Lost a mag in-flight today...

Henning said:
However it would be unnecessary, you can just meter the point break and measure the gap.
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Gapping the points with a feeler isn't accurate on a magneto. those points need to open at a specified angle of rotation past the rotor's neutral point (the E-gap) and as the cam or rubbing block wear, that points gap will decrease for the same E-gap angle of opening. Even new parts aren't perfect and using a feeler will result in something less than a perfect E-gap, with a reduction in spark intensity.

From http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/184370-1.html

The E-gap (Efficiency gap) is the point at which the greatest magnetic field stress occurs. The specific number of degrees beyond the neutral magnetic position is called the E-gap angle. Opening the breaker points at this time interrupts the primary circuit current flow, and allows current to be induced in the secondary coil. This results in the maximum spark being produced at the plugs.
 
my question is, if the engine was running with the mag in that position what does the gear train look like. could be a bunch of metal floating around that engine.
 
unsafervguy said:
my question is, if the engine was running with the mag in that position what does the gear train look like. could be a bunch of metal floating around that engine.
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Chunks of rubber from the coupler are a big risk as well, maybe more than small bits of metal since they can clog the oil passages.
 
Henning said:
Chunks of rubber from the coupler are a big risk as well, maybe more than small bits of metal since they can clog the oil passages.
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The oil at that point enters the oil pan so the suction screen should stop the big chunks and the oil filter should get the rest. However, you are right it can cause problems if debris goes through the oil bypass.
 
Again here, for reference. This problem was obviously caused by the lousy maintenance S&S Aviation in Winnsboro, SC (KFDW) does for their rental planes. They didn't use both clips for the R/H magneto.
The owner being unreasonable, asking me to pay for Hobbs hours we did by diverting and fixing this issue. I even helped the mechanic. In return, I get called a thief and get phone calls from the police. Should have left the plane there.

Avoid N47S like cancer.

More details in this thread:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84345&page=3
 
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Henning said:
Chunks of rubber from the coupler are a big risk as well, maybe more than small bits of metal since they can clog the oil passages.
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What rubber parts does a mag impulse coupling have?
 
mtuomi said:
Again here, for reference. This problem was obviously caused by the lousy maintenance S&S Aviation in Winnsboro, SC (KFDW) does for their rental planes. They didn't use both clips for the R/H magneto.
The owner being unreasonable, asking me to pay for Hobbs hours we did by diverting and fixing this issue. I even helped the mechanic. In return, I get called a thief and get phone calls from the police. Should have left the plane there.

Avoid N47S like cancer.

More details in this thread:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84345&page=3
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That is really the lesson you should learn from this. When rentals fail, unless you prearrange the compensation for your involvement in the repair process, walk away from it. It's a rental, it's not you job to deal with. You rent a car from Hertz and it breaks down, you call them and they bring you a new car on the tow truck to bring that one back. That's what this guy should have done, brought another plane and dealt with this one.
 
Henning said:
That is really the lesson you should learn from this. When rentals fail, unless you prearrange the compensation for your involvement in the repair process, walk away from it. It's a rental, it's not you job to deal with. You rent a car from Hertz and it breaks down, you call them and they bring you a new car on the tow truck to bring that one back. That's what this guy should have done, brought another plane and dealt with this one.
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Very true, Sir.

He fooled me big time. I wanted to help him and I did. I saved his engine twice. In return I get called a thief, and get calls from the police.

I was a bit shocked after his phone call. Instead of flying back home commercially, I waited in Houston Sunday-Wednesday. He sends me a message at 04.41AM Wednesday morning saying plane is fixed, what do we want to do with it (this is after I drove back up there on Monday trying to arrange a mechanic, then the owner sends the wrong part out and tells me the mechanic will get it up and running Tuesday morning.

There was no way we could have arranged anything to get back in time at that time in the morning on Wednesday, so we decided to fly this plane back. It was 6 hours of iron butt contest flying. Hell, we even paid the gas. And now he says I got to fly so I got to pay (per Hobbs, obviously...), even though had we just flown back that Sunday, he would've had to pay to get the plane back (AND pay for the gas).

Unreal. I'm still gobsmacked on his response.

People like Brian from S&S Aviation give GA a very bad rep.
 

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txflyer said:
meh, you still had one good mag.

I would have pressed on... ;)
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I had one good mag, and a few good quarts of oil left :)

10-15 minutes more and the engine would've required an overhaul.

Had I known, I would've ran it 'til empty. Atleast then I would not have anyone calling me a thief, having to talk to the police etc.
 
mtuomi said:
I had one good mag, and a few good quarts of oil left :)

10-15 minutes more and the engine would've required an overhaul.

Had I known, I would've ran it 'til empty. Atleast then I would not have anyone calling me a thief, having to talk to the police etc.
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No good deed goes unpunished right?

My shadow would not darken their doorstep again.
 
txflyer said:
No good deed goes unpunished right?

