(LOP) Experts Are Everywhere – The Rebuttal By John Deakin ©June, 2013

alfadog

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alfadog
Sigh...

And that sigh isn't directed at Mr. Deakin, but at things that came close to changing but didn't.
 
Makes me glad I'm flying a Continental. Continental says once you're at cruise power settings they don't care if you run full rich to so lean the engine misfires. They give two optimum points (best power which is just ROP and best economy which is on the LOP side).
 
Makes me glad I'm flying a Continental. Continental says once you're at cruise power settings they don't care if you run full rich to so lean the engine misfires. They give two optimum points (best power which is just ROP and best economy which is on the LOP side).

Well, from a practical perspective it doesn't matter whether you fly a Lycoming or a Continental for LOP, other than certain ones from each manufacturer run LOP better than others. I ran my Aztec LOP for 1,000 hours. I could have run the Navajos LOP (they would do it) but the owner of one said "If you run mine LOP I will chop your balls off."

From a philosophical perspective, there is certainly a difference between the two.
 
Ted, perhaps to his credit, Jim Doebler at Lycoming engine school decided to not discuss LOP ops at all in the 2 courses I attended earlier this year.

A number of us were looking forward to a LOP discussion but never got it. Per a comment you made to me before I went, perhaps that was best.
 
The LOP technique certainly worked well for me when I owned a Bonanza (IO-470-N, GAMI and monitor-equipped). The engine ran smoothly, clean, cool and economically.

Now I have two airplanes with smaller, carbureted four-bangers with uneven fuel distribution and limited (if any) instrumentation. So it's back to the ol' "lean to rough then richen back to smooth" technique.

(Aside: I have to agree with Deakin's comments on present-day manufacturer quality control. From what I've learned about the 2007-build O-200-A in my Sport Cub, I won't fly behind a post-2000 TCM engine that hasn't been taken apart by a reputable outside shop. Fortunately (?) many have been.)

:mad2:
 
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Sadly this has really very little to do with LOP operations, it's just the re-emergence of a 13 year old ****ing contest.
 
Mr. Deakin lost me in his arguement when he stated "Neither company has the expertise to operate their engines".
 
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Now I have two airplanes with smaller, carbureted four-bangers with uneven fuel distribution and limited (if any) instrumentation. So it's back to the ol' "lean to rough then richen back to smooth" technique.

Where do believe that leaves you on the graph? lean or rich of peak?
 
Lycoming says that you can do whatever you want with the mixture in their normally-aspirated engines if at or below 75% power. They don't tell you to run ROP.

Dan
 
Sigh...

And that sigh isn't directed at Mr. Deakin, but at things that came close to changing but didn't.
I'm curious how accurate are John's comments regarding Lycoming's management being in opposition to engineering on the LOP thing. It is hard to believe that knowledgeable engine designers could ignore the data that's highly supportive of the benefits of LOP. Now that you're no longer employed there, are you able to comment on this?
 
Ted, perhaps to his credit, Jim Doebler at Lycoming engine school decided to not discuss LOP ops at all in the 2 courses I attended earlier this year.

A number of us were looking forward to a LOP discussion but never got it. Per a comment you made to me before I went, perhaps that was best.

That's an interesting change from when I took the course, where he just said "Don't do it" and I didn't want to start a debate on it.

I'm curious how accurate are John's comments regarding Lycoming's management being in opposition to engineering on the LOP thing. It is hard to believe that knowledgeable engine designers could ignore the data that's highly supportive of the benefits of LOP. Now that you're no longer employed there, are you able to comment on this?

Keep in mind that all of these engines were originally designed and certified in the days when fuel was cheap and engine instrumentation in aircraft was abismal. Plus, they didn't want warranty claims or other complaints for roughness. So it was easier to tell people to run ROP. Management liked fewer complaints and engineering was comprised of non-pilots so they didn't care, and fuel was cheap so operators I don't think cared much, either.

I would not say that management and engineering are at odds on the LOP issue. My belief is that neither of them care tofay, and it's easier to keep the status quo than to try to change anything. I don't think they're losing any sales because of their position on LOP.
 
And the debate continues.buy a fades engine and let the computer worry about it.
 
And the debate continues.buy a fades engine and let the computer worry about it.

