Lost medical, had an incident

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Lost my medical, then on a flight last week, I had a landing incident that bent the prop and nose wheel, reported it cause its a busy airport and away from home.

What will the FAA do to me?

I jumped through all the hoops to get it back, got off the medications that made me lose the medical. But hadn't gotten the letter stating that I had it back yet.

Not the smartest thing I've done but whats done is done.
 
Lost my medical, then on a flight last week, I had a landing incident that bent the prop and nose wheel, reported it cause its a busy airport and away from home.

What will the FAA do to me?

I jumped through all the hoops to get it back, got off the medications that made me lose the medical. But hadn't gotten the letter stating that I had it back yet.

Not the smartest thing I've done but whats done is done.

Ouch. Get a lawyer. The FAA will probably go after this one, unfortunately.
 
I dunno about the FAA - since you already don't have a medical, then your ticket isn't valid, so FAA can pull it and you'd be no worse than you are now. Except your chances of getting it back just dropped dramatically.

The insurance company, on the other hand, will probably hand you the full bill and walk away.
 
Do you have any aspirations to ever fly for a living ?

Did your dinged prop have anything to do with the reason why you lost your medical ?

What the FAA will do to you: Not much. I happen to know someone who dinged a prop with a expired medical. The FAA suspended his license and required him to come for a 709 ride once he regained his medical. He didn't go for the ride and they didn't come to drag him in either (he never regained his medical and passed away before the FAA stormtroopers could come out to his strip to seize his aircraft).

Your insurance co may be more of a worry, for this damage and your future insurability. They don't like the breaking of rules for some reason.
 
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Get an aviation lawyer with FAA enforcement experience, and say nothing about this to anyone other than your lawyer lest the person to whom you say it be compelled to testify to it. That includes posting anything here.

As for what's likely to happen...

The FAA takes very seriously folks flying when their medical is on hold. Five cases involving violations of 14 CFR 61.23 went as far as the NTSB over the last ten years, and in all cases, all their certificates were revoked. While the facts in those cases generally involved extremely egrigious conditions and multiple violations, the fact that you knew you were not legal to fly is the sort of thing which sends the FAA into legal apoplexy (it's just not the same as forgetting when your medical expired), so be prepared for the worst the FAA can throw at you. To "be prepared" in such as case means having good legal advice from a competent attorney familiar with this branch of law, but even if you get F. Lee Bailey (a pilot as well as attorney), don't expect miracles.
 
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Ouch. What Ron said.

You gambled, you lost, time to cash in what chips you have left and use them to pay for a good lawyer if you want to fly again legally in the future. Just don't talk about it here... or anywhere else other than your lawyer.

Good luck. Once this all plays out, I hope you can post how it went.
 
Lost my medical, then on a flight last week, I had a landing incident that bent the prop and nose wheel, reported it cause its a busy airport and away from home.

What will the FAA do to me?

Hard to say but if you could figure out who this guy is he could probably tell you.:yikes:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20100108X21035&key=1

NTSB Identification: WPR10CA101
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Thursday, January 07, 2010 in Palm Springs, CA
Aircraft: CESSNA 195B, registration: N2171C
Injuries: 1 Minor.
The commercial pilot reported he was landing the tail wheel-equipped airplane on a dry, hard-surfaced runway. He stated that during the landing roll out, as he was transitioning his feet from the bottom of the rudder pedals to the top, he applied too much brake pressure and the airplane nosed over. He further stated that he suffers from diabetic neuropathy and did not initially realize how much brake pressure he applied. The airplane sustained substantial damage to the fuselage and tail assembly. The pilot reported that there were no pre-accident mechanical failures or malfunctions with the airplane. The pilot does not possess a current FAA medical certificate.

Dave
 
Remember kids before you go turning yourselves in read part 830. Props and landing gear are not reportable regardless of the $$$ involved.
 
I hope I didn't fall for a troll.

You will likely end up personally responsible for the damage. The insurance company will find it has no obligation to help you out. If they help you out they are protecting THEIR reputation.

You reported the incident to whom?
 
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To the OP as I can't send a PM:

Don't sweat it too much.

A guy I know ran a plane off a runway in december and did a bit of damage. The FAA looked at it, decided it was an 'incident' and left it at that. However, during the process, they picked up on his medical from the Nixon administration and some gaps in his systems knowledge on the plane involved. Last I remember he had an invitation for a little ride around the patch with them. Guess what the airman database says as off today:


Medical Class: Third Medical Date: 1/2010

# MUST HAVE AVAILABLE GLASSES FOR NEAR VISION.

Certificates
1 of 1
DOI: 1/7/2010
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT
Rating(s):
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND


So, I dare to differ from the doom and gloom scenarios here. I assume your little bent prop didn't include anything egregious otherwise, so there is a good chance that you will be back in the air the moment you get your medical and your little proficiency ride out of the way.
Talking to an aviation attorney may still be worth the investment. But more likely the same money spent on a couple of hours with a good CFI to polish your landing and test-taking skills would get you closer to a reinstated ticket than lawyering up.

