a hangar is worth much more than a training airplane, that was neglected and parked outside its whole life. Even though some buyers luck out and get great deals on nice planes, most buyers have to pay up for airplanes that need nothing and are ready for service. Since I am not an A&P, I would rather pay up for a ready to go airplane and fly it.
 
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Baron62 said:
Go see the aircraft, review the log books to see if they are continuous. Check for any damage history, flight school or flying club activity. Aircraft that are owned by individuals typically have less hours and less abuse. Make a verbal offer based upon a flight test with the owner and contingent upon a pre-buy inspection. If the flight test goes well, then put down a deposit based upon your findings and completion of a pre-buy. Note that pre-buys inspections can be short ($500) or extensive (many $$) depending on what you feel is necessary. To me a low time airplane that is owner operated, well maintained, continuously used and stored in a hangar is worth much more than a training airplane, that was neglected and parked outside its whole life. Even though some buyers luck out and get great deals on nice planes, most buyers have to pay up for airplanes that need nothing and are ready for service. Since I am not an A&P, I would rather pay up for a ready to go airplane and fly it.
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Why worry about the logs? they are just some ones creative writing, if you can read them.
 
Everything is relative. Flight school time might be bad if it's recent. My latest purchase spent a few years pulling flight school duty, but that was back in the 50's. Does it matter? I don't think so. I scrutinized the logbook from the rebuild in 2000 until present. Everything before that didn't really worry me.
 
Wade said:
The guys that come with written prebuy contracts with a whole bunch of stipulations or a broker, I politely tell them airplane ownership isn't for them and walk away. If your doing all that crap for a plane under 100k it's just a waste of everybodys time. If you feel you need to do that it's not somebody you want to deal with anyway.
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I (conditionally) disagree with this statement. Not everyone who is careful and professional about the buying and selling of aircraft is a person you don't want to deal with. I greatly appreciated the purchase agreement that the buyer of my plane offered, as well as his use of an aircraft escrow service. It protected both of us, and guaranteed that nothing would bite either of us in the butt later. The buyer was more than willing to negotiate a few of the items in the purchase agreement to make me happy, as I was to make him happy. I wish the guy I had originally bought the plane from had been as diligent.

As for the blanket statement that "airplane ownership isn't for them", well, as a buyer, that would signal that the seller was someone I didn't want to do business with.
 
There really isn't any standard for how to purchase aircraft. I've seen it done over the phone without any formal paperwork or meeting the person, I've seen very formal written agreements, and everything in between.

Generally I include that the offer is contingent upon prebuy and test flight at a shop of the buyer's choosing and test flight either done by the buyer or by a trusted other pilot. I've been contracted before to do test flights on potential candidates. Sometimes a prebuy is skipped altogether and just a test flight is done, and frankly I've seen very good results doing that generally.

Assuming you've talked to the sellers, it's worth talking to them in general terms about what you're thinking and that could save you some time. So for example, my general expectation is that a seller pay for airworthiness items found during a prebuy, and then the buyer pay for optional items or they get deferred. Sometimes a seller will say "Nope, plane is as-is, no prebuy allowed, or do one if you want but I won't pay for anything." Sellers will also sometimes not entertain an offer of anything less than asking price, etc. etc. So a few minutes on the phone can help eliminate a potential candidate quickly. Plus, a bad seller is going to be bad to deal with all around and might move a plane down on the priority list.
 
Rykymus said:
I (conditionally) disagree with this statement. Not everyone who is careful and professional about the buying and selling of aircraft is a person you don't want to deal with. I greatly appreciated the purchase agreement that the buyer of my plane offered, as well as his use of an aircraft escrow service. It protected both of us, and guaranteed that nothing would bite either of us in the butt later. The buyer was more than willing to negotiate a few of the items in the purchase agreement to make me happy, as I was to make him happy. I wish the guy I had originally bought the plane from had been as diligent.

As for the blanket statement that "airplane ownership isn't for them", well, as a buyer, that would signal that the seller was someone I didn't want to do business with.
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Maybe it is because of the six planes I've bought and sold (only 5 sold, as I still own the last one) not one has cost over $50,000, but I'm with @Wade on this one...which I guess would make me someone you wouldn't do business with...which up to this point would be fine, as I've never been desperate to sell. I suppose if I need to do a "fire sale", that might change my opinion...
 
