Maintenance for percent of Sale

AKBill

AKBill

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AKBill
A neighbor who was injured in a construction accident 2 years ago and is paralyzed from the waist down is asking for help.

He would like me to get his plane ready for sale, but has asked I take a percent of the sale as payment.

I'm an A&P, who is not currently working as an A&P. I maintain my own plane. I have worked for several FBO's over the years maintaining everything from C-150's to deHavallind DHC-3 turbine Otters on floats. I have 15 years active/reserve in USN working on T-2's, A-4's and P-3 Orion's. Currently I work underground maintaining mining equipment.

My ability to do get his plane ready for sale is not a problem. I have never taken a percent of a sale price of an airplane for payment for services rendered.

I may have to go as far as change cylinders in order to get ready to fly again. Definitely need to change out the battery.

Comments please
 
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7% is the standard broker fee for GA aircraft in my area.

Unless you are insured and in compliance, DO NOT PERFORM ANY MAINTENANCE YOURSELF. You are putting your head on the chopping block if you do, so send it to a shop. There's also the question of maintaining your A&P currency :).

Other than that, just have an annual performed on it. That's the standard that people expect. If there's any problems with the aircraft, it's on the shop.
 
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In this situation (severe recent disability) it would be tempting to me, to do the labor free.
Also, would it reduce your liability, by not taking payment? Dunno.
 
Really... honestly if you're that scared of being sued you probably shouldnt leave your house.

Fix your friends plane, charge whatever you think is fair, move on.





*autocorrect gets me again
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
In this situation (severe recent disability) it would be tempting to me, to do the labor free.
Also, would it reduce your liability, by not taking payment? Dunno.
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Already have 15+ hours helping him out,have not asked for a dime.
I can see another 60hrs on what needs to be done. Leland, wants to pay me for my time. I need to figure the best way to give him a deal. He told me no more free work Bill.

James331 said:
Really... honestly if you're that scared of being used you probably should leave your house.

Fix your friends plane, charge whatever you think is fair, move on.[/QUOTE]

My not have sounded like it when you first read the post; but that's what I'm trying to do (fix my neighbors plane). What do you do when the man will not take your help for free, even if you know he needs if?
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Unless you are insured, do NOT do maintenance on an aircraft. PERIOD. FREE OR NOT. Charging for service has absolutely nothing to do with liability; it's a myth. This falls under the legal theory of Strict Liability.

I strongly advise anyone that wants to listen to James331 ask him if he's willing to sign a document to cover you if you get sued. It's not his head on the line. Normally I agree with the sentiment, but not when it comes to aircraft maintenance.

Aviation is STUPIDLY litigious right now. I have FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with this. Lawsuits have come back after many years and bitten people right in the ass.
 
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Anticept said:
Unless you are insured, do NOT do maintenance on an aircraft. PERIOD. FREE OR NOT. Charging for service has absolutely nothing to do with liability; it's a myth. This falls under the legal theory of Strict Liability.

I strongly advise that wants to listen to James331 ask him if he's willing to sign a document to cover you to back up his statement, and put the funds in a trust. It's not his head on the line.

Aviation is STUPIDLY litigious right now. I have FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with this.
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Thanks, got your point. Maybe I could do the work for him and have an IA come in and inspect the work and sign off on it?
 
AKBill said:
Thanks, got your point. Maybe I could do the work for him and have an IA come in and inspect the work and sign off on it?
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I'm tied up right now over a twin. Basically, I went with two friends to go look at an airplane they were going to buy. I found numerous problems, but nothing major. I was not able to do a complete look over, and I told them this is NOT a prebuy PERIOD, I just want to make sure they don't get screwed. I didn't charge a single dime. I only had about 3 hours to poke around, and it's on an aircraft that I don't know (which I told them). Really, we just wanted to see the plane first hand, and it seemed like a great reason to go fly.