My shadow would not darken their doorstep again.
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Exactly. I'm sure karma bites them in the a** eventually.

I'm not familiar what kind of process is going on with the police though, maybe someone here knows better. The owner sent a message saying the deputy sheriff has been notified and is coming after me with a felony charge.

I got a call from the sheriff, who wanted to hear my side of the story. I told him, and he seemed to understand what was going on. He said he'll call the owner back and let me know, but I haven't heard anything yet.

No clue what happens next...
 
mtuomi said:
Yep. I was trying to be a careful renter. Obviously this place does not appreciate that.
Not going to change my habits, just changing my providers :)
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You know the saying, "No good deed goes unpunished.":lol:
 
mtuomi said:
Exactly. I'm sure karma bites them in the a** eventually.

I'm not familiar what kind of process is going on with the police though, maybe someone here knows better. The owner sent a message saying the deputy sheriff has been notified and is coming after me with a felony charge.

I got a call from the sheriff, who wanted to hear my side of the story. I told him, and he seemed to understand what was going on. He said he'll call the owner back and let me know, but I haven't heard anything yet.

No clue what happens next...
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The guy has his airplane, the Sherriff will most likely tell him this is a civil matter and to hire a lawyer. On the odd chance that he does, figure out your counter suit billing, hotel rooms, rental cars, extra meals on the road, and vacation time lost.
 
Henning said:
The guy has his airplane, the Sherriff will most likely tell him this is a civil matter and to hire a lawyer. On the odd chance that he does, figure out your counter suit billing, hotel rooms, rental cars, extra meals on the road, and vacation time lost.
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Yeah, that's what I thought. The owner claims it's felony theft, but I'm not sure how this would be theft, larceny or any other property crime. He has his airplane, he is simply "out" some numbers in a counter (hobbs). I paid for the gas, and the amount owed for those numbers is disputed here. I told him I did not get the utility out of the plane, which was the reason for the rental. The product offered for rent was obviously not fit for purpose. No-one would say that plane was airworthy with the other mag hanging half-off, and the prop needing to be replaced within 5 hours of that.

I'm not worried about him hiring a lawyer. If he does, he's an even bigger idiot than I think right now.
 
mtuomi said:
Yeah, that's what I thought. The owner claims it's felony theft, but I'm not sure how this would be theft, larceny or any other property crime. He has his airplane, he is simply "out" some numbers in a counter (hobbs). I paid for the gas, and the amount owed for those numbers is disputed here. I told him I did not get the utility out of the plane, which was the reason for the rental. The product offered for rent was obviously not fit for purpose. No-one would say that plane was airworthy with the other mag hanging half-off, and the prop needing to be replaced within 5 hours of that.

I'm not worried about him hiring a lawyer. If he does, he's an even bigger idiot than I think right now.
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The owner can claim what he wants, but the DA is gonna laugh at him, he's delusional.:lol:
 
mtuomi said:
Exactly. I'm sure karma bites them in the a** eventually.

I'm not familiar what kind of process is going on with the police though, maybe someone here knows better. The owner sent a message saying the deputy sheriff has been notified and is coming after me with a felony charge.

I got a call from the sheriff, who wanted to hear my side of the story. I told him, and he seemed to understand what was going on. He said he'll call the owner back and let me know, but I haven't heard anything yet.

No clue what happens next...
Click to expand...

Here's a suitable reply:
i0d9q.jpg
 
Henning said:
The guy has his airplane, the Sherriff will most likely tell him this is a civil matter and to hire a lawyer. On the odd chance that he does, figure out your counter suit billing, hotel rooms, rental cars, extra meals on the road, and vacation time lost.
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This. In fact, as soon as he said it was a rental and he had it back I would have told him that it was a civil matter, not criminal. Further, my return call to him (after getting your side) would not have been very cordial after I realized he was trying to use law enforcement to do his dirty work (I am guessing he "forgot" to mention some details in his initial report)...
 
Omalley1537 said:
This. In fact, as soon as he said it was a rental and he had it back I would have told him that it was a civil matter, not criminal. Further, my return call to him (after getting your side) would not have been very cordial after I realized he was trying to use law enforcement to do his dirty work (I am guessing he "forgot" to mention some details in his initial report)...
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I guess he knows the sheriff. He called me within like 5 minutes...
 
True. Or he may have given the sheriff a totally bogus story which left out his own culpability. Happens frequently.
 
Omalley1537 said:
True. Or he may have given the sheriff a totally bogus story which left out his own culpability. Happens frequently.
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The sheriff did seem to be surprised when I said I had to make not one, but two emergency/precautionary landings in the plane...

I hope I hear if the sheriff route goes anywhere before I leave the country on Monday. If he decides to pursue this matter through courts privately, that's fine by me, I know how to play that game. But I don't have time really to deal with a sheriff, 8000 miles away.
 
mtuomi said:
The sheriff did seem to be surprised when I said I had to make not one, but two emergency/precautionary landings in the plane...

