Lost one to hand propping at Gillespie

Sac Arrow said:
I've had to jump start my Turbo Arrow on a fairly regular basis. Which, is an awkward process if you have to do it by yourself. Normally I'd nose the car in, jump it, get it started and run in long enough for the battery to charge a bit, shut it down, repark the car, and start it up again.

But that didn't always work. Sometimes I'd have to leave it running, and get out to disconnect the jumper plug and back the car away. In that case I'd have it both chocked and the tail chained down, and I'd pull the chain before jumping in. Then I'd just taxi it over the chocks.
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Do you have a problem in your charging system, a weak battery or do you just not fly enough to keep it charged ?

If it is such a common occurence, you may benefit from one of those 'startpac' lithium portable jump batteries.
 
weilke said:
Do you have a problem in your charging system, a weak battery or do you just not fly enough to keep it charged ?

If it is such a common occurence, you may benefit from one of those 'startpac' lithium portable jump batteries.
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It was a cold weather issue. For whatever reason the engine in that airplane was very cold blooded, and it was easy to run the battery down in an effort to get it started below 35 degrees, particularly if the battery was weak.

No longer an issue, as I do not have that plane anymore. That does sound like a good idea though.
 
steingar said:
I am very fortunate in that I was trained by one of the mechanics on my field.
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How do you know he trained you correctly?

just because you weren't killed the first time you tried it doesn't mean you are an expert.

I started flying by hand propping a J-3/ C-65, and have hand propped a P&W 1340, but does that qualify me to hand prop a PA 28?
 
Tom-D said:
How do you know he trained you correctly?
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I started my aircraft by hand propping it. Since that's what I claimed to be trained to do, and my training allowed me to do it, the title of "trained" seems appropriate.

Tom-D said:
just because you weren't killed the first time you tried it doesn't mean you are an expert.
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I am not aware of making that claim. I claimed to be "trained", as evidenced by my ability to hand prop my aircraft.

Tom-D said:
I started flying by hand propping a J-3/ C-65, and have hand propped a P&W 1340, but does that qualify me to hand prop a PA 28?
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I would say that it does indeed. The issues we dealt with were not specific to my airplane, and mostly involved safety. I don't feel turning a prop qualifies as rocket-science.
 
my thoughts on hand propping a PA -28 or any aircraft with a starter battery system.

I believe that any FAA ASI, that spots you hand propping any aircraft with a starter/battery system will have no problem violating you on these FARs.

91.7, 91.13 (a) and 91.405 (a)

when you have a dead battery you do have a discrepancy, and as a pilot/owner you have the responsibility to get that discrepancy repaired and returned to service by the properly authorized person.

that's my 2 cents.
 
Tom-D said:
my thoughts on hand propping a PA -28 or any aircraft with a starter battery system.

I believe that any FAA ASI, that spots you hand propping any aircraft with a starter/battery system will have no problem violating you on these FARs.

91.7, 91.13 (a) and 91.405 (a)

when you have a dead battery you do have a discrepancy, and as a pilot/owner you have the responsibility to get that discrepancy repaired and returned to service by the properly authorized person.

that's my 2 cents.
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I would not disagree with you at all. There is a good reason I've got the thing hooked up to a tender. I didn't like doing it at the time, and hope to never do it again.
 
Tom-D said:
I started flying by hand propping a J-3/ C-65, and have hand propped a P&W 1340, but does that qualify me to hand prop a PA 28?
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no, as to do so would violate one of my set rules, no hand propping starter equipped planes.

Just my $.02
 
Sac Arrow said:
It was a cold weather issue. For whatever reason the engine in that airplane was very cold blooded, and it was easy to run the battery down in an effort to get it started below 35 degrees, particularly if the battery was weak.

No longer an issue, as I do not have that plane anymore. That does sound like a good idea though.
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Better yet if you still had the plane, you should find a way to warm the engine before starting and invest in a good battery. If you're running down a good battery trying to start you're probably also frying the starter and if the problem is a weak battery, you'll likely lose all power quickly if the alternator/generator ever quits.
 
Tom-D said:
my thoughts on hand propping a PA -28 or any aircraft with a starter battery system.

I believe that any FAA ASI, that spots you hand propping any aircraft with a starter/battery system will have no problem violating you on these FARs.