By the way: His insurance paid for the bent metal.
 
What about filling out an ASRS form? Would that change anything?

(This is just for my own curiosity on how far they protect you)
 
What about filling out an ASRS form? Would that change anything?

(This is just for my own curiosity on how far they protect you)

Not at all.

ASRS 'protects' against inadvertent infractions. Knowing that your medical is expired and flying anyway is willful and as such not covered.
 
reported to NSTB,FAA

Thought that I had to, didn't have the fars with me and the mech on the field was very worried if it would be reported.

Thanks you all, I hope I get to fly someday, I wont start over at this age.
 
Lost my medical, then on a flight last week, I had a landing incident that bent the prop and nose wheel, reported it cause its a busy airport and away from home.

What will the FAA do to me?

I jumped through all the hoops to get it back, got off the medications that made me lose the medical. But hadn't gotten the letter stating that I had it back yet.

Not the smartest thing I've done but whats done is done.

I thought you were taxiing that aircraft?
 
Isn't taxiing operating the aircraft, thereby requiring a valid pilot certificate?
No. Technically, you don't need a pilot certificate until you attempt to fly it. However, if it was a "landing incident," you can't use that defense.

As for those other cases mentioned where there was an expired medical, those aren't relevant since in this case it wasn't expired, it was yanked. Cases on point (violations of 61.53, resulting in revocations) in the NTSB Opinions & Orders file suggest the FAA becomes very upset when the person's medical was pulled as opposed to just being expired. Again, more reason to obtain competent legal assistance before proceeding further.

As for the reportability of the event, it's water under the bridge, and you can't rescind a call to the FSDO. While the OP might have gotten away with not reporting it, it might also have been reported by someone else who saw it, or even an Airworthiness Inspector who was doing a routine surveillance of the shop in which it was being repaired, and the appearance of trying to hide such an event from the FAA in such circumstances might raise their hackles further.
 
As for those other cases mentioned where there was an expired medical, those aren't relevant since in this case it wasn't expired, it was yanked.

One of the two cases I saw up close was a medical that had been pulled.

They may get upset, they don't have to. Their interest in that arena seems to be that people have a license and a medical when they fly, not so much retribution and deterrence. Seems unusual for the FAA.

We had another kid who flew on his expired student certificate for years until he dinged his plane. Same thing. Told him to come back with his medical for a checkride.
 
One of the two cases I saw up close was a medical that had been pulled.

They may get upset, they don't have to. Their interest in that arena seems to be that people have a license and a medical when they fly, not so much retribution and deterrence. Seems unusual for the FAA.

We had another kid who flew on his expired student certificate for years until he dinged his plane. Same thing. Told him to come back with his medical for a checkride.
Could happen here. Could also be a revocation. Or could be something in between. Hence, my recommendation for legal advice before the OP says something to the Feds that can't be unsaid but can be used for hanging purposes.
 
Could happen here. Could also be a revocation. Or could be something in between. Hence, my recommendation for legal advice before the OP says something to the Feds that can't be unsaid but can be used for hanging purposes.

....and then we had the guy recently who talked himself right out of his ticket, in a local TV interview :frown2::frown2:

If done right, the OP may be able to play dumb and blame it all on a misunderstanding with his AME which would mitigate the intentional aspect of the infraction :redface:
 
This is not legal advice but rather is a discussion amongst colleagues undertaken for purely educational reasons. No person should rely on any statements made by the author for any reason other than having a collegial discussion.

I suspect they apply Mr. Justice Stewart's rule -- they know it when they see it.

Hi Ron, I hope all is well with you.

I think you mean intent when you say attempt. This is all hypothetical since the person posting admits to having been flying and characterizes the event as a landing incident - implying it happened on the runway.

But, the point you make is interesting because there are some useful distinctions and differences to understand.

FAR 1.1
Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own
power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest
after landing; (emphasis added)
Purpose appears to be important and purpose implies intent but, not to put too fine a point on it, not attempt.