Actually that's what I think is the best solution. Has the added benefit of fewer things for the pilot to worry about and screw up. Engine will run the way it will run, fuel burn will be what it will be. End of story.

Of course, there are negatives associated (the biggest one being cost), but on the whole I think it's the best solution.
 
When I am out by myself in Fat Albert The Apache I'm usually running 50%-55% power and leaned back till they shake like a wet dog.
Passengers don't like that so I will go slightly rough then gently sweeten em up till smooooooth.
For cross country I will use the EGT to find the peak and then back off just slightly, maybe 25 degrees.
Right wrong or indifferent it has worked for me for decades and thousands of hours.
No pizzin contest here cause I don't care about anyone's opinion but my own.
 
When I am out by myself in Fat Albert The Apache I'm usually running 50%-55% power and leaned back till they shake like a wet dog.
Passengers don't like that so I will go slightly rough then gently sweeten em up till smooooooth.
For cross country I will use the EGT to find the peak and then back off just slightly, maybe 25 degrees.
Right wrong or indifferent it has worked for me for decades and thousands of hours.
No pizzin contest here cause I don't care about anyone's opinion but my own.

Pretty much.
 
LOP is great, fantastic, super, fuel saving, results in fewer deposits and cleaner gums and fresher breath - what it does not do is make you fly faster. It makes you fly slower.

Why you ask? Because internal pressure on the pistons is something called 'power.' 'Power' is what make the prop take a bite of more air with a better angle in a constant speed prop. More power = greater speed.

If I wanted to fly my Comanche at a TAS of 140, I would have bought an Arrow or a 182RG.

You want the 'benefits' of LOP - ok - fine. Personally, I want to see 160kts TAS. Thats why I bought the airplane in the first.

LOP is all well and good if you have a turbocharger and can restore some of the lost airspeed using pressurized intake - but you'll still burn the same about of fuel to 160kts ROP as you will LOP - -it is not possible to generate the energy necessary without burning the fuel to do so . . . .

So LOP gains you nothing but more hours on the Tach. . . .
 
Joe -

What settings are you running to get 160?

I normally run WOT, 2300 RPM, and leaned to about 12.4-13.5 depending on altitude and get 155+/-2.
 
The "I didn't buy this airplane to go slow" question is one that often comes up. It all comes down to trade-offs. Most folks realize the couple knots you lose are pretty irrelevant for speed and block times but very significant for cost savings.
 
Joe -

What settings are you running to get 160?

I normally run WOT, 2300 RPM, and leaned to about 12.4-13.5 depending on altitude and get 155+/-2.

160 for me is under 2800# [as in just me, fuel and what bags I need]

2500 and WOT between 6000 and 8500 . . . that will get me 160 usually.

I usually cruise at 2425pm because thats the smoothest setting for my engine - so I show more like 156/157 usually -

but temps not too high, cowl flaps halfway closed and leaned to close to peak and I show 160. . . . but more consistently I get 157 . . .
 
I also forgot you had a C, and I'm carb'd, so that's the 5kt difference.
 
The "I didn't buy this airplane to go slow" question is one that often comes up. It all comes down to trade-offs. Most folks realize the couple knots you lose are pretty irrelevant for speed and block times but very significant for cost savings.

I can go LOP above 6500 to 11gph and I'm showing 138ktas usually.

Thats a 20kt loss. Add in a 20 kt head wind [when was the last time you found yourself with a tail wind?] and I've lost 25% of my ground speed and only gained a 18% reduction in fuel burn. That is not a good trade off. . . .

There are times where I have gone LOP wih a 25-30kt TW component - then I'm seeing 170kts over the ground 0 and the difference in arrival time is fairly small but turn it around - and pretty any wind except a direct tw slows you down a little bit - YMMV - thats why different folks do things different ways . . .
 
I can go LOP above 6500 to 11gph and I'm showing 138ktas usually.

Thats a 20kt loss. Add in a 20 kt head wind [when was the last time you found yourself with a tail wind?] and I've lost 25% of my ground speed and only gained a 18% reduction in fuel burn. That is not a good trade off. . . .

There are times where I have gone LOP wih a 25-30kt TW component - then I'm seeing 170kts over the ground 0 and the difference in arrival time is fairly small but turn it around - and pretty any wind except a direct tw slows you down a little bit - YMMV - thats why different folks do things different ways . . .