I told them to hire someone to do an actual prebuy or annual. The guy they hired was the guy who pulled the plane into his shop so we could look it over, and he was to do the annual after I left. He signed it off as an annual, plane came down, and there were some problems that occurred in flight, including a leaking zerk fitting on the left prop. I said they better take it to a shop (I am only insured to work on club planes), which they did, and 70,000 worth of problems were found (all in the areas that I was not able to inspect as the aircraft was not completely opened by the time I left). Damage was found to the right side in the gearwell because apparently IA was working on the strut fixing a couple of seals that I pointed out, and either didn't assemble it or put in way too much pressure, and the strut blew apart. Plus, it appeared that the inspection panels in the floor were not opened for years; the pulleys were bone dry, a previous repair was done very unsafely, and a very old bucking bar was found too (probably for that crappy repair). The airplane was purchased at 50,000. Lawyers got involved.

Well, I've been dragged into it. The IA is claiming that "They brought a guy with him to do a prebuy", when I told them all to make sure they do a proper inspection, I'm just helping. He claims he just stood back, and I did the gear swing inspections, engine stuff, prop inspections, etc.

The thing is, I am not an IA. Nor can he sign off an annual that way, the regulations specifically say he must be the one to do all of the steps of the inspection (14 CFR Part 43 App D states, many times, the language requiring this). Doesn't matter if I have a strong defense, I'm still going to have to pay to defend myself, completely uninsured, at several hundred dollars an hour, and it's going to ****ing suck, because tort law doesn't give 2 cares about what the FAA regulations say.

If you are already involved in your friend's plane, I hope that you never have to face the crap I have already had to face. I wish that being a good samaritan would lend me some sort of legal protections, but not as long as strict liability is a thing.
 
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AKBill said:
Already have 15+ hours helping him out,have not asked for a dime.
I can see another 60hrs on what needs to be done. Leland, wants to pay me for my time. I need to figure the best way to give him a deal. He told me no more free work Bill.

James331 said:
Really... honestly if you're that scared of being used you probably should leave your house.

Fix your friends plane, charge whatever you think is fair, move on.
Click to expand...

My not have sounded like it when you first read the post; but that's what I'm trying to do (fix my neighbors plane). What do you do when the man will not take your help for free, even if you know he needs if?
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Just keep track of the expenses and take it out of the sale price, and bill the labor at whatever you work out between you.
 
Anticept said:
I'm tied up right now over a twin. Basically, I went with two friends to go look at an airplane they were going to buy. I found numerous problems, but nothing major. I was not able to do a complete look over, and I told them this is NOT a prebuy PERIOD, I just want to make sure they don't get screwed. I didn't charge a single dime. I only had about 3 hours to poke around, and it's on an aircraft that I don't know (which I told them). Really, we just wanted to see the plane first hand, and it seemed like a great reason to go fly.

I told them to hire someone to do an actual prebuy or annual. The guy they hired was the guy who pulled the plane into his shop so we could look it over, and he was to do the annual after I left. He signed it off as an annual, plane came down, and there were some problems that occurred in flight, including a leaking zerk fitting on the left prop. I said they better take it to a shop (I am only insured to work on club planes), which they did, and 70,000 worth of problems was found (all in the areas that I was not able to inspect as the aircraft was not completely opened by the time I left). Damage was found to the right side in the gear well because apparently IA was working on the strut fixing a couple of seals that I pointed out, put in way too much pressure, and the strut blew apart. Plus, it appeared that the inspection panels in the floor were not opened for years; the pulleys were bone dry, a previous repair was done very unsafely, and a very old bucking bar was found too (probably for that crappy repair). The airplane was purchased at 50,000. Lawyers got involved.

Well, I've been dragged into it. The IA is claiming that "They brought a guy with him to do a prebuy", when I told them all to make sure they do a proper inspection, I'm just helping. He claims he just stood back, and I did the gear swing inspections, engine stuff, prop inspections, etc.

The thing is, I am not an IA. Nor can he sign off an annual that way, the regulations specifically say he must be the one to do the inspection. Doesn't matter though, I'm still going to have to pay to defend myself, completely uninsured, and it's going to ****ing suck, because tort law doesn't give 2 cares about what the FAA regulations say.
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All I can say is that's bull****. Honest folks don't do what you described. Maybe go to AOPA and ask for legal a stance?? You need to fight this!!!!
 
AKBill said:
All I can say is that's bull****. Honest folks don't do what you described. Maybe go to AOPA and ask for legal a stance?? You need to fight this!!!!
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I have a good professional friend who is an aviation lawyer. We meet for drinks once in a while and shoot the ****. He's helped me out before. He's giving me a discounted rate and allowing me to be on a payment plan (believe me, he's very good at what he does, so a discount from him is a big deal), but he did give me a tongue lashing saying he didn't spend all that time with free consultation making sure I don't get in trouble, for me to go get myself involved in messes like this.
 