FAR 61.3(c)

(c) Medical certificate. (1) Except as provided for in paragraph
(c)(2) of this section, a person may not act as pilot in command or in
any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft,
under a certificate issued to that person under this part, unless that
person has a current and appropriate medical certificate that has been
issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable
to the Administrator, which is in that person's physical possession or
readily accessible in the aircraft. (emphasis added)
So it is pretty clear you cannot fly an aircraft without a valid medical certificate (there are exception not relevant here).

So the next question is - Does taxiing an aircraft rather than being airborne matter with regard to medical certification? I think according to 1.1 it does if you can make the case that the movement was for other than the purpose of flight and hinges on the question: is the person taxiing an aircraft for purposes other than flying a required crewmember?

Again we take a look at

FAR 1.1.

Crewmember means a person assigned to perform duty in an aircraft
during flight time.
I think one could reasonably argue that the act of taxiing an aircraft for purposes other than flight does not require a medical certificate. Note, flight time is defined differently for pilots than aircraft. For the moment let's use the pilot definition as it is broader. Here we have the following:

Flight time means operations with intent to fly,
Medical certificate is needed when a person is a required crewmember, and
a person is a required crewmember only when flight time is involved. Therefore taxiing for purposes other than flight does not result in flight time and absent flight time no crewmember requirement and absent a crewmember requirement no medical certification requirement.

I'd have to do the case law research to see if the FAA/NTSB has a different view.

Here is the kicker though.

FAR 91.13 -

(b) Aircraft operations other than for the purpose of air
navigation. No person may operate an aircraft, other than for the
purpose of air navigation, on any part of the surface of an airport used
by aircraft for air commerce (including areas used by those aircraft for
receiving or discharging persons or cargo), in a careless or reckless
manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.
I quote just sub (b) because it is new since you and I learned to fly and it basically removes the concept of intent from the regulatory structure since the purpose to go flying is a missing qualifier. It used to be that one could be involved in an aircraft movement for other than flight and escape FAA liability for bad outcomes. Old Days: "Dear FAA I was not operating an aircraft for the purpose of flight when I taxied into your lovely G-2 and therefore I am not compelled to comply with the Federal Aviation Regulations." This was a frequently used get out of jail free card for ground incidents - "I was just going to the wash rack, maintenance shop, deice pad, etc." So in the old days you could make an "intent" argument to avoid a careless and reckless finding. But, if one considers that the FAA and NTSB have through caselaw effectively redefined careless and reckless to mean any operation with a bad outcome, it is probable that they will go after someone with a license even when they are taxiing for repositioning purposes regardless of intent.

I think the phrase "air commerce" would be broadly construed to make the regulations applicable to any part of the airport that is available for public use by aircraft.

We are not done yet, lets look at NTSB part 830

Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation
of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the
aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have
disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or
in which the aircraft receives substantial damage.(emphasis added).
They use similar language for incidents.

Here intent matters and once established then the reporting requirements hinge on whether the occurrence was an incident or accident as those terms are defined.


So it is quite possible that the NTSB would consider an occurance to be neither an accident nor an incident, yet the FAA finds a violation of 91.13.

---------------------------------------------------

Knowledge and intent matter when issues of culpability are considered. As you and others have pointed out the FAA takes a much more lenient approach when they think the violation was unintentional. When they think it was intentional, or where they think a higher standard must be applied, for example commercial operations, they tend to be very harsh.

I think you are quite correct that it is probably the case, but this is just a guess and NOT legal advice, that the pilot will be treated very harshly by the FAA. I imagine they will move to revoke the individual's licenses. I do not think they will be amenable to civil penalties as this appears to be a pretty egregious violation. I do not think they will pursue criminal penalties because there was no commercial activity involved
and further I don't think the US attorney's office is going to be hot to pursue such a minor case to a criminal conviction and would tell FAA to go revoke the license and end it there.

All that being said, we don't have the full facts. The individual should contact a qualified attorney if keeping their license is a desired outcome.
 
Arnold -- long time no see, buddy! Good to hear from you again. Gonna be at the FlyBQ in May?

As for taxiing with neither a pilot/medical certificate nor intent to fly, the airlines have taxi-qualified mechanics who reposition their jets from the gate to maintenance and back, and as far as I know, that's strictly a company training issue, with neither pilot nor medical certificates involved. I know I permitted our son to taxi the plane back to the hangar from the pumps before he turned 16. Whether the FAA would take action against a non-pilot/medical-certificated person for violating rules such as 91.13 for doing something dumb that results in damage or injury, or 91.123 for doing something against a taxi instruction from ground, is another matter entirely. While I suspect they would, I've never researched the point, but in such a case, they'd have to assess a civil penalty rather than take action against a nonexistant certificate.

