LOP Noob...where to start?

Fearless Tower

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Fearless Tower
Hi, my name is Andrew and I'm a LOP Noob.

Okay, so looks like I've got a deal on my next ride: a sweet B55 Baron.

Now, I've read a fair amount on the LOP vs ROP debate and have long considered myself on the LOP side. Only thing is, about 90% of my flying has been with carbureted engines and the few fuel injected planes I have flown had very minimal engine instrumentation.

The Baron has the standard IO-470s with Gami injectors and a JPI EDM 760.

So....any recommendations on where to begin in order to take advantage of my new equipment?
 
Start with the levers that have red knobs
 
Search for some John deakin articles as a good starting point.
 
You just missed an excellent webinar on the subject 2 days ago:

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=2274677932001

I thought I had it pretty well understood then learned some more. The graphs put it all in perspective for me. Hope it's useful for you.

Lots of good information, explanation and advice, as usual, from Mike. There is a tight group of A&Ps that like to bad mouth him here on this forum but, hopefully, you'll find his approach to be well documented and based in solid theory and experience. His seminars at Osh are packed and run over time, for a good reason. He also manages around 1 or more in 10 Cirrus' in the world, among many other aircraft.

PS: plenty more good videos listed below this one.
 
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You have everything you need already. Just get it where you want it in cruise, pull the red knobs back until the EGT peaks, then keep pulling them back until the hottest EGT is about 50F cooler than it's max value. Some fiddling may be required, and you might have to adjust a prop slightly but it really is that simple.

I would start with a 65% power setting until you get comfy cause you can't do any harm at 65% power. Don't dawdle as you lean the engine as you go through peak EGT, just keep pulling.
 
Read the JPI manual. The read it again. And again. Then let's discuss.
 

:thumbsup:

I was going to suggest that.

The JPI is a useful tool. Basically, 50F LOP is about where you want to be on the leanest cylinder. The JPI has a "lean find" tool that some people like, I don't particularly. If you pull the mixtures until you feel a slight decrease in power, that's about 50F LOP. Adjust as needed for roughness/too slow/high CHTs.
 
You just missed an excellent webinar on the subject 2 days ago:

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=2274677932001

I thought I had it pretty well understood then learned some more. The graphs put it all in perspective for me. Hope it's useful for you.

Lots of good information, explanation and advice, as usual, from Mike. There is a tight group of A&Ps that like to bad mouth him here on this forum but, hopefully, you'll find his approach to be well documented and based in solid theory and experience. His seminars at Osh are packed and run over time, for a good reason. He also manages around 1 or more in 10 Cirrus' in the world, among many other aircraft.

PS: plenty more good videos listed below this one.

I've seen that presentation before. I think it is about a year old. It taught me a lot and I still need to watch it again. See the below link for the upcoming advance leaning webinar:

https://www.savvymx.com/index.php/webinar
 
Well you've got the gadgets so just put your geek on and get on with it. The first thing you'll probably want to do is calculate your GAMI spread which is explained here with all the associated forms and charts.

Be aware of the cautions though. Most engine analyzers like the JPI and EDM have something like 70 functions and sub-functions that are accessed by two little buttons. They are also usually located somewhere down near your left kneecap and, as you learn how to use it there will be a lot of "What the.....??" or "Why's it doing that?" moments. The result is that there are pilots flying around up there with their head buried down below the glare shield in deep concentration of things other than what's going on outside.

So a safety pilot is a good idea when you're going through this initial learning curve. Just don't let both of you get wrapped up in that little gadget! :eek:
 
Good stuff in here already -- I'll make a note that you should not initially experiment with LOP with family friends or nonpilot passengers aboard -- most engines which haven't done the GAMIjector swaps run fairly rough on the LOP side, and often VERY rough at less than 50dLOP -- including a lot of stock IO470Ls like on the B55. (a lot I have flown start getting unhappy at the 40-60dLOP point. Then again, I've flown some that are smooth down in the 150-200 degree LOP point - YMMV)

The stumbling of the engine can be very disconcerting and may make future passengers very uncomfortable with your new toy. You may dislike it enough to want to go back to ROP -- but stick with it, it's worth the toil to get dialled in properly. :)

The APS online course is a great start for the $400. If they still have that stupid no-backsies limitation on the new HTML5 version, then get a free screen/video capture software utility and snap a copy for yourself to review later. You'll want it.

$0.02

- Mike
 
Mike. The OP post 1 indicates that both engines have GAMI already.
 
