Loss of power over the mountains

bflynn

bflynn

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Brian Flynn
Ok - the airbus thread got me thinking - what is the best to do in that situation? Loss of power, over the mountains.

Obviously we're all looking for a nice pretty meadow, perhaps next to a bar full of pretty ladies and/or handsome men. Perhaps a road long enough to consider. But barring the ideal scenario, what do you choose? Trees or no trees? Up slope, down slope, cross slope? Auger in to get it over with quickly?
 
In that situation, they could have glided like 90 miles. They could have turned away from the mountains if they had control.

If it were me in my airplane, I would have pulled the chute.
 
Up slope landing if no alternatives. Downslope escape if you have some altitude. You're much better off with warmer weather and you're closer to civilization.

In the high mountains, it's not unusual to find a flat glacial valley at high altitudes, and that's a much better alternative than a mountainside. There are some surprisingly good emergency landing spots way up there.

If there is space between the trees, aim between them. If not, aim for the tops. If there is a SMALL river, it may make sense to aim for that instead, but they are often much deeper than they appear. But if there are sandbars around without too much debris, that's great.

Keep in mind that the emergency is not over at touchdown. You have to be found, too. ELTs can very easily break in a crash, and you may be too injured to walk out.

Ed, in high mountains, you may have VERY little time to escape from anything. The PA28 that went down last summer at Mt. Whitney reported 45 seconds between prop failure and his crash. He landed upslope above the treeline at 11000 feet. Broke ribs, nose and ankle, but survived.
 
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I'll still take down slope. Less of an abrupt stop. All the "mountains" in my no-refuel range, there is no treeline. It's all trees to the summits.

45 seconds is a long time.
 
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I'll take the bar and pretty lady scenario :cheers:
 
Well, in that case, cross at 10,000 and glide out in case of trouble.

The stop is just as abrupt because it's going to be a rock or a tree, not gravity, that stops you. It's just much harder to be precise with the slope going down. Downslope behaves very similarly to a tailwind landing. Now, if it's a BIG slope, all the options suck. In that case, aim for the bottom, parallel to the slope.
 
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Trees give a little bit more than rocks though. There's a reason ski jumpers don't land on an upslope.
 
Something I heard from a long time mtn pilot that made sense.

Look for anything man-made. Preferably a small road, or graded field. The contour that humans make in the wild typically will smooth out whatever was there before. So I though about it and he was right. People plow fields smooth, and grade roads smooth so that vehicles can get over them without damage. Certainly, a winding mtn road is hardly better than the alternative, but at least if you survive, there's a chance you can walk/crawl out, or that someone will drive along eventually.

There are still plenty of places in the US without much man-made tracking, but if it's there, it's going to be better than whatever surrounds it, or there would have been no reason for someone to grade/till/plow it.
 
You could spend a lot of time dreaming up imaginary solutions, but, when the fan stops, you have to deal with the cards you are dealt with.

I fly in mountains over 10K, and are usually in narrow valleys with rivers in the bottom. For the most part, your decision is a choice between a few degrees right or left, what you can see.

There aren't a lot of man made options, you deal with what nature gives you.
 
docmirror said:
Something I heard from a long time mtn pilot that made sense.

Look for anything man-made. Preferably a small road, or graded field. The contour that humans make in the wild typically will smooth out whatever was there before. So I though about it and he was right. People plow fields smooth, and grade roads smooth so that vehicles can get over them without damage. Certainly, a winding mtn road is hardly better than the alternative, but at least if you survive, there's a chance you can walk/crawl out, or that someone will drive along eventually.

There are still plenty of places in the US without much man-made tracking, but if it's there, it's going to be better than whatever surrounds it, or there would have been no reason for someone to grade/till/plow it.
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+1 for near a road, Here is an example...

http://soaringcafe.com/2013/06/the-end-of-the-road-for-ta-part-ii-the-crash-report/

Brian
 
bflynn said:
Ok - the airbus thread got me thinking - what is the best to do in that situation? Loss of power, over the mountains.
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the first thing I'm going to do is say to myself: shoulda got the twin
 
EdFred said:
Trees give a little bit more than rocks though. There's a reason ski jumpers don't land on an upslope.
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Ski jumpers can't flare, at least not in the same way.

They don't land on concrete runways either.

If you flare uphill from best glide, you will have a very short float and will contact just where you intend. If you flare downhill, you'll spread it all out, just like what happens when you land with power or with a tailwind.

And you may not be able to SEE the slope if it is descending, as it will be below your nose. There could be some really bad stuff there. Not a problem upslope unless it's really much too steep to do anything sensible.
 
MAKG1 said:
Ski jumpers can't flare, at least not in the same way.

They don't land on concrete runways either.

If you flare uphill from best glide, you will have a very short float and will contact just where you intend. If you flare downhill, you'll spread it all out, just like what happens when you land with power or with a tailwind.

And you may not be able to SEE the slope if it is descending, as it will be below your nose. There could be some really bad stuff there. Not a problem upslope unless it's really much too steep to do anything sensible.
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Which is exactly what I want to do. Energy dissipation.
 
