Loop in an Extra

Toby

Toby

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Toby Speed
Hi guys!

For a novel I'm writing, a few questions for Extra pilots:

1. What speed do you attain before pulling up into a loop? (300L)
2. What would the radius of the loop be?
3. How many Gs experienced?
4. Where are the eject buttons for both seats located?
5. Is it possible to have parachutes built into the seat of the plane, so you could get in and buckle into it along with the regular harness?
6. Would anyone mind posting a photo of the front seat instrument panel for me?

I appreciate any info you can offer -- many thanks!

Cheers,
Toby
 
Toby said:
Hi guys!

For a novel I'm writing, a few questions for Extra pilots:

1. What speed do you attain before pulling up into a loop? (300L)
2. What would the radius of the loop be?
3. How many Gs experienced?
4. Where are the eject buttons for both seats located?
5. Is it possible to have parachutes built into the seat of the plane, so you could get in and buckle into it along with the regular harness?
6. Would anyone mind posting a photo of the front seat instrument panel for me?

I appreciate any info you can offer -- many thanks!

Cheers,
Toby
Click to expand...

1. Dont' remember exactly, but I think Chip and I started at about 150. You could start slower or faster, and then...
2. ...this would vary, and...
3. ...so would this. I think we were around 3.5 to 4gs when we exited the loop we did.
4. There are no eject buttons. There's a canopy handle, which gets ripped off from the air movement, and a quick release latch on the harnesses. You climb out the side to abandon plane.
5. Probably not I don't recall a lot of room for a chute on the seat.
6. Borrowed from BruceAir:
E300L-Cockpits_TopView.jpg


Yes, you only get minimal instruments in the front panel, but I don't recall the G-meter in Chip's plane.
 
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Thanks, Ed!

Is that (L to R) airspeed indicator, VSI, and altimeter? No heading indicator in front, it looks like.

Thanks for the other info. Now I remember the quick release latch.

I need to be sure about initial airspeed and radius for the loop. I have one plane making a loop around another plane and would like to keep it tight.

Toby



EdFred said:
1. Dont' remember exactly, but I think Chip and I started at about 150. You could start slower or faster, and then...
2. ...this would vary, and...
3. ...so would this. I think we were around 3.5 to 4gs when we exited the loop we did.
4. There are no eject buttons. There's a canopy handle, which gets ripped off from the air movement, and a quick release latch on the harnesses. You climb out the side to abandon plane.
5. Probably not I don't recall a lot of room for a chute on the seat.
6. Borrowed from BruceAir:
E300L-Cockpits_TopView.jpg


Yes, you only get minimal instruments in the front panel, but I don't recall the G-meter in Chip's plane.
Click to expand...
 
Toby said:
Thanks, Ed!

Is that (L to R) airspeed indicator, VSI, and altimeter? No heading indicator in front, it looks like.

Thanks for the other info. Now I remember the quick release latch.

I need to be sure about initial airspeed and radius for the loop. I have one plane making a loop around another plane and would like to keep it tight.

Toby
Click to expand...

Hi Toby. Good to see you're still writing and still working airplanes into the stories. Is this a novel for adults? Same one you were working on a year ago or a new one?

The front cockpit instruments are Airspeed, G-Meter, and Altimeter. I don't know if that is stock/standard or just the setup Chip had (but it's a nice one). I don't ever recall looking at the VSI much when doing aerobatics, but a g meter is really nice if you're a neophyte like me.

The recommended entry speed should be in the POH but I suspect that 150 KIAS is about right for a 3g initial pull. The g force diminishes throughout the first half of the loop reaching near zero at the top for a round loop started with minimal excess speed. And a 3g pullup at 150 KTAS would give a radius of about 670 ft. All else being equal the radius is proportional to the square of the (true) airspeed if you want to make adjustments for a different entry speed or compensate for IAS vs TAS which is altitude dependent.