With a injected continental, before you reduce power to cruise, set the rough fuel flow for your altitude (the Beech fuel flow gauges have these marked). Once you're at cruise setting, you can do whatever you want with the red lever from full rich to so lean as to misfire as far as Continental is concerned.

Follow your JPI manual to set the lean (ROP or LOP as you desire). With GAMIs or factory balanced injectors, there should hardly be any movement of the mixture control from the "first cylinder to peak" (RICHEST on the display) to the "last cylinder to peak" (LEANEST).

Continental puts best power just to the rich side of peak, best economy to the lean side. I try to set mine at 25 lean of peak in my IO-550.
 
Geez Mike, you take all the fun out of it. I remember flying in AdamB's Trinnie at night over water with a non-pilot passenger in back and playing with LOP and engine roughness. She handled it well.
 
If your JPI has digital fuel flow data, for 65% power, simply set the fuel flow to 11.3 GPH per side. Use 10.5 GPH for 60%, 9.6 GPH for 55% and so on. Although the analog gages are not particularly accurate, they are very repeatable, so I use the analog gage to preset the fuel flow and if needed fine tune with the digital flow indication. I don't use my JPI for leaning. After you have gotten the same fuel flow 1000 or so times by using the temperatures, peak and other BS, you learn it is a waste of effort. FF = power when LOP, well actually FF X 14.9 = HP. I normally use full throttle for cruise and select an RPM that will produce at least a little above the desired power if I was running ROP, that way I know the power value by setting the FF will be LOP. If I am operating at altitudes 10000 feet or higher, I will increase the RPM so that I can run LOP. Regardless, at these fuel flow settings, the engine will be operating LOP at the indicated power or if it is ROP because you are too high, then the power will be ROP, but at a lower power than indicated. bottom line is that these fuel flows will never be above the power values indicated whether ROP or LOP.
 
I use this as my reference for LOP ops (Hopefully no issues with posting this):
qugeheta.jpg
 
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You just missed an excellent webinar on the subject 2 days ago:

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=2274677932001

Solid presentation but,

If one were crazy enough to drop a lit match in a bucket of 100LL gasoline chances are very high a trip to the burn unit will follow. Unless the ambient temperature is lower than -20 degrees F or the experiment is being conducted in a chamber at some multiple of standard pressure the gasoline will have begun to evaporate immediately upon being poured in to the bucket. If the bucket is not agitated the vapors will form a concentration gradient from almost pure hydrocarbons right above the surface of the liquid to the makeup of the surrounding atmosphere at some other height above the liquid. The function that describes this gradient will change depending upon the ambient pressure, temperature, time since the gas was poured, geometry of the bucket, etc. What is important is that somewhere between the extents of atmosphere and pure hydrocarbons a layer that is a highly combustible mixture of hydrocarbons and air will exist. The match will likely never reach the liquid gasoline to be extinguished as it will ignite this combustible mixture layer as it drops through it. I have seen this experimentally demonstrated with many hydrocarbons even No. 2 diesel, and Jet-A will behave this way at low enough pressures or high enough temperatures. Neither of them will behave this way at any normal atmospheric temperatures or pressures, but if the bucket of Jet-A happens to be sitting on an active flow of lava it will behave just like the 100LL does at 100 degrees F.

All the statements about mixture for startup could benefit from additional clarification and explanation. Both so operators understand why priming or choking is needed and consequently why excessive prime is detrimental. No matter the temperature an internal combustion engine needs only to have a combination of air and fuel within the range of combustible ratios present in the cylinder to run. So if I had my controls set for a mixture that ran perfect when I shut the engine off hot why will the engine not cold start at that same mixture? The carburetor or fuel injection system will be happily metering out the same amount of fuel they were when the engine last ran and while the air going in will likely be more dense as it is not now being preheated on its way through the induction system, that in and of itself, is not enough to create a mixture too lean to support combustion. In fact fuel is being removed from the intake charge by all the cold surfaces the mixture comes is contact with just like humidity from the air condensing on a cold can of soda. This evaporation temporarily steals this fuel by making it unavailable for combustion. However this fuel does not disappear and as soon as the mixture has been enrichened enough for the engine to start this fuel will go back in to the mixture both from increased velocity through the induction path and the rising temperatures. One of the places fuel heavily condenses at initial startup is the cylinder walls themselves thereby diluting the oil present and producing a fuel oil mix of dramatically lower lubricity leading to increased ring wear. Use only the very minimum amount of enrichment necessary to get the engine running if you are priming and choking so heavily that the engine is running smooth from dead cold through warmup that is a sure indication of too much fuel. The best indications of minimum enrichment for cold start is an engine that is initially barely running perhaps even missing with a decidely flat exhaust note and no smoke from the exhaust.