91.7, 91.13 (a) and 91.405 (a)

when you have a dead battery you do have a discrepancy, and as a pilot/owner you have the responsibility to get that discrepancy repaired and returned to service by the properly authorized person.

that's my 2 cents.
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Would it be legal to mark the battery "INOP" and then fly after determining that you don't need electrical power for the flight?
 
gismo said:
Would it be legal to mark the battery "INOP" and then fly after determining that you don't need electrical power for the flight?
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You would have to unmark it before you took off, because by then it would have a charge in it (assuming the original problem was just a low battery).
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You would have to unmark it before you took off, because by then it would have a charge in it (assuming the original problem was just a low battery).
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Unless you sit there for 40-60 minutes it won't have much of a charge if it was dead to begin with. So I guess that means you would have to reach out the window, unfasten the cowl, and remove the label in flight after you'd been cruising for a while.
 
gismo said:
Unless you sit there for 40-60 minutes it won't have much of a charge if it was dead to begin with. So I guess that means you would have to reach out the window, unfasten the cowl, and remove the label in flight after you'd been cruising for a while.
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Do you folks have FAA ASIs permanently housed in your hangars?

:confused:
 
bartmc said:
What's "the rope technique"?
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I use a rope to start my taildragger all the time. The rope goes from a handle on the tail to a nearby solid object that won't move.
 
gismo said:
Would it be legal to mark the battery "INOP" and then fly after determining that you don't need electrical power for the flight?
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Is it marked with a R or an O on your equipment list?

Is it even listed ?

Is removing it a major or a minor modification to the Charging circuit?
 
Tom-D said:
Is it marked with a R or an O on your equipment list?

Is it even listed ?

Is removing it a major or a minor modification to the Charging circuit?
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:DI'm pretty sure the charge in the battery is not listed on any equipment list. As to the major/minor mod issue, it doesn't seem to me that it would affect flight characteristics very much.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
The right way to do it:

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Right on.
I like how they discourage the "swinging leg" technique... it looks cool because everybody's seen old footage of WWI ground crews doing this. But those guys had a legitimate reason to 1) put part of their body in the prop arc and 2) reduce their stability by at least 50%: they were swinging heavy rotary engines with enormous props that often had heavy steel guards on the leading edge. They needed a little extra energy in addition to what they could do with their upper body.
But when you're hand-starting something like a Cub or Champ, or even a Cherokee, there's no need for this, and it makes me cringe when I see it, even though I know people who've been safely doing it that way for years.
They also talk about working with the impulse coupling and placing the fingers correctly, to minimize kick-back problems. smart.

Only thing I've ever hand-propped is 65-hp Champs, but believe me, I treat even that "toy" engine and prop like it's a Bearcat with a flaky throttle linkage and no brakes. Nothing gets in the prop arc, I have both feet on a firm and safe surface when I swing the prop, and I am moving my entire body away as I follow through. When that first piston fires, you have a metal or wood club suddenly and rapidly coming at you that's about 3 feet long and weighs more than 30 pounds. It can ruin your day, even before it reaches idle rpm, and even if you only get a fingertip smashed by it... so you must not have any part of your body in its path, and you have to be moving away, just in case the airplane lurches towards you. Imagine holding such a prop blade, loose, in your hand, holding your other hand in front of you, and simply bringing the blade down onto that hand, say, with the force you'd use to drive a nail. That would hurt, right? Same goes for your leg, or your head. And without doing the calculations, I'll wager that a Champ prop on its first sputtering lurch will yield a lot more energy. And if your fingers are hooked over the trailing edge and it kicks back- ouch.

Unless it was a matter of life or death, I don't think I'd try to prop anything that normally uses a starter. Just my little rule of thumb. Some pretty wimpy engines have starters on them, but here's a life lesson: rented C-150 with an O-200 wouldn't start on a very cold morning. Tried repeatedly, and killed the battery. All seemed correct with the controls... hmmm. I shut everything off and pulled it through, and I could tell immediately that the starter pinion was stuck in the "engaged" position, causing the engine to conk out due to the load (and I guess it interferes with the timing, like trying to start a car in a high gear). And even if it had turned over before the battery died, it's not good to run an engine with an electric starter engaged with the flywheel. Flight cancelled, as far as I was concerned.
But an instructor disregarded my analysis, and proceeded to try to hand-prop it, while standing on ice... and yes, he swung his leg. I didn't have a cellphone at the time; I remember visualizing a quick path to the nearest phone to call an ambulance when he inevitably slipped just as it started, and got clobbered... and I cringed each time he tried to pull it.
He must have tried valiantly six or seven times before he reluctantly accepted defeat; damn good thing it never even turned over.