Find a bowl, preferably full of snow... Upslope and stall it 1 foot above the surface... Do it right with a steep enough slope and the forward energy will be in the low 30's..... Should be a "walk away" crash landing.......

Only trick is to not set off an avalanche...:yikes::yikes::redface:
 
N801BH said:
Find a bowl, preferably full of snow... Upslope and stall it 1 foot above the surface... Do it right with a steep enough slope and the forward energy will be in the low 30's..... Should be a "walk away" crash landing.......

Only trick is to not set off an avalanche...:yikes::yikes::redface:
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The problem with upslope is judging the slope and having enough energy to get the nose up where it needs to be. It's not like we practice landing on steep slopes...
 
Clark1961 said:
The problem with upslope is judging the slope and having enough energy to get the nose up where it needs to be. It's not like we practice landing on steep slopes...
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Idaho backcountry will keep you on your toes.... And in practice too...:yikes:..

Mile Hi comes to mind...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
 
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N801BH said:
Idaho backcountry will keep you on your toes.... And in practice too...:yikes:..

Mile Hi comes to mind...
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Big Creek is on a pretty good hill...

still, I'm guessing 99% of pilots aren't going to get it right going up a significant slope...
 
I believe people worry too much about it and ignore the more relevant questions. Can you put the aircraft down on a spot with minimum energy and without stalling it? If you can do that then you have a good chance of finding a survivable place to put it down man-made or otherwise. Much of my flying is in and around the Rockies and I'll take any mountain scenario over downtown Dallas.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I believe people worry too much about it and ignore the more relevant questions. Can you put the aircraft down on a spot with minimum energy and without stalling it? If you can do that then you have a good chance of finding a survivable place to put it down man-made or otherwise. Much of my flying is in and around the Rockies and I'll take any mountain scenario over downtown Dallas.
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Yup.... Me too.....
 
Alexb2000 said:
I believe people worry too much about it and ignore the more relevant questions. Can you put the aircraft down on a spot with minimum energy and without stalling it? If you can do that then you have a good chance of finding a survivable place to put it down man-made or otherwise. Much of my flying is in and around the Rockies and I'll take any mountain scenario over downtown Dallas.
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I'll take over downtown Dallas at 12,000' over 12,000' over the Rockies...

(were there enough 'over's in that?)
 
Clark1961 said:
I'll take over downtown Dallas at 12,000' over 12,000' over the Rockies...

(were there enough 'over's in that?)
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Roger, OVER...:D:D:D...

Altho 12,000 OVER the rockies will put you at 26,000msl.... From there I could glide to the flatlands on each side of the rockies...;);)
 
Clark1961 said:
I'll take over downtown Dallas at 12,000' over 12,000' over the Rockies...

(were there enough 'over's in that?)
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Important point.

Quite a few airports are in gliding distance from that altitude, including DFW with its gazillion runways.
 
N801BH said:
Roger, OVER...:D:D:D...

Altho 12,000 OVER the rockies will put you at 26,000msl.... From there I could glide to the flatlands on each side of the rockies...;);)
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that was all msl ya picky basterd
 
N801BH said:
Them are fighting words.....

Meet me in the bike rakes after school...... And don't bring any of your friends...:D:D:D:D
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Ha! my friend colt goes wherever I go!
 
Clark1961 said:
Big Creek is on a pretty good hill...

still, I'm guessing 99% of pilots aren't going to get it right going up a significant slope...
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The slope on Big Creek and the slope on Mile High are not in the same category.

Doesn't take much of a slope, up or down, to completely change the touchdown point.
 
I've gone through that same exact thought exercise while flying over the Desolation Wilderness before. Sheer granite pinnacles with nearly vertical faces for dozens of miles, and they all terminate to V crevices at the bottom. I'm not sure an engine out there would be survivable in any case. A downslope landing would for all intents and purposes be a nosedive, and an upslope landing would likely be unachievable, and you would just slide back down the rock face in to an nosedive anyway after you stopped.
 

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Engine quits over the mountains.. I know few mountains that are not logged and that will give you roads, find one and put the aircraft on it, EMTs will have a shorter walk.

That is the whole reasoning behind flying the passes over the range, it may be farther to fly but easier than trying to glide back to civilization.
 
N801BH said:
Find a bowl, preferably full of snow... Upslope and stall it 1 foot above the surface... Do it right with a steep enough slope and the forward energy will be in the low 30's..... Should be a "walk away" crash landing.......

Only trick is to not set off an avalanche...:yikes::yikes::redface:
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I think the real trick in this scenario is to step out of the door just as you come to a stop so you don't have to slide down the snow into the trees at the bottom of the bowl while strapped in your seat in the plane!
 
The Frank Church Wilderness made me squirm in the seat a bit. 3 million acres with no roads. "Bear bait"
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The Frank Church Wilderness made me squirm in the seat a bit. 3 million acres with no roads. "Bear bait"
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When it makes you nervous, don't go there. :) Would you rather fly 2-3 more hours, or walk for 2-3 weeks?
 
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