If you're seeing a 20 kt loss, then you're likely leaning out too far. In the 310 it's more like a 5 kt loss.

The issue with the Lycoming parallel valve engines is they don't always run LOP great. I did it for 1,000 hours in my Aztec (pretty much the same engine as your Comanche) at about 21 gph combined, but I also ran at 2300 RPM. So you might also just have an engine that doesn't like it.
 
I can go LOP above 6500 to 11gph and I'm showing 138ktas usually.

Thats a 20kt loss. Add in a 20 kt head wind [when was the last time you found yourself with a tail wind?] and I've lost 25% of my ground speed and only gained a 18% reduction in fuel burn. That is not a good trade off. . . .

There are times where I have gone LOP wih a 25-30kt TW component - then I'm seeing 170kts over the ground 0 and the difference in arrival time is fairly small but turn it around - and pretty any wind except a direct tw slows you down a little bit - YMMV - thats why different folks do things different ways . . .

Something is way wrong if you're at 11gph and losing that much speed. Granted, I'm carb'd, but I can't actually lean it to go that slow. I can get into the high 11, but still above 145. I did 9D9-SRQ and averaged 11.4 at 9000 with a 15kt tailwind. The math says my TAS was 148.
 
-it is not possible to generate the energy necessary without burning the fuel to do so

But it is possible to generate the energy without ****ing unburned fuel out the exhaust and, thus, generate the same energy with less fuel.

But, instead of sitting around vegetating, lettuce take a quick tour of the thermo-chemistry.

Let's start with the red knob at full rich. You are dumping too much fuel in the cylinders to do anything except keep things cool. Trying to eyeball the picture in the Lycoming document, it looks like you are putting more than 20% excess fuel into the cylinders for the air flow. This excess fuel goes right out the exhaust as unburned hydrocarbon and CO. At 17 gallons an hour, $6.00 per gallon, that is more than $20 per hour out the tailpipe unburned.

Pull the red knob back to best power. About 150 ROP per the Lycoming picture. You are still putting excess fuel into the air, but since hydrogen burns easier and burns hotter than carbon you generate more power than you would at the chemically correct fuel / air mixture. Figure about 10% excess fuel - but because of the preferential burning of the H it only costs about 5% in brake specific fuel consumption (pounds fuel per horsepower hour) compared to the chemically correct mixture.

Lean to stoichiometry (chemically correct). This happens pretty close to peak. Now you are have the correct mixture of air and fuel to allow purd near all of the fuel to burn (some is quenched at the walls and in the crevices). Because you are not preferentially burning Hydrogen, you are down a few percent in power if you are at the same manifold pressure that you used for best power. Depending on altitude, you may be able to make up for the loss of power by opening the throttle and getting the same power/ speed along with a nice reduction in fuel consumption. Or, without opening the throttle you get the same power as running full rich (again per the Lycoming picture) but with an even bigger reduction in brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC). Your car runs right at stoichiometry 99+% of the time to make the catalyst work efficiently.

Lean to best BSFC. About 50 or so LOP (per Lycoming diagram). Here you actually have some excess air in the cylinders. The improvement in fuel consumption (as the same power) is modest compared to peak - about 2 or so percent. This comes from two sources - opening the throttle more to maintain the same delivered power will reduce pumping losses. And, there is some reduction in the heat lost to the cylinder walls. If you don't (or can't) open the throttle to maintain power you do lose power (about 7% compared to best power). As a result, if you lean at a constant manifold pressure / rpm your reduction in fuel flow looks better than the actual improvement in BSFC. Running here reduces the stress on exhaust valves a bit and would generally be more popular than running at peak (except in your car as previously noted) even though the improvement in fuel consumption compared to peak is small.

Lean to rough. At this point, you start to get slow burns and possibly even misfires. BSFC starts to go back up because the flame speed has gone down and you aren't burning the fuel efficiently (it burns too late in the cycle to get all the work out of the fuel energy) - slow burn and misfire cycles are even worse. Not much point to running at this mixture. You could re-design the engine to push this point out further, but the gain in fuel consumption at constant power will be modest and, unless you are turbocharged or at a lower altitude, it will not be possible to maintain the desired power levels.
 