Having said all that, I have to also say that as the video suggests, this unfortunate guy at Gillespie might have succeeded despite the odds, but it's safe to say that his technique was probably lacking. I'm guessing he was leaning on the prop as he pulled it down, or he swung his leg and lost his balance. Might have done it before, but you only have to do it wrong once... :(
 
Two days after this hand propping incident at Gillespie (KSEE) another pilot at the same airport decided to hand prop his PA28 by standing at on the right side of the propeller. He reached up and pulled the blade down, it started, the problem was, he pulled down, which bent him over, and the descending blade split his head, he lost his life.

The last time I flew, my battery was dead. The mechanic tried to jump start it, didn't work. He said he would hand prop it. My CFI buddy was with me, so I said lets do it.

I primed it, set the brake, we both put our feet on the brakes, then I set the magnetos on "start". Luckily my CFI friend caught my blunder before the prop was pulled. The mags must be set on "both", not start.

While we were carefully going through all of this in cockpit stuff, the mechanic just walked over and pulled the prop. No safety questions, no nothing. It started right up.

John
 
John Baker said:
I primed it, set the brake, we both put our feet on the brakes, then I set the magnetos on "start". Luckily my CFI friend caught my blunder before the prop was pulled. The mags must be set on "both", not start.
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Depends, if you have only one impusle coupleing you need to be on that mag AND THAT MAG ONLY. Many airplanes are like this and the switch grounds out the other mag when flipped to "Start." You aren't likely to spin the engine fast enough to make the non IC equipped mag fire, but I happen to know a guy who did, and when it kicked back into his hand it screwed it up badly.
 
Skylane81E said:
Depends, if you have only one impusle coupleing you need to be on that mag AND THAT MAG ONLY. Many airplanes are like this and the switch grounds out the other mag when flipped to "Start." You aren't likely to spin the engine fast enough to make the non IC equipped mag fire, but I happen to know a guy who did, and when it kicked back into his hand it screwed it up badly.
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Yes. If you have an impulse, that is the mag to use.

I don't have an impulse and according to the book you need 200 engine rpm to get the ignition to fire. But it hand starts just fine. (I'm sure having the gear reduction helps.)
 
I remember my first PPL CFI (French woman) handpropping the C152, handmade cigarette in mouth, my logbook had all of 5 hours TT. That lady I tell ya.

I don't do it. Not worth it. Watching that guy on the video handprop from behind the arc, watch how close his face is to that prop when it starts. Yikes! I'll never be in that much of a hurry so as to necessitate hand propping, especially my 160hp warrior, that thing is a bear to pull through, let alone attempt something solo or with an unqualified person in the cockpit (100% of my mission).

Good on the folks on a well made video though. Certainly something tailwheel pilots on the bush can find useful and informative :)
 
John Baker said:
Snip...
While we were carefully going through all of this in cockpit stuff, the mechanic just walked over and pulled the prop. No safety questions, no nothing. It started right up.

John
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Yeah. And I changed hundreds of split-rim truck tires in my youth without safety equipment or losing any body parts. Doesn't mean I'd do it again.
 
Reading this thread makes me so glad that the time "I" tried to hand prop the 200hp Beech Sierra that it didn't even turn over. I was at the controls, and the guy who was swinging the prop had a lot of experience at it, but I was still scared! Turns out that the battery wasn't dead, only a loose circuit breaker. Or at least the copilot touching each CB (none seemed to be popped) allowed us to start with the battery. In retrospect, I shouldn't even have allowed him to attempt it.
 
dmccormack said:
You don't need to be lost out in the wilderness to know how to correctly and safely hand-prop....
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True, but I would disagree with the statement they made in the video that hand-propping was something every pilot should know.
 
Fearless Tower said:
True, but I would disagree with the statement they made in the video that hand-propping was something every pilot should know.
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I guess I'm of two minds on that one. The first is, since most pilots fly aircraft equipped with starters, they shouldn't be hand-propping, and thus shouldn't know how, so they aren't tempted to try. The second is not knowing how to do something never seems to stop pilots, so if they're trained at least they'll know the basic safety criteria and perhaps not injure themselves.
 
Fearless Tower said:
True, but I would disagree with the statement they made in the video that hand-propping was something every pilot should know.
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I think a more appropriate statement would be that every pilot who attempts to hand prop an airplane themselves should already know how to do it.
 
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