To "eject" (bail out is technically more correct) you can either dive over the side or just push hard on the stick once you have ditched the canopy and released the seat belts and headphone cords. Another common means of egress from such a cockpit would be to roll inverted while holding some positive g and then pushing lightly but any of those methods work only if the plane's under control in which case you might not want to abandon ship yet. Diving over the side (towards the ground wherever that is) always works, your main goal being to miss the tail (hence the "diving" part).
 
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Hi Lance, and thank you! You've answered all my questions.

Yes, this is the same novel, a murder mystery for adults. I'm writing the very last scene in the book - finally - after years of working on it. The reason I learned to fly was to write this part, and you see, I still need assistance. :)

Toby



gismo said:
Hi Toby. Good to see you're still writing and still working airplanes into the stories. Is this a novel for adults? Same one you were working on a year ago or a new one?

The front cockpit instruments are Airspeed, G-Meter, and Altimeter. I don't know if that is stock/standard or just the setup Chip had (but it's a nice one). I don't ever recall looking at the VSI much when doing aerobatics, but a g meter is really nice if you're a neophyte like me.

The recommended entry speed should be in the POH but I suspect that 150 KIAS is about right for a 3g initial pull. The g force diminishes throughout the first half of the loop reaching near zero at the top for a round loop started with minimal excess speed. And a 3g pullup at 150 KTAS would give a radius of about 670 ft. All else being equal the radius is proportional to the square of the (true) airspeed if you want to make adjustments for a different entry speed or compensate for IAS vs TAS which is altitude dependent.

To "eject" (bail out is technically more correct) you can either dive over the side or just push hard on the stick once you have ditched the canopy and released the seat belts and headphone cords. Another common means of egress from such a cockpit would be to roll inverted while holding some positive g and then pushing lightly but any of those methods work only if the plane's under control in which case you might not want to abandon ship yet. Diving over the side (towards the ground wherever that is) always works, your main goal being to miss the tail (hence the "diving" part).
Click to expand...
 
TOBY! we miss you!! Try to contact Chip I am sure he will have all of your answers. Can't wait to read the book!!!
 
Hi Adam! I miss all of you, too. I can't believe I'm finally almost done with this. I have to go through and revise, then get an agent and a publisher, not necessarily in that order.



AdamZ said:
TOBY! we miss you!! Try to contact Chip I am sure he will have all of your answers. Can't wait to read the book!!!
Click to expand...
 
bbchien said:
Good to hear you're still writing, Toby!! :)
Click to expand...

Hi, Dr. Bruce! :) Still at it. I always think of you when I fly into Chicago, which seems to be fairly often.

I still have your famous landing method tacked to my bulletin board.
 
Toby said:
Hi guys!

For a novel I'm writing, a few questions for Extra pilots:

1. What speed do you attain before pulling up into a loop? (300L)
2. What would the radius of the loop be?
3. How many Gs experienced?
4. Where are the eject buttons for both seats located?
5. Is it possible to have parachutes built into the seat of the plane, so you could get in and buckle into it along with the regular harness?
6. Would anyone mind posting a photo of the front seat instrument panel for me?

I appreciate any info you can offer -- many thanks!

Cheers,
Toby
Click to expand...

1. 160mph
2. I believe we gain about 1300-1500 feet in the loop
3. Max G pull on a normal loop we do 4G. With tighter loops being 5G
4. No ejection system
5. That would require a removable seat or ejection seat. Way too complicated, too heavy and too expensive.
6. already posted.
 
Inverted said:
5. That would require a removable seat or ejection seat. Way too complicated, too heavy and too expensive.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how this might fit into your story or be useful but I'll offer it up. Some aerobatic pilots leave the parachute in the seat when they get out and sit back down in it when they get back in the plane. They'd just sit down, buckle the 'chute on, then buckle into the harness. It's kind of a lazy thing to do and can be quite dangerous if you're not careful. If you buckle into your 'chute in this manner it's much easier to get something fastened inside the 'chute straps that wants to remain in the airplane when you want to leave - things like your harness straps, headset cords, rudder cables, etc. This can foul up your control of the airplane or keep you from shedding it when it's time to jump. That's why a conscientious akro pilot will always remove the 'chute from the plane and get it strapped on outside and then get it and buckled into the harness. But I still see people doing it at contests all the time.

