Lycoming operators required reading

Might be useful information but the website is a definite candidate for www.websitesthatsuck.com and difficult/intolerable to read. If dates were included it might offer a bit more credibility.
 
murphey said:
Might be useful information but the website is a definite candidate for www.websitesthatsuck.com and difficult/intolerable to read. If dates were included it might offer a bit more credibility.
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Don't shoot the messenger until you understand the message.

what ever it takes, read and understand it, Lycoming has for years denied they have a problem, these guys are advocating what I've been saying for years.

the lycoming simply doesn't have enough oil to the rocker box.
 
Tom-D said:
Don't shoot the messenger until you understand the message.

what ever it takes, read and understand it, Lycoming has for years denied they have a problem, these guys are advocating what I've been saying for years.

the lycoming simply doesn't have enough oil to the rocker box.
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Again, what's the date on the discussion?

And I'd like to understand the message but it's so d*mn difficult to read!
 
murphey said:
Again, what's the date on the discussion?

It doesn't matter it has been an ongoing problem for many years.

And I'd like to understand the message but it's so d*mn difficult to read!
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you can do it, read and understand why we have valve sticking problems, in Lycoming and continentals.

I'm not going to spoon feed ya. because the info is there.
 
Tom-D said:
...the info is there.
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Reminds me of...

"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."
"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."
"But the plans were on display ..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a flashlight."
"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."
 
The information on the 'NEW' writeup is dated 1998....new is now 13 years old???

Isn't it SOP to know that the Lycs have had valve lubrication issues for 1 and 3 and you need to deal with sticking valves and keeping a close eye on them and the valve guides???
 
The two Bills put that together quite a while back (and neither is a web site wizard), but it's still accurate and useful. Add SB 388C to the mix, and you've got the lot.
 
OK, I slogged through it. Seems like it could have been condensed down to like 2 pages to cover the major findings. It reads more like a running blog of their research, than a summary report (which would have been more fun to read).

Literary cricism aside, how does this impact my engine management? I understand the problem, but there were no recommendations (that I noticed) for the pilot/owner. Is the intent to get Lycoming to admit to the problem? I'm just not sure what to do with my new knowledge, other than worry.
 
COFlyBoy said:
OK, I slogged through it. Seems like it could have been condensed down to like 2 pages to cover the major findings. It reads more like a running blog of their research, than a summary report
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Knowing the two people involved, that's probably an accurate assessment.

Literary cricism aside, how does this impact my engine management? I understand the problem, but there were no recommendations (that I noticed) for the pilot/owner. Is the intent to get Lycoming to admit to the problem? I'm just not sure what to do with my new knowledge, other than worry.
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For those recommendations, see the Lycoming Key Reprints (Operations) and Lycoming SL's 185, 192, and 197.
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/index.html
 
COFlyBoy said:
how does this impact my engine management? I understand the problem, but there were no recommendations (that I noticed) for the pilot/owner. Is the intent to get Lycoming to admit to the problem? I'm just not sure what to do with my new knowledge, other than worry.
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Knowing the exhaust valves are running too hot, what can you do. ?

allow your engine to run at minimum oil levels? AS many say is OK.
set at the hold short line for long periods ? and cook the rear two cylinders?
Does running in the red box make more sense now?
does running high cylinder head temps make sense?

some days I'm a bit sarcastic, but Lycomig has had nearly 50 years to figure this out. and redesign the valve train in their engines, and has done nothing to cure the problem.
They have the proven design in their own engines yet do nothing to cure it in the other engines that suffer these symptoms.

What can you do with your new info? any thing you can think of to keep the exhaust valve cool.
 
In 1999 Lycoming changed their valve guide material to a high-chrome-content bronze. Since then the guide wear issue has been no issue for us. We never, ever, have valve problems with the bunch of Lycs we operate anymore. No sticking, no wear, all the way to TBO with compressions still in the high '70s. Using Aeroshell 15W50.

Short or infrequent flights do much more damage to any engine, and valve trouble can be expected there.

The biggest hassle we have with the Lyc is the O-235: it runs too cool and condensation causes cylinder pitting, and the rings then wear the cylinder surface faster. The front of the front cylinders are the worst and the wear causes a ridge there that starts to shave aluminum off the pin plugs. Lyc could fix it with a compression ring below the pin to move the ridge down. Even with the oil cooler completely closed off that engine still has low oil temperature. The engine reaches its 2400-hour TBO easily but the cylinders usually need cleaning up halfway there. The valves? Never.

Dan
 
Tom-D said:
Knowing the exhaust valves are running too hot, what can you do. ?

allow your engine to run at minimum oil levels? AS many say is OK.
set at the hold short line for long periods ? and cook the rear two cylinders?
Does running in the red box make more sense now?
does running high cylinder head temps make sense?

some days I'm a bit sarcastic, but Lycomig has had nearly 50 years to figure this out. and redesign the valve train in their engines, and has done nothing to cure the problem.
They have the proven design in their own engines yet do nothing to cure it in the other engines that suffer these symptoms.

What can you do with your new info? any thing you can think of to keep the exhaust valve cool.
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Well, I was asking you. There is absolutely nothing in the Cherokee 6 POH about how to keep an exhaust valve cool. Please enlighten me.
 