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But it is possible to generate the energy without ****ing unburned fuel out the exhaust and, thus, generate the same energy with less fuel.
Don't confuse him with facts.
 
I like that the Rotax 912 I fly behind has (mechanical) automatic mixture control, but I am under no illusions that it's "optimally efficient" at any given speed/altitude/throttle setting. But at 4-5.5gph of MOGAS it's "efficient enough". :)

The new iS version with FADEC and fuel injection gets 18% to 30% better economy.
 
I like that the Rotax 912 I fly behind has (mechanical) automatic mixture control, but I am under no illusions that it's "optimally efficient" at any given speed/altitude/throttle setting. But at 4-5.5gph of MOGAS it's "efficient enough". :)
I have heard that claim about the Bing carburetor on many occasions, but when I look at parts diagrams etc. it looks pretty much like any other constant velocity carburetor out there - I am not convinced that it is that much better at mixture control than the carb on the old Continental 85 with the mixture wired rich (Was that a Stromberg or Marvel Schebler?). But, if you have documentation to show otherwise, I would be interested in seeing it.
 
I would certainly love to get to run on moGas in the 310. Around here that would save us about $50/hr (assuming premium). The naturally aspirated 520s I believe could do it just fine, but those silly law things.
 
Commanch', I concede your point in situations where time is money, but I gotta ask...

Thats a 20kt loss. Add in a 20 kt head wind...and I've lost 25% of my ground speed and only gained a 18% reduction in fuel burn. That is not a good trade off...

How is LOP responsible for adding in a 20 kt headwind? I'm pretty sure the wind would be the same regardless of mixture setting.
 
Commanch', I concede your point in situations where time is money, but I gotta ask...

How is LOP responsible for adding in a 20 kt headwind? I'm pretty sure the wind would be the same regardless of mixture setting.

Global warming.
 
Commanch', I concede your point in situations where time is money, but I gotta ask...



How is LOP responsible for adding in a 20 kt headwind? I'm pretty sure the wind would be the same regardless of mixture setting.

The faster you go the less affect the wind has on you
 
While Lycoming doesn't use the words, their "best economy" leaning procedure for the normally aspirated above 5000' is going to be LOP.
 
I can go LOP above 6500 to 11gph and I'm showing 138ktas usually.

Thats a 20kt loss. Add in a 20 kt head wind [when was the last time you found yourself with a tail wind?] and I've lost 25% of my ground speed and only gained a 18% reduction in fuel burn. That is not a good trade off. . . .

There are times where I have gone LOP wih a 25-30kt TW component - then I'm seeing 170kts over the ground 0 and the difference in arrival time is fairly small but turn it around - and pretty any wind except a direct tw slows you down a little bit - YMMV - thats why different folks do things different ways . . .
I wouldn't give up 20 knots either but I only give up 5k or so for 11.5 gph at 7,000 for 155knots (IO540 RV10).

In all these LOP discussions, optimization requires somehow ensuring that you are getting relatively balanced flows to all cylinders. I don't really know how GAMI works but are you GAMI'ed?

I did my own injector tuning using data from my GRT EFIS (exp) and custom injectors (exp). I didn't really fly LOP before tuning. Once tuned, I have a whole range of speeds and fuel flows to select from. I do go a bit faster into a headwind and save more fuel going downwind. I can't comfortably take 20 knots off because of roughness and rising EGTs. I don't really know what my 'top speed' is at this point because I never try to fly there given all the concerns about the 'red box'.

I've gotten real comfortable with some modest leaning in the climb, doing the big pull at cruise altitude and leaving it there until on final. With low temps and low pressures, it's hard to see how any of that can be abusive to the engine.
 
I have heard that claim about the Bing carburetor on many occasions, but when I look at parts diagrams etc. it looks pretty much like any other constant velocity carburetor out there - I am not convinced that it is that much better at mixture control than the carb on the old Continental 85 with the mixture wired rich (Was that a Stromberg or Marvel Schebler?). But, if you have documentation to show otherwise, I would be interested in seeing it.

The Bing has a diaphram that moves against ambient air pressure to alter the amount of fuel flowing through a jet, thus varying the fuel mix with altitude...it's not just "wired rich". It works pretty well up to about 10,000 feet, after which it starts to run progressively over rich for the altitude.
 
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