The photo posted above has a backpack style 'chute sitting in the backseat.
 
Typical entry into a loop is around 160k, with about a 6g pull. It can of course be done with less, but the loop gets to be very big, and looks bad. Typical front panel is airspeed and altitude only. The seats are carbon fiber, and contoured for a back pack chute only. To bail, the canopy has a pair of levers that are squeezed together to jettison, and the airstream will make the canopy depart. Harnesses are typical Hooker five point. I have around 500 hours in my 300l, and they are pretty much the same regarding the basics. Most people recommend exiting the plane while wearing the parachute, as compared to undoing the chute and harness in the plane.
 
I think loop radius with a 160 k entry and a 6 G pull is around 1000 feet, but generally pay more attention to making it round and finishing at the same altitude as starting. It seems to fly the best when cornering just at the edge of a stall, and presents the best when flown smoothly and fairly aggressively.
 
PittsDriver said:
I'm not sure how this might fit into your story or be useful but I'll offer it up. Some aerobatic pilots leave the parachute in the seat when they get out and sit back down in it when they get back in the plane. They'd just sit down, buckle the 'chute on, then buckle into the harness. It's kind of a lazy thing to do and can be quite dangerous if you're not careful. If you buckle into your 'chute in this manner it's much easier to get something fastened inside the 'chute straps that wants to remain in the airplane when you want to leave - things like your harness straps, headset cords, rudder cables, etc. This can foul up your control of the airplane or keep you from shedding it when it's time to jump. That's why a conscientious akro pilot will always remove the 'chute from the plane and get it strapped on outside and then get it and buckled into the harness. But I still see people doing it at contests all the time.

The photo posted above has a backpack style 'chute sitting in the backseat.
Click to expand...

So funny when I saw your username I thought it was me. I am PittsDriver on several other forums lol.
 
AcroBoy said:
Most people recommend exiting the plane while wearing the parachute, as compared to undoing the chute and harness in the plane.
Click to expand...
Especially if you're doing this during an emergency egress!:hairraise::hairraise::hairraise::cornut:
 
I don't ever let a student get out of the plane without his chute. We practice egress procedures after every flight.
 
Every time I get out of the plane I review the egress procedures, thinking about getting out if the plane was upside down, spinning, or on fire. The only reasons to bail would be a loss of control due to some sort of control failure, structural loss, or a fire.
 
Thank you to everyone who responded. My main character gets into her chute outside the plane. Wouldn't you just hate to have all those buckles overlap...

In the story, I have an Extra making a loop around a 182 and doing other maneuvers to freak out the Cessna pilot. It would be very cool if he could turn on smoke, like airshow pilots do, but he's not an airshow pilot, and probably is not equipped.

6Gs sounds like a lot, but I don't remember it ever bothering me (I had a few flights in an Extra, not as PIC).

Another question: Suppose the plane runs out of fuel and must land in the water, about a half mile from shore. Pilot does a good job of putting her down. Would an Extra flip over? If this happened to you, at what point would you release the canopy?
 
plenty of non airshow pilots have smoke systems on their planes.
 
Toby said:
Thank you to everyone who responded. My main character gets into her chute outside the plane. Wouldn't you just hate to have all those buckles overlap...

In the story, I have an Extra making a loop around a 182 and doing other maneuvers to freak out the Cessna pilot. It would be very cool if he could turn on smoke, like airshow pilots do, but he's not an airshow pilot, and probably is not equipped.

6Gs sounds like a lot, but I don't remember it ever bothering me (I had a few flights in an Extra, not as PIC).