COFlyBoy said:
Well, I was asking you. There is absolutely nothing in the Cherokee 6 POH about how to keep an exhaust valve cool. Please enlighten me.
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Redesign of the cylinder oil and cooling system is the answer. I am wondering why Lycoming has not been burned over this issue, like Cessna was over the seat track issue.
 
murphey said:
my my my....someone's really annoyed with Lycoming...
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I have been for a long time, that is why I do not overhaul them, The last wrench to touch one, gets blamed for the next failure.and that is all too soon in most cases.
 
Ron Levy said:
Knowing the two people involved, that's probably an accurate assessment.

For those recommendations, see the Lycoming Key Reprints (Operations) and Lycoming SL's 185, 192, and 197.
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/index.html
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I found SL185, but not 192 or 197. Even a search of the Lycoming website didn't turn them up.

185 deals with using leaded fuels in engines designed for the 80/87 fuel. Not an issue for me since mine was designed for 100/100LL.

I still would like to know what I should do to operate my engine so that inadequate exhaust valve lubrication/cooling will not cause problems. For now it looks like I just hope someone comes out with an affordable STC to correct the issue.
 
COFlyBoy said:
I found SL185, but not 192 or 197. Even a search of the Lycoming website didn't turn them up.

185 deals with using leaded fuels in engines designed for the 80/87 fuel. Not an issue for me since mine was designed for 100/100LL.

I still would like to know what I should do to operate my engine so that inadequate exhaust valve lubrication/cooling will not cause problems. For now it looks like I just hope someone comes out with an affordable STC to correct the issue.
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This thread wasn't started to alter how you fly, it was started because I thought you'd like to know what causes this problem.
 
COFlyBoy said:
I still would like to know what I should do to operate my engine so that inadequate exhaust valve lubrication/cooling will not cause problems.
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You and every other Lycoming operator out there
 
COFlyBoy said:
I still would like to know what I should do to operate my engine so that inadequate exhaust valve lubrication/cooling will not cause problems. For now it looks like I just hope someone comes out with an affordable STC to correct the issue.
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Tom-D said:
You and every other Lycoming operator out there
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I haven't. With about 1800 hours of Lycoming engines running at my command in airplanes (figure around 10,000 hours of cylinder time), I've never had a stuck valve.

I also haven't wondered about having bad compression on Continental cylinders - the 310 has great compression.
 
Tom-D said:
This thread wasn't started to alter how you fly, it was started because I thought you'd like to know what causes this problem.
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It's a problem that in owning and flying Lycomings for over 2000 hours I've never seen. *shrug*

I beat the livin' crap outta my AEIO-540. It's all short flights up into an aerobatic box where I'm full power and low airspeeds and chopped to idle at high speeds; repeat over and over. These engines go often to well over 1200 hours and many to TBO.
 
One anecdotal data point - the only stuck valve I've experienced was on a Continental O-200. But I think that was related to use of 100LL, not an inherent design issue.
 
COFlyBoy said:
I found SL185, but not 192 or 197. Even a search of the Lycoming website didn't turn them up.
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They used to be on the internet, but apparently are not any more. If you contact Lycoming, they'll send them to you free as long as you have the serial number of the Lycoming engine of your airplane.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I haven't. With about 1800 hours of Lycoming engines running at my command in airplanes (figure around 10,000 hours of cylinder time), I've never had a stuck valve.
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My Lycoming H2AD ("OMG! it will kill you!!!!" :hairraise:) has just got to 2,100 hours, compressions all around 78, and it has never been touched. No valve issues, no new cylinders, nothing. Will be getting it re-worked by Penn Yan in the next couple of months and looking forward to the next 2,000 hours.
 
ChrisS said:
My Lycoming H2AD ("OMG! it will kill you!!!!" :hairraise:) has just got to 2,100 hours, compressions all around 78, and it has never been touched. No valve issues, no new cylinders, nothing. Will be getting it re-worked by Penn Yan in the next couple of months and looking forward to the next 2,000 hours.
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why stop now? we had a 172P with over 3000 hrs since major on it when it got driven into a snowbank and flipped over. that was the best 172 we had.
 
tonycondon said:
why stop now? we had a 172P with over 3000 hrs since major on it when it got driven into a snowbank and flipped over. that was the best 172 we had.
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The paint is slightly marked. :wink2:
 
tonycondon said:
why stop now? we had a 172P with over 3000 hrs since major on it when it got driven into a snowbank and flipped over. that was the best 172 we had.
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My right engine's at 1900 hours. I have no intention of overhauling it at 2000 unless it tell sme it needs it. So far, it hasn't.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My right engine's at 1900 hours. I have no intention of overhauling it at 2000 unless it tell sme it needs it. So far, it hasn't.
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My situation is a bit unusual, it means that if I were ever to need any engine work doing it would severely affect my flying for the year. Hence me being super cautious and getting the rebuild done even without any real pressing need. If my situation was different I'd probably run it a while longer.
 
tonycondon said:
me too
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I'll add a "me three" for a friend's C-150's O-200.

He fought with losing a cylinder during a couple of takeoffs and one landing with his AI helping Jim get it unstuck each time until they got annoyed with it, they did the "rope trick" and reamed out the 100LL crud and it's all back to normal.

Have seen more problems with plug fouling due to not leaning aggressively during our high-altitude ground/taxi ops than valve issues over the years, but not totally discounting these guy's findings.

Just never seen it myself.
 
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