In principal I agree with the contention that high CHT readings do not represent a path to long cylinder life, but the presentation neglects to consider a large number of variables and never even proposes the mechanism linking high CHT and increased cylinder wear. The data I have seen leads me to belive the mechanism is two fold:

1)Neither Lycoming nor Continental nor anybody else has invented a material or method to ensure pistons and cylinders will maintain optimum size and geometry through out the wide range of temperatures an air cooled engine is exposed to, liquid cooled engines are designed to run in a very narrow temperature band specifically to avoid this as of yet insurmountable problem.

2)Many operators continue to use archaic mineral oils in their aircraft engines, eventhough much data exists showing mineral oils experience substantial reductions in lubricity at or below the temperatures known to be present on the cylinder walls at the top of the bore.

Given one and two above the poor piston ring pack has its work cut out for it trying to effectively seal a piston of varying size and roundness operating in a bore of varying size and roundness all while being lubricated by an oil operating in and out of a temperature range where it can not perform effectively.

Any time specific engine operating criteria are being recommended on a blanket basis it makes me skeptical. Even if the presentation were only speaking to a single specific engine model inumerable factors related to the sensors (type, brand, construction), and their installation(location, heat transfer compound used or not, torque, electrical resistance to ground, etc, etc ,etc), would totally preclude making a blanket statement that 400 degrees on your gauge in your airplane equates to excessively hot. IE JPI directly states that their sparkplug gasket sensors usually read 50-60 degrees higher than a probe style sensor on a Lycoming engine, they also state that both Continental and lycoming engines will vary 25-50 degrees between the top sprak plug and the bottom plug so again which one is the right one?. So if one were to install both variations on the same engine one readout may show all CHTs around the presentations ideal 380 degrees while the other gauge is indicating all are about 430 degrees, so which is it ideal or in the red zone? I have also seen in the lab many times where contact temperature sensor data consistency between a pair of seemingly identical installations is foiled by things as innocuous as the type and amount of heat transfer compound used and the installation torque.
 
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I use this as my reference for LOP ops (Hopefully no issues with posting this):
qugeheta.jpg

That seems overly conservative. When I flew an O-320 on the Warrior I would run that sucker WOT and set RPM with the red knob. Surely I was somewhere close to peak EGT at 70% and all the compressions seemed to be going up with use. I have no idea what the CHTs would have been but after 220hrs the cylinders weren't showing any issues.

I'd say as long as you keep the CHTs below 450, throwing a wag in there to compensate for the fact the sensors might in effect read high, you aren't going to fail a cylinder head catastrophically by function of that operating practice. I've read enough about exhaust valves to come to the conclusion that problems with them has more to do with manufacturing defects than EGT/CHT operating band philosophy of operation.

Then again, I had no instrumentation to monitor these presumptions with, the engine just kept purring annual after annual. Maybe the Lyco jugs are indeed superior to the Contis, but I'm still not convinced the Contis would fail by merely running @ 70% and leaning to rough then bump to smooth. :dunno:

To each their own.

EDIT: To add a question. Anybody ever figure out what the hell is "lean to rough, then bump to smooth" in the EGT scale anyways?.. Peak, X ROP, X LOP???
 
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That seems overly conservative. When I flew an O-320 on the Warrior I would run that sucker WOT and set RPM with the red knob. Surely I was somewhere close to peak EGT at 70% and all the compressions seemed to be going up with use. I have no idea what the CHTs would have been but after 220hrs the cylinders weren't showing any issues.

An O-320 is not a TSIO-520. GAMI is simplifying it to be pretty much universal.

O-320 cylinders you almost can't kill, and 220 hours isn't long. Continental cylinders aren't as good, that's well established. Add higher power engines to the mix...
 
Use the "Big Pull"

That means that after you've figured out once, by slow leaning, how far to pull the mixture to get the desired degrees-lean-of-peak, you don't want to do it slowly again. Leaning it slowly causes you to spend time in the "red box" where the pressures are high.

Instead, make a mark (like a pencil mark on the throttle quadrant) to show where you want the mixture knob after you lean it. Then the next time you lean, just pull it quickly to the pencil mark. After that, you can make a little adjustment to get the desired EGT. This way you stay out of the red box except for a second.