Another question: Suppose the plane runs out of fuel and must land in the water, about a half mile from shore. Pilot does a good job of putting her down. Would an Extra flip over? If this happened to you, at what point would you release the canopy?
Click to expand...

I would think that a barrell roll would make more sense than a loop since the Cessna will be moving along...

I would assume that it would be likely to end up on it's back. Personally, I would unlatch (but not jettison) the canopy before hitting the water, but I don't know if that is really a good idea or not. I don't have much ditching experience.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I would think that a barrell roll would make more sense than a loop since the Cessna will be moving along...

I would assume that it would be likely to end up on it's back. Personally, I would unlatch (but not jettison) the canopy before hitting the water, but I don't know if that is really a good idea or not. I don't have much ditching experience.
Click to expand...

Indeed, if I'm imagining what you're describing as "looping" around an airplane in flight, then it's going to look more like barrel rolling than looping and more roll than looping. The G would be much lower with even some negative while inverted to keep from diving inverted into your 182.

As it turns out, I have some ditching experience in aerobatic aircraft. My experience was in a Pitts but the result should be very close to the same in an Extra. If the ditching is done properly by flying the airplane onto the water at a normal landing speed, putting the tailwheel in the water first, then it's definitely going over on it's back as the mains settle into the water. It's pretty much a benign event believe it or not. The decel G is so low that there was no bruises or even chaffing from belts on either of us. We left the canopy on even though the POH says it should be jettisoned prior to ditching. I'm glad we did because when it went over, the canopy smacked the water hard enough to crack it. I was happy to let the canopy take that impact and not me. Done properly, the airplane is going to remain completely intact and float in an inverted, nose down position for a minute or so but as soon as you open the canopy the cockpit will flood and you'll be underwater while coming out of your harness. I would recommend taking the parachute out of the plane with you in the water because it actually works really well as a floatation device for a while. After we exited the airplane, it righted itself into a nose down upright attitude and went down about 2 minutes later as the wings filled with water.

Hope this helps.
 
Toby said:
Another question: Suppose the plane runs out of fuel and must land in the water, about a half mile from shore. Pilot does a good job of putting her down. Would an Extra flip over? If this happened to you, at what point would you release the canopy?
Click to expand...
Controlled ditchings are very much like controlled off-airport landings on other surfaces. Controlled ditchings have more than a 96% successful egress rate.

If it's very rough, the odds of flipping go up, of course. If the water is cold, a half mile would be a long way to swim. But a couple hundred yards offshore in the summer on a nice day ... nothing particularly threatening about that.

Until the sharks find you!
 
Toby said:
Thank you to everyone who responded. My main character gets into her chute outside the plane. Wouldn't you just hate to have all those buckles overlap...

In the story, I have an Extra making a loop around a 182 and doing other maneuvers to freak out the Cessna pilot. It would be very cool if he could turn on smoke, like airshow pilots do, but he's not an airshow pilot, and probably is not equipped.

6Gs sounds like a lot, but I don't remember it ever bothering me (I had a few flights in an Extra, not as PIC).
Click to expand...
6G is a lot, I've never been able to maintain consciousness at that level. Back when I was playing at acro, I'd get tunnel vision at 5G (a symptom of the initial stage of blacking out from excessive Gs).

Another question: Suppose the plane runs out of fuel and must land in the water, about a half mile from shore. Pilot does a good job of putting her down. Would an Extra flip over? If this happened to you, at what point would you release the canopy?
Click to expand...

From what I've read on the subject, if the water was fairly smooth but had some surface texture there's a pretty good chance of the plane remaining right side up as long as the pilot does a decent job (minimum forward speed and near zero vertical velocity at splashdown followed immediately by full aft stick according to the experts). Apparently the statistics indicate that there's not a lot of difference between fixed gear airplanes and retractables WRT flipping during a ditching and not flipping happens fairly often in both types. I suspect the difference in pilot techniques and external factors (waves/wind) and aircraft stall speeds is a bigger factor.