But, as you said, this aspect is an academic discussion, since in the instant case, the OP admitted the problem occurred on landing, so flight most definitely was involved.
 
If done right, the OP may be able to play dumb and blame it all on a misunderstanding with his AME which would mitigate the intentional aspect of the infraction :redface:
Some folks are born lucky, and it will probably take luck to sell that argument. Me? I'd rather rely on skill than luck, so a skilled attorney is the weapon I'd bring to that fight. YMMV.
 
Arnold -- long time no see, buddy! Good to hear from you again. Gonna be at the FlyBQ in May?

As for taxiing with neither a pilot/medical certificate nor intent to fly, the airlines have taxi-qualified mechanics who reposition their jets from the gate to maintenance and back, and as far as I know, that's strictly a company training issue, with neither pilot nor medical certificates involved. I know I permitted our son to taxi the plane back to the hangar from the pumps before he turned 16. Whether the FAA would take action against a non-pilot/medical-certificated person for violating rules such as 91.13 for doing something dumb that results in damage or injury, or 91.123 for doing something against a taxi instruction from ground, is another matter entirely. While I suspect they would, I've never researched the point, but in such a case, they'd have to assess a civil penalty rather than take action against a nonexistant certificate.

But, as you said, this aspect is an academic discussion, since in the instant case, the OP admitted the problem occurred on landing, so flight most definitely was involved.

I worked ground service at JFK back in the early 1980's, for a company that mainly served fly-by-night (literally) carriers from third-world banana republics whose airplanes had very odd smells.

I often moved airplanes around on the ground because hardstand time was cheaper than terminal time, and these carriers wanted to save every penny they could. Unless the plane was turning around, they barely waited for the last passenger to disembark before they wanted the airplane moved. Sometimes we towed them, but usually we just got a pushback and taxied them from there.

The only requirements to taxi an airplane were company training (laughable), a written test about how the airport was laid out, an FCC radio permit, and a 30-minute video about radio communication and ground ops. Except for the radio permit, these were all PONYA requirements, not federal ones.

-Rich
 
\

I know I permitted our son to taxi the plane back to the hangar from the pumps before he turned 16. Whether the FAA would take action against a non-pilot/medical-certificated person for violating rules such as 91.13 for doing something dumb that results in damage or injury, or 91.123 for doing something against a taxi instruction from ground, is another matter entirely. While I suspect they would, I've never researched the point, but in such a case, they'd have to assess a civil penalty rather than take action against a nonexistant certificate.

\

This is from Order 8900.1

14-86 RECKLESS OPERATION OF AIRCRAFT. Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) § 91.1391.13 and has thus contributed towards a definition of the phrase, “reckless manner.” provides that, “No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.” Neither 49 United States Code (49 U.S.C.) nor the 14 CFR define “reckless” or “reckless manner.” The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), however, has in several cases dealt with the allegation that a particular operations was “reckless” within the meaning of 14 CFR §

A. NTSB Case History. The cases studied by the NTSB indicate that recklessness involves deliberate and willful conduct, i.e., conduct that reflects a wanton disregard for others’ safety.

1) The inspector can infer a deliberate and willful disregard of the regulations or safety standards from the circumstances surrounding a violation.

a) It need not be established that a pilot intended to be reckless but only that he or she intended to engage in deliberate or willful action which resulted in a deviation from 14 CFR or from safety standards and which created actual or potential danger to the life or property of another.

b) For example, the NTSB said of a pilot whom it found to have been reckless when the pilot deliberately operated an aircraft within 50 to 200 feet of another aircraft for a period of 5 to 10 minutes—

“… so long as the respondent intends to do the particular acts complained of, and the resulting action widely departs from the norm of reasonably prudent conduct, a finding of reckless operation does not require proof of the state of the pilot’s mind but can be inferred from the nature of [the pilot’s] acts or omissions and the surrounding circumstances.”
2) In one violation the airmen flew visual flight rules (VFR) in formation and proceeded into a mountainous area in instrument flight rules (IFR) conditions at dusk without ascertaining the weather conditions. Neither pilot held an instrument rating and one aircraft had an inoperative radio. The NTSB declared that the conduct of such a flight was reckless. The NTSB found that the conduct was “… so devoid of basic safe operating practices and adherence to critical safety regulations that it constituted a reckless operation.”

B. Conduct Deemed Reckless. The fact patterns of some individual cases tried before the NTSB provide guidance about the kind of conduct that the NTSB will deem reckless. For example:

1) The pilot of an aircraft, in an attempt to land on a highway in a non‑emergency situation, approached from the rear and struck a moving truck. The truck was substantially damaged, and the person who was sitting in the middle of the front seat of the truck was seriously injured. The NTSB, after considering the circumstances surrounding the incident, found that the respondent operated the aircraft in a reckless manner.