I hope I hear if the sheriff route goes anywhere before I leave the country on Monday. If he decides to pursue this matter through courts privately, that's fine by me, I know how to play that game. But I don't have time really to deal with a sheriff, 8000 miles away.
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If you haven't been arrested yet, it's not likely to go anywhere, no crime was committed, and lots of places Felony Theft has a $1500 threshold. There's no DA going to take it on though, it's a loser and unless the judge is in the family or it's his plane on leaseback he'd give the DA crap for bringing it to court.
 
Henning said:
If you haven't been arrested yet, it's not likely to go anywhere, no crime was committed, and lots of places Felony Theft has a $1500 threshold. There's no DA going to take it on though, it's a loser and unless the judge is in the family or it's his plane on leaseback he'd give the DA crap for bringing it to court.
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In South Carolina, it's actually $2000 it seems. (S.C. Code Ann. § 16-13-30(A).)
Anything under 2k is a misdemeanor.
 
mtuomi said:
In South Carolina, it's actually $2000 it seems. (S.C. Code Ann. § 16-13-30(A).)
Anything under 2k is a misdemeanor.
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Yeah, I wouldnt be sweating it. About the only thing he can do to you (he will lose any suit he files) is report you to the credit bureaus, and I'm not sure he can do that.:dunno:
 
Henning said:
Yeah, I wouldnt be sweating it. About the only thing he can do to you (he will lose any suit he files) is report you to the credit bureaus, and I'm not sure he can do that.:dunno:
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Doubt he can do it. Only paperwork we've done is a one-page "rental agreement" I filled last December for the first trip I've done with this plane.

This is very much identical to something like, if I rented a car from Rent-a-****box. The car breaks down, and they make me pay for the days the car was in the workshop, and my expenses I incurred when making alternative arrangements.
 
mtuomi said:
Doubt he can do it. Only paperwork we've done is a one-page "rental agreement" I filled last December for the first trip I've done with this plane.

This is very much identical to something like, if I rented a car from Rent-a-****box. The car breaks down, and they make me pay for the days the car was in the workshop, and my expenses I incurred when making alternative arrangements.
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Oh, if it comes to sue/counter sue, you would win. The contract is actually not valid as the product didn't meet the requirements to fulfill it.
 
Henning said:
Oh, if it comes to sue/counter sue, you would win. The contract is actually not valid as the product didn't meet the requirements to fulfill it.
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Yeah, in Europe there would be the fit/suitable for purpose consideration when assuming responsibility. Not sure how the US law works reg. that.

What really baffles me is, that he is technically only out around 16 hours of engine/prop time. That shouldn't even register as a rounding error in his running costs. I was willing to pay net to him around $600 (10 hours of hobbs less gas/oil bought). That $600 for 16 hours would leave him in profit. (I'm pretty sure its more than the maintenance costs for that time for an Arrow would be).
So, instead of taking the money I offered, he decided to start calling me names, involving the sheriff, and in the end lost a customer who rents that plane around 40 hours a year, and as proven now, looks after it.
I would've rented this plane enough to pay for the "lost" income many times over. Now they simply ****ed me off big time. Very weird customer service.

I'm guessing business isn't exactly flourishing for S&S Aviation in Winnsboro, SC. They have a ratty Seneca I, which engine they just had to overhaul twice. I'm guessing every penny counts for them right now.
 
I wouldn't pay them a damn cent. Their lack of maintenance almost got you killed twice now. You actually did them a huge favor by saving their plane twice.
 
The only time I had a rental fail and require out-station repair, the Owner called me, apologized personally for the (maintenance-induced) failure, and offered to compensate for my out-of-pocket expenses (which I was fortunately able to mitigate almost completely through the kindness of friends).
 
mtuomi said:
Yeah, in Europe there would be the fit/suitable for purpose consideration when assuming responsibility. Not sure how the US law works reg. that.

What really baffles me is, that he is technically only out around 16 hours of engine/prop time. That shouldn't even register as a rounding error in his running costs. I was willing to pay net to him around $600 (10 hours of hobbs less gas/oil bought). That $600 for 16 hours would leave him in profit. (I'm pretty sure its more than the maintenance costs for that time for an Arrow would be).
So, instead of taking the money I offered, he decided to start calling me names, involving the sheriff, and in the end lost a customer who rents that plane around 40 hours a year, and as proven now, looks after it.
I would've rented this plane enough to pay for the "lost" income many times over. Now they simply ****ed me off big time. Very weird customer service.

I'm guessing business isn't exactly flourishing for S&S Aviation in Winnsboro, SC. They have a ratty Seneca I, which engine they just had to overhaul twice. I'm guessing every penny counts for them right now.
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Same here, the product has to be suitable for the advertised purpose.
 
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