As to jettisoning the canopy prior to splashdown, I'd be concerned about it striking the tail and causing a loss of control as well as the increased difficulty of flying the plane with wind in your face so I'd leave the canopy on. Also if you flipped I suspect the canopy might lessen the trauma assuming you were well belted in. The single biggest factor in surviving a ditching initially (getting out and what happens after that is another matter) is remaining conscious. Getting smacked in the head by the water as the plane smashed in upside down after flipping doesn't sound conducive to that (this from someone with lots of experience getting smacked in the head by water at high speeds).


G. Thorpe is correct in suggesting a barrel roll around the Cessna being more plausible. I'd have to say the only way one plane could fly a loop around the other would be if the latter were ascending vertically, something a Cessna can't do for very long. If the Cessna were cruising along at it's typical 135 KTAS it's moving forward through the air at nearly 230 ft per second. The Extra will need something like 15-20 seconds to complete the loop which means the Cessna will be .6-.8 miles further ahead by the time the loop is finished. I suppose that the Extra might be able to dive below the plane from the rear and pull up into a loop while going in the same direction as the Cessna but there's an awfully good chance that the two planes would collide as the Extra was climbing since it's forward speed (in the Cessna's direction) is zero at that point.

A barrel roll is actually a variation of a loop with the plane getting upside down at the top of the roll and heading 90 degrees from it's initial path at that same point in the roll. So with a higher speed than the Cessna and the Extra coming from behind and below could probably execute a barrel roll around the Cessna, ending up below while keeping up with the Cessna's forward progress on the average. The relative positions of the planes along the Cessna's path would be changing the whole time though since the Extra's velocity in that direction goes to zero at the top of the roll.

Another possibility would be for the Extra to loop as it approached the Cessna from the side but with it's path angled forward relative to the Cessna's path. This would result in the Extra following a path similar to the threads on a screw. Viewed from well behind the Cessna the Extra's path would appear to be a vertically oriented circle (loop) around the Cessna, and it would likely appear the same from inside the Cessna except that the Extra would have to appear to move forward during the initial pullup and final pullout while falling behind in the top half of the loop. And if the Extra pilot was really skilled he could probably adjust his heading continuously during the "corkscrew" so as to maintain a nearly constant velocity along the Cessna's path as the Extra's airspeed changes during the loop. As you might guess, all of this is way beyond what I or most mere mortal pilots could pull off.
 
This is extremely helpful. A barrel roll is a much better idea than a loop. It will be more effective in accomplishing what they're trying to accomplish and less stressful to my main character, who has no experience with excess Gs. And she's got a job to do, so there's no time to pass out.

We'll leave the canopy on, and with those great stats for egress during controlled ditchings (thanks, Ken), my heroine will get out just fine. The extra moments in the water with the canopy on will give her time to release the harness latch. They might be too far offshore to swim, but I'll have the Coast Guard fly over in a helicopter and pick them up.

My friend who spends a lot of time in Martha's Vineyard tells me that the water just off the south shore is not excessively rough, so that will help their predicament. The idea of using the chute as a flotation device is great.
 
i'm surprised a parachute would float for even a little while. mine seem pretty dense.
 
Barrel rolls around the Cessna sound better. Generally would be at around 4 g, but a six g pull in looping maneuvers is not bad at all. The majority of Extras are equipped with smoke, so no problem there, either. It is great to turn on in the pattern so other planes can see you. I would definitely jettison the canopy before ditching- it is a lot bigger and stronger than the ones in Pitts, and I think would be hard to open underwater unless the whole cockpit had flooded. In fact, with enough altitude I would probably bail before ditching. Sounds like a great novel- look forward to seeing in print.
 
tonycondon said:
i'm surprised a parachute would float for even a little while. mine seem pretty dense.
Click to expand...