I'm of the opinion that a simple, straight-forward purchase agreement is a good idea, especially if there is a deposit involved. What's wrong with putting the pertinent details in writing so that everyone is on the same page and there are no inconsistent assumptions? It can be done in a page or two, and really only needs (1) purchase price, (2) contingencies like pre-buy, test flight, etc., (3) amount of deposit and conditions for its return to the buyer; (4) how airworthiness items found during the pre-buy will be addressed; (5) ideally some reps and warranties about airworthiness; and (6) a description of all extraneous items that go with the airplane (logbooks, accessories, tow-bars, cabin covers, etc.). If a seller won't commit those basic details to writing, he's probably not someone you want to do business with.
 
bradg33 said:
I'm of the opinion that a simple, straight-forward purchase agreement is a good idea, especially if there is a deposit involved. What's wrong with putting the pertinent details in writing so that everyone is on the same page and there are no inconsistent assumptions? It can be done in a page or two, and really only needs (1) purchase price, (2) contingencies like pre-buy, test flight, etc., (3) amount of deposit and conditions for its return to the buyer; (4) how airworthiness items found during the pre-buy will be addressed; (5) ideally some reps and warranties about airworthiness; and (6) a description of all extraneous items that go with the airplane (logbooks, accessories, tow-bars, cabin covers, etc.). If a seller won't commit those basic details to writing, he's probably not someone you want to do business with.
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WHAT IF....
you know the buyer/seller, you know that they are honest as the day is long. plus the fact you know their aircraft. and it is perfect inside and out.
why not simply trade check for bill of sale? When the check clears, they send you a signed bill of sale. you go fly the aircraft home.
 
Tom-D said:
WHAT IF....
you know the buyer/seller, you know that they are honest as the day is long. plus the fact you know their aircraft. and it is perfect inside and out.
why not simply trade check for bill of sale? When the check clears, they send you a signed bill of sale. you go fly the aircraft home.
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There are exceptions to every rule. If I personally know the seller and the plane, that's a different ballgame than buying one from a stranger via Controller, etc.
 
bradg33 said:
There are exceptions to every rule. If I personally know the seller and the plane, that's a different ballgame than buying one from a stranger via Controller, etc.
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Would you buy any aircraft when you weren't certain of the sellers integrity.
 
Rykymus said:
I (conditionally) disagree with this statement. Not everyone who is careful and professional about the buying and selling of aircraft is a person you don't want to deal with. I greatly appreciated the purchase agreement that the buyer of my plane offered, as well as his use of an aircraft escrow service. It protected both of us, and guaranteed that nothing would bite either of us in the butt later. The buyer was more than willing to negotiate a few of the items in the purchase agreement to make me happy, as I was to make him happy. I wish the guy I had originally bought the plane from had been as diligent.

As for the blanket statement that "airplane ownership isn't for them", well, as a buyer, that would signal that the seller was someone I didn't want to do business with.
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Sounds like doing all that paperwork and negotiation worked for you. I simply buy good planes and sell them in better condition than I bought them at a fair price, full of gas, and a fresh oil change, Pretty simple really. I would never buy a plane that I felt I needed a contract to protect me from a seller. So I just skip that step.

One guy came to me with a 15 page prebuy and wanted to put a deposit down and have his mechanic come pick the plane apart and I explained I don't take deposits and the first guy with the cash gets it. So while he is jacking around another guy sends me the money and he gets mad because I didn't accommodate him lol.
 
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Tom-D said:
Would you buy any aircraft when you weren't certain of the sellers integrity.
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How can you be certain of anyone's integrity? Especially someone whom you have never met and is selling his aircraft? With this criteria you would only buy from close friends or associates that meet your standards of behavior. Many aircraft brokers would be out of the running immediately :).

Wade said:
Sounds like doing all that paperwork and negotiation worked for you. I simply buy good planes and sell them in better condition than I bought them at a fair price, full of gas, and a fresh oil change, Pretty simple really. I would never buy a plane that I felt I needed a contract to protect me from a seller. So I just skip that step.

One guy came to me with a 15 page prebuy and wanted to put a deposit down and have his mechanic come pick the plane apart and I explained I don't take deposits and the first guy with the cash gets it. So while he is jacking around another guy sends me the money and he gets mad because I didn't accommodate him lol.
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I have bought and sold several aircraft over the years and most of the time have used written agreements. To be honest, for the ones I have sold, the @Wade "first guy with cash" approach would have been a lot better for me a few times. But the reality is that when buying/selling a mobile piece of equipment in the $25k-$125k range, most people, including me, want something in writing, in case the person on the other side of the deal is way dishonest. I'm not an A&P. I know a couple of types of aircraft well enough to be confident in my ability to pick out a "bad" one, but in all other types I will need an A&P familiar with the type to advise me. I agree with @brad33, straightforward agreement to protect both parties. To the OP, good luck.
 
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