Google these words -- LOP big pull -- and you'll read plenty about it.
 
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Use the "Big Pull"

That means that after you've figured out once, by slow leaning, how far to pull the mixture to get the desired degrees-lean-of-peak, you don't want to do it slow again. Leaning it slowly causes you to spend time in the "red box" where the pressures are high. Instead, make a mark (like a pencil mark on the throttle quadrant) to show where you want the mixture knob usually. Then the next time you lean, just pull it quickly to the pencil mark.

Google LOP big pull and you'll read plenty about it.

No need for a pencil mark, although nothing wrong with it, either. If you have a mechanical fuel flow gauge and know where it normally sits, then pulling back to a number on it quickly becomes quite simple with practice.
 
No need for a pencil mark, although nothing wrong with it, either. If you have a mechanical fuel flow gauge and know where it normally sits, then pulling back to a number on it quickly becomes quite simple with practice.

That sounds fine, too. Just as long as you do the Big Pull.
 
That sounds fine, too. Just as long as you do the Big Pull.

Really only matters on certain engines. IO-470s less so. TIO-540-J2BDs more so.
 
To add a question. Anybody ever figure out what the hell is "lean to rough, then bump to smooth" in the EGT scale anyways?.. Peak, X ROP, X LOP???

I am sure that depends on one's "GAMI Spread" (the variation in fuel/air ratios between cylinders). If one has unbalanced distribution between cylinders, then "roughness" will appear at a richer mix overall (as a cylinder or two drops off line) than it will if one has balanced distribution. If one's GAMI spread is wide enough, the danger is that even when one or two cylinders are no longer firing, that the richer of its cousins might still be near peak EGT. It is that rich cylinder that you should worry about.

With my IO-550 (with GAMI injectors), pulling to rough and enriching to smooth puts me well LOP. I can do just that as a close approximation of where I want the mixture to be and then tweak it when I have time to.

Wells

As to the OP's question, nobody has yet mentioned attending an APS seminar, which is very worthwhile.
 
Wow, you picked a good one

I was very fortunate....I initially went after that one simply because it was located about 10 miles away from an A&P IA that I have known for a few years and used to work for Beechcraft and has over 1000 hrs flying a company type around the country.

When he told me that he rated a 35 year old airplane as an 85-90 with 100 being one straight out of the factory....it was a no-brainer!
 
I was very fortunate....I initially went after that one simply because it was located about 10 miles away from an A&P IA that I have known for a few years and used to work for Beechcraft and has over 1000 hrs flying a company type around the country.

When he told me that he rated a 35 year old airplane as an 85-90 with 100 being one straight out of the factory....it was a no-brainer!

If it's as good as it looks, that's a nice plane. If you decide to do the 430->430W upgrade, that's a simple job and about $3k. My A&Ps did it on the 310 about a year and a half ago. I think it's a worthwhile upgrade and one of the best bang for the buck deals in avionics - I like having the terrain awareness as well as vertical guidance on approaches. When the HSI goes out (I had the same one in the Aztec), that'll make a good time for an Aspen.

The 310 had an RDR-160 coupled to the old FlightMax like what this Baron has. The previous owner pulled that setup to put in his new T310R because it didn't have radar in it. I flew in it once and it makes for a very nice package. Gives you color radar, and all the other benefits of the MFD.

We also had those old Collins Nav/Coms for the #2 in the 310. I don't really like them, but they work and they're cheap to replace if you need a spare.

I bet Lance can give you some good performance numbers for a B-55 running LOP.

Welcome to the world of twin ownership! :)
 
If it's as good as it looks, that's a nice plane. If you decide to do the 430->430W upgrade, that's a simple job and about $3k. My A&Ps did it on the 310 about a year and a half ago. I think it's a worthwhile upgrade and one of the best bang for the buck deals in avionics - I like having the terrain awareness as well as vertical guidance on approaches. When the HSI goes out (I had the same one in the Aztec), that'll make a good time for an Aspen.

The 310 had an RDR-160 coupled to the old FlightMax like what this Baron has. The previous owner pulled that setup to put in his new T310R because it didn't have radar in it. I flew in it once and it makes for a very nice package. Gives you color radar, and all the other benefits of the MFD.

We also had those old Collins Nav/Coms for the #2 in the 310. I don't really like them, but they work and they're cheap to replace if you need a spare.

I bet Lance can give you some good performance numbers for a B-55 running LOP.