Anticept said:
I have a good professional friend who is an aviation lawyer. We meet for drinks once in a while and shoot the ****. He's helped me out before. He's giving me a discounted rate and allowing me to be on a payment plan (believe me, he's very good at what he does, so a discount from him is a big deal), but he did give me a tongue lashing saying he didn't spend all that time with free consultation making sure I don't get in trouble, for me to go get myself involved in messes like this.
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I am beside myself, how folks seem to think they can beat the system, and don't care who they hurt doing it...
icon13.gif
 
Hey, what you can do is become part owner of the aircraft in exchange for maintenance, and become a named insured on the policy. Nearly all policies cover maintenance done on an aircraft if they are certified, and even after the insurance is canceled, the coverage afforded by the policy goes on till the end of time for the work you did while under the insurance umbrella. That is why I am not worried about working on our club aircraft, because I am working as an employee of our club, and thus are covered as a named insured. I confirmed this with my lawyer. Obviously your mileage may vary, so make sure you thoroughly understand your policy and possibly look it over with a lawyer.
 
Anticept said:
Hey, what you can do is become part owner of the aircraft in exchange for maintenance, and become a named insured on the policy. Nearly all policies cover maintenance done on an aircraft if they are certified, and even after the insurance is canceled, the coverage afforded by the policy goes on till the end of time for the work you did while under the insurance umbrella. That is why I am not worried about working on our club aircraft, because I am working as an employee of our club, and thus are covered as a named insured. I confirmed this with my lawyer. Obviously your mileage may vary, so make sure you thoroughly understand your policy and possibly look it over with a lawyer.
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In all my years I've worked for a lot of people, and never gotten into shi- like that.
 
AKBill said:
Thanks, got your point. Maybe I could do the work for him and have an IA come in and inspect the work and sign off on it?
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Just buy the aircraft. take you friend flying.
 
Tom-D said:
In all my years I've worked for a lot of people, and never gotten into shi- like that.
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I imagine you have insurance coverage though (said you worked for people). Or just really good and lucky that no one tried to pin some BS on you :p

But it is a valid option.
 
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Tom-D said:
Just buy the aircraft. take you friend flying.
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It's a nice old Piper Stinson, 1949, six cylinder Continental O-470, constant speed prop. Bet it climbs great..

If anyone is interested please contact me.

Pocket book says can't but it. Would love to fly it...:yes:
 
AKBill said:
It's a nice old Piper Stinson, 1949, six cylinder Continental O-470, constant speed prop. Bet it climbs great..

If anyone is interested please contact me.

Pocket book says can't but it. Would love to fly it...:yes:
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Price, as is where is?
 
AKBill said:
It's a nice old Piper Stinson, 1949, six cylinder Continental O-470, constant speed prop. Bet it climbs great..

If anyone is interested please contact me.

Pocket book says can't but it. Would love to fly it...:yes:
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How much? Which model is that in 49? Can it go on floats? With the 470 "climbs great" is an understatement.
 
Henning said:
How much? Which model is that in 49? Can it go on floats? With the 470 "climbs great" is an understatement.
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49's were -3 big tail. it can go floats, with the 0-470- they will climb great but the useful load is restricted, the extra weight of the engine is taken right out of the baggage compartment, which wasn't much to start with.
They work a lot better with the PZL Franklin 220 horse, it is lighter, and with only a 10 horse difference.

they will land at half the distance with the lighter engine. than the heavy 0-470. Maintenance and parts advantage the 0-470
 
AKBill said:
It's a nice old Piper Stinson, 1949, six cylinder Continental O-470, constant speed prop. Bet it climbs great..

If anyone is interested please contact me.

Pocket book says can't but it. Would love to fly it...:yes:
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A 49 108-3 but, is it a voyager or a station wagon?
If it has the 0-470 Is it typed under the 108-5 certificate as per Univair instructions?


Put it on E-Bay, with a decent buy it now price. (As is where is) see if it ain't gone in a week.
 