2) In another case an airman willfully and deliberately made several extremely close passes near a van for the purpose of causing apprehension or bodily harm to the occupants of the van. The NTSB wrote, “Such piloting can only be characterized as reckless operation which created a serious hazard to the van.”

3) The allegation of recklessness was affirmed by the NTSB in a case where an air carrier pilot operating an aircraft in scheduled air transportation took off from an airport after being advised that the reported visibility was 1/16 of a mile. The takeoff minimums were 1/4 of a mile. The NTSB held that the “… knowing violation of one of the standards applicable to air carrier pilots forms the basis of the finding of reckless operation.”

4) In another case where the NTSB found recklessness, the pilot violated several 14 CFR. The airman carried passengers on several flights when not rated in the aircraft, had no instruction or experience in the aircraft, the aircraft had not been issued an airworthiness certificate nor had been inspected for the issuance of the certificate, the aircraft had not undergone an annual inspection, and the aircraft carried no identification markings. The NTSB considered the entire range of circumstances and the broad areas of noncompliance with the regulations under which numerous flights were conducted, many on which passengers were carried, a reckless operation.

5) In another case, the airman was acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on a VFR, passenger‑carrying flight carrying parachutists for compensation. The pilot deliberately performed an aileron roll. The seriousness of this violation was accentuated by the fact that the aircraft was not certificated for aerobatics, two parachutists were in the air when the roll was performed, the roll took place at an altitude of 500 to 800 feet over a group of persons on the ground, and the flight was made for compensation. The NTSB found the respondent’s violations to be deliberate and knowing and, therefore, reckless.

6) In another case the pilot in command flew the pilot’s personal aircraft on a VFR, passenger carrying flight. During the course of the flight, the aircraft entered clouds and subsequently crashed into a mountainside. The NTSB held that the “… respondent’s continued VFR flight into clouds in the vicinity of mountainous terrain demonstrated inherently reckless conduct.”

7) A pilot was found to be reckless when that pilot ignored specific air traffic control instructions. Contrary to air traffic control (ATC) instructions, the pilot failed to report downwind, landed the aircraft instead of going around, made a 180 degree turn on the runway, and departed via a taxiway. The NTSB noted that the go‑around instruction was given four separate times by the controller, yet the pilot persisted with the approach and landing. The NTSB also stated that, “… it appears that [the pilot] made up his mind to land the aircraft and no amount of instruction from the tower could keep him from that goal.” The pilot’s operation of the aircraft was characterized as reckless.

C. Conclusion. While there is no regulatory definition of the term, “reckless,” it has been defined in cases decided by the NTSB. A reckless operation results from the operation of an aircraft conducted with a deliberate or willful disregard of the regulations or accepted standards of safety so as to endanger the life or property of another either potentially or actually. Accordingly, any such reckless behavior violates 14 CFR § 91.13.
 
After reading that quote from 8900.1, I don't see anything about unlicensed personnel taxiing aircraft. If it did so apply, a lot of airline mechanics like Rich would have been busted long before now. If you see something I've missed that does appear to you to apply to the case of a non-pilot taxiing an aircraft in a safe manner after being appropriately trained, I'd appreciate you pointing it out.
 
After reading that quote from 8900.1, I don't see anything about unlicensed personnel taxiing aircraft. If it did so apply, a lot of airline mechanics like Rich would have been busted long before now. If you see something I've missed that does appear to you to apply to the case of a non-pilot taxiing an aircraft in a safe manner after being appropriately trained, I'd appreciate you pointing it out.

The post of 8900.1 is in reference to the ever worn out, over used references to 91.13 and how some people think the FAA will always use this regulation no matter what.

Just trying to clear up yet another myth.
 
I sold a taylorcraft to a gentleman who was waiting on a special issuance medical. Before getting his medical back he totalled th t-craft with a friend on board. Neither were bruised too bad. He was required to wait for his medical to be reinstated , then had to take a checkride. The FAA was more than fair with him. I figured he was done flying. He was back flying legally within a few months.
 
I sold a taylorcraft to a gentleman who was waiting on a special issuance medical. Before getting his medical back he totalled th t-craft with a friend on board. Neither were bruised too bad. He was required to wait for his medical to be reinstated , then had to take a checkride. The FAA was more than fair with him. I figured he was done flying. He was back flying legally within a few months.

Yeah, but what is that actual experience against academic discussions and fear scenarios.....
 
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