Welcome to the world of twin ownership! :)
I have similar thoughts.

On the avionics side, it has what I consider to be the minimum - 430, HSI and A/P. It will do everything I need it to right now and since the airframe is solid and I know everything I am up against as far as future maintenance goes (we did a full annual as the pre-buy), I should be able to save up just fine for avionics upgrades and a potential TOH if it doesn't make TBO.

Right now, I'll probably leave stuff alone for at least a year and see what I think my priorites are then. At some point, I'd like to add an Aspen PFD and I am thinking that either I will upgrade the 430 to WAAS or may consider adding a second 430W and using the standard 430 as a replacement for the old Collins COMM/NAV radios.

At some point, I'll also need a Mode S xpdr, but that is another thing that is probably better holding off on right now.
 
I have similar thoughts.

On the avionics side, it has what I consider to be the minimum - 430, HSI and A/P. It will do everything I need it to right now and since the airframe is solid and I know everything I am up against as far as future maintenance goes (we did a full annual as the pre-buy), I should be able to save up just fine for avionics upgrades and a potential TOH if it doesn't make TBO.

Right now, I'll probably leave stuff alone for at least a year and see what I think my priorites are then. At some point, I'd like to add an Aspen PFD and I am thinking that either I will upgrade the 430 to WAAS or may consider adding a second 430W and using the standard 430 as a replacement for the old Collins COMM/NAV radios.

At some point, I'll also need a Mode S xpdr, but that is another thing that is probably better holding off on right now.

I think you've got a good approach there. After flying it for a bit you'll decide what you really want to upgrade vs. not, and the other thing to remember is that, as things break, that will give you a good opportunity to upgrade.

Adding a 430W and moving the base 430 to the #2 slot I think is a good idea. Keep in mind that Garmin is about done selling 430Ws, so that means you'll end up getting a used one. Not that that's a problem, just what it'll be.

I'm holding off on the Mode S upgrade until it gets closer to the required time. I might add an ADS-B box to display through the 530/430, though.
 
Now that I have had a chance to fly the airplane a bit (almost 20 hrs), I have some more questions about this LOP stuff. It seems there is a spread between cylinders (the ability to monitor each cylinder is a new thing for me). Should I be trying to adjust the mixture to achieve 50 LOP on the hottest cylinder, or use the lean to rough, bump to smooth technique? Seems that the lean to rough, bump to smooth outs me at peak EGT on a couple cylinders.
 
Typically the advise is to get to 50 LOP on the leanest cylinder. The Lean Find function can help you there with finding what that is. However you may find yourself making adjustments based on engine roughness or CHTs. After some practice, you'll learn what fuel flow to pull straight to and you'll be pretty much where you need to be.

You also might want to experiment with RPMs and see what works best. In the 310 now, I find 2400-2500 actually works out better now for lower CHTs and smoothness.
 
Spending some time with a clean shop vac and some soapy water may help reduce the spread on the EGTs as well
 
Now that I have had a chance to fly the airplane a bit (almost 20 hrs), I have some more questions about this LOP stuff. It seems there is a spread between cylinders (the ability to monitor each cylinder is a new thing for me). Should I be trying to adjust the mixture to achieve 50 LOP on the hottest cylinder, or use the lean to rough, bump to smooth technique? Seems that the lean to rough, bump to smooth outs me at peak EGT on a couple cylinders.

For the basics I'd look for John Deakin's Pelican Post articles on LOP but keep in mind that most of them were about turbocharged engines which have somewhat different techniques than NA for LOP ops.

And by "hottest cylinder are you referring to CHT or EGT? If it's EGT you've got it all wrong, and if CHT there's a lot more to consider.

The optimal mixture in terms of degrees LOP varies with power ranging from something on the order of 80°F LOP at 75-85% of max rated power (actual power will be 5-10% less than what your POH claims for ROP) to peak or a 5-10° F LOP with 60-65% power. And the appropriate cylinder is the one that runs richest (i.e. the last to peak going from ROP to LOP or first to peak going from LOP to ROP). There's nothing significant about one cylinder's EGT vs another and it simply doesn't matter which EGT is hotter.

CHT does play a part, if your CHTs are running hot (i.e. above 380° F in cruise) you can and should deal with that by making the LOP mixture leaner.

To figure % power, estimate actual HP as gph * 14.9 for a "high compression" engine (i.e. one with a 8.4:1 compression ratio) and divide that product by the max rated power and multiply that by 100 to get percent.
 
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