I was too Tony but my seat pack Butler was buoyant enough to hold me up out of the water up to the middle of my chest. I don't know how long it would do that as it became saturated with water because I didn't stay in the water long enough to find out. A passing boat picked us us in about 3 minutes. As it turns out, an airplane ditching in the water is pretty difficult to miss if you're a boater. I heard from several people that saw it that said we threw water in the air many tens of feet. I would imagine that after some period of time, the 'chute would be less buoyant.

It's funny to me know how many pilots I talk to that are really fearful of the "flipping over" part of ditching. My experience was that it's a non-issue though my perspective is probably affected by the fact that we were wearing 5 point harnesses and not just a simple lap/shoulder belt.

To the point that 6 G is a lot of G - it is for someone that doesn't experience it often. The human body is amazingly well designed for aerobatic experiences and acclimates very quickly with more frequent flights to higher G tolerance. People's base tolerance can and does vary widely but with some determined effort and practice practically anyone can pull 6 G or even much more and not experience G effects. Also, the kind of aerobatic aircraft we (as opposed to the Blue Angels) fly can't sustain the G for more than just a few seconds. Pilots do take naps occasionally in our aircraft but it's usually a short one with a happy ending. Tunnel vision, gray or red vision, are way more common than G-LOC (G induced loss of consciousness).
 
One last question. Is there a database anywhere of unused call-signs? Are they recycled when old or broken airplanes are retired?
 
Toby said:
One last question. Is there a database anywhere of unused call-signs? Are they recycled when old or broken airplanes are retired?
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http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNav_Inquiry.aspx

They can be (and sometimes are) re-used if an aircraft is de-registered. For example, if a Cessna 150 is stolen and never recovered, the number could then be re-assigned to another aircraft that is flown by John and Martha King, and then they get held at gunpoint because other data bases are not up to date...
 
Thanks, Captain. I can't seem to get any results using a range of 1 - 9 and various letters in the "trailing characters" box. Hmmm....
 
Toby said:
Thanks, Captain. I can't seem to get any results using a range of 1 - 9 and various letters in the "trailing characters" box. Hmmm....
Click to expand...

"not many digit" numbers are pretty much used up. 3 or 4 digits plus 1 or 2 letters will be more likely to get something unused.

Example start 200, end 999 trailing characters TS (for Toby Speed) gives 451 choices.
 
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Toby said:
One last question. Is there a database anywhere of unused call-signs? Are they recycled when old or broken airplanes are retired?
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If you're looking for N-numbers to use in the book that aren't actually registered to an airplane you could just makeup a number that is an invalid format.
 
jesse said:
If you're looking for N-numbers to use in the book that aren't actually registered to an airplane you could just makeup a number that is an invalid format.
Click to expand...

And then people like me will read the book, and say, "what a horrible author, they used an invalid N-Number. Couldn't they at least do their research?" Yeah, small details bug me like that in books, movies, etc...

Toby, you could always reserve an N-number with the Feds for like $5 or something like that, and use that tail number - which I think would be super cool if I was reading a book/watching a movie, googled it and found the author took those steps just to make it realistic.
 
EdFred said:
And then people like me will read the book, and say, "what a horrible author, they used an invalid N-Number. Couldn't they at least do their research?" Yeah, small details bug me like that in books, movies, etc...

Toby, you could always reserve an N-number with the Feds for like $5 or something like that, and use that tail number - which I think would be super cool if I was reading a book/watching a movie, googled it and found the author took those steps just to make it realistic.
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I'd rather an author use an invalid n-number then tie up a real n-number for no reason. Just my opinion.
 
jesse said:
I'd rather an author use an invalid n-number then tie up a real n-number for no reason. Just my opinion.
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Yea, but when the book hits the best seller list and turns into a really big movie, then the number could be sold for, like, a gazillon dollars.

Pick N numbers from friends airplanes. Or pick numbers from "notable" aircraft and see if anyone catches on.
 
Haha, so many choices.

But do you know what I just found out?? The N number of my very own plane -- Sweepea -- that I sold two years ago is