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Read the type certificate for the 108- if the 108 has the 0-470 it is a dash -5, since Univair bought the type certificate they have added the PZL franklin (220) and the 0-470- (230) to the type certificate. There are a goodly number of them out there with the TSIO-360-K in them too. That in my humble opinion is the best of the bunch.

It is the lightest of all the engines and still gets out 220 horses.
 
Tom-D said:
Read the type certificate for the 108- if the 108 has the 0-470 it is a dash -5, since Univair bought the type certificate they have added the PZL franklin (220) and the 0-470- (230) to the type certificate. There are a goodly number of them out there with the TSIO-360-K in them too. That in my humble opinion is the best of the bunch.

It is the lightest of all the engines and still gets out 220 horses.
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...so you're saying a 108-3 turns into a 108-"5" if I put a 470 into it?
 
James331 said:
...so you're saying a 108-3 turns into a 108-"5" if I put a 470 into it?
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Pretty much, but it would depend upon when the paper was done, Univair or prior Field approval.
 
Tom-D said:
Pretty much, but it would depend upon when the paper was done, Univair or prior Field approval.
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And considering they only built ONE -5, and it was powered by a frank, I highly doubt it would ever be considered a -5.


One of these days we need to have a Stinson talk Tom :D
 
James331 said:
And considering they only built ONE -5, and it was powered by a frank, I highly doubt it would ever be considered a -5.


One of these days we need to have a Stinson talk Tom :D
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Are you saying there is only one 108- that has a 0-470 in it?
 
Tom-D said:
Are you saying there is only one 108- that has a 0-470 in it?
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I'm saying univiar only made one 108-5 and it had a frank in it.
 
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Tom-D said:
Read the type certificate for the 108- if the 108 has the 0-470 it is a dash -5, since Univair bought the type certificate they have added the PZL franklin (220) and the 0-470- (230) to the type certificate. There are a goodly number of them out there with the TSIO-360-K in them too. That in my humble opinion is the best of the bunch.

It is the lightest of all the engines and still gets out 220 horses.
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Nope, I have zero pictures left from before the digital age except the ones I gave my mom.
 
AKBill said:
Already have 15+ hours helping him out,have not asked for a dime.
I can see another 60hrs on what needs to be done. Leland, wants to pay me for my time. I need to figure the best way to give him a deal. He told me no more free work Bill.

James331 said:
Really... honestly if you're that scared of being used you probably should leave your house.

Fix your friends plane, charge whatever you think is fair, move on.[/QUOTE]

My not have sounded like it when you first read the post; but that's what I'm trying to do (fix my neighbors plane). What do you do when the man will not take your help for free, even if you know he needs if?
Click to expand...

Accept his payment. He seems to be a man who takes pride in carrying his own weight and not relying on the charity of others. Put the money aside to be available when and if he really needs it.
Click to expand...
 
Anticept said:
I'm tied up right now over a twin. Basically, I went with two friends to go look at an airplane they were going to buy. I found numerous problems, but nothing major. I was not able to do a complete look over, and I told them this is NOT a prebuy PERIOD, I just want to make sure they don't get screwed. I didn't charge a single dime. I only had about 3 hours to poke around, and it's on an aircraft that I don't know (which I told them). Really, we just wanted to see the plane first hand, and it seemed like a great reason to go fly.

I told them to hire someone to do an actual prebuy or annual. The guy they hired was the guy who pulled the plane into his shop so we could look it over, and he was to do the annual after I left. He signed it off as an annual, plane came down, and there were some problems that occurred in flight, including a leaking zerk fitting on the left prop. I said they better take it to a shop (I am only insured to work on club planes), which they did, and 70,000 worth of problems were found (all in the areas that I was not able to inspect as the aircraft was not completely opened by the time I left). Damage was found to the right side in the gearwell because apparently IA was working on the strut fixing a couple of seals that I pointed out, and either didn't assemble it or put in way too much pressure, and the strut blew apart. Plus, it appeared that the inspection panels in the floor were not opened for years; the pulleys were bone dry, a previous repair was done very unsafely, and a very old bucking bar was found too (probably for that crappy repair). The airplane was purchased at 50,000. Lawyers got involved.

Well, I've been dragged into it. The IA is claiming that "They brought a guy with him to do a prebuy", when I told them all to make sure they do a proper inspection, I'm just helping. He claims he just stood back, and I did the gear swing inspections, engine stuff, prop inspections, etc.

The thing is, I am not an IA. Nor can he sign off an annual that way, the regulations specifically say he must be the one to do all of the steps of the inspection (14 CFR Part 43 App D states, many times, the language requiring this). Doesn't matter if I have a strong defense, I'm still going to have to pay to defend myself, completely uninsured, at several hundred dollars an hour, and it's going to ****ing suck, because tort law doesn't give 2 cares about what the FAA regulations say.

If you are already involved in your friend's plane, I hope that you never have to face the crap I have already had to face. I wish that being a good samaritan would lend me some sort of legal protections, but not as long as strict liability is a thing.
Click to expand...

Sounds like some great friends you have, there.
 
James331 said:
I'm saying univiar only made one 108-5 and it had a frank in it.
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Is Univair the only one who can make a dash 5?

seems to me that if the type certificate has the 0-470 as an alternate engine any one can.
 
Anticept said:
Hey, what you can do is become part owner of the aircraft in exchange for maintenance, and become a named insured on the policy. Nearly all policies cover maintenance done on an aircraft if they are certified, and even after the insurance is canceled, the coverage afforded by the policy goes on till the end of time for the work you did while under the insurance umbrella. That is why I am not worried about working on our club aircraft, because I am working as an employee of our club, and thus are covered as a named insured. I confirmed this with my lawyer. Obviously your mileage may vary, so make sure you thoroughly understand your policy and possibly look it over with a lawyer.
Click to expand...

Being a co-owner and a named insured on the policy would provide the OP some protection while he and his friend own the plane, but what about afterwards? The insurance policy and ownership status will be gone, somebody else will own the plane and have the capacity to sue previous mechanics.

It seems to me that this could apply also to you, when your club sells one of its planes, which it surely will do eventually.
 
NoHeat said:
It seems to me that this could apply also to you, when your club sells one of its planes, which it surely will do eventually.
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15-20 other mechanics had their fingers on it too, too difficult to prover who screwed what.

The only time I've heard of any A&P being sued for what they did was when the engine failed on the test cell due to having the wrong bearing set installed and the A&P had ordered the wrong set, installed it and ruined the engine, and would not stand behind their work.

Yeah, there is probably hundreds of others, but in my little world :)
 
EdFred said:
Sounds like some great friends you have, there.
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The friends are not suing me. They don't want me involved, but the guys they are suing will.

NoHeat said:
Being a co-owner and a named insured on the policy would provide the OP some protection while he and his friend own the plane, but what about afterwards? The insurance policy and ownership status will be gone, somebody else will own the plane and have the capacity to sue previous mechanics.

It seems to me that this could apply also to you, when your club sells one of its planes, which it surely will do eventually.
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You are always covered for occurrences linked to a time during the policy period. For example, if you just switched insurance companies but found hail damage from a thunderstorm that happened a few days before, then you don't file the claim with the new insurer, you file it with the old one. Even though the policy ended, coverage between the start and end date does not.

The same goes for maintenance. If I am insured, and 10 years later someone has an engine failure and points the finger at me, even though I haven't picked up a wrench in 5 years, I'm still covered if they try to claim it was because of something I did those 10 years prior. Keyword: "claim". In this case it would be next to impossible to pin it on me.

Tom-D said:
15-20 other mechanics had their fingers on it too, too difficult to prover who screwed what.

The only time I've heard of any A&P being sued for what they did was when the engine failed on the test cell due to having the wrong bearing set installed and the A&P had ordered the wrong set, installed it and ruined the engine, and would not stand behind their work.

Yeah, there is probably hundreds of others, but in my little world :)
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It's unlikely to be sued by someone to be quite honest, but when it happens and they have any semblance of a case, you better not have assets. If I didn't have assets, I wouldn't care. But I have one little plane that is very very sentimental to me :p.

It's some real BS how liability works. REAL BS. As another example, in 2000, we had a club member who joined, got checked out, and took a plane up to Wisconsin or Minnesota (I don't have the file with me) for a meeting. Anyways, there was heavy weather on the way back, and he was not instrument rated. He and his 3 passengers were killed after flying into an embedded thunderstorm that took the wings off. The family sued everyone they could name, and our insurance decided to just settle for the entire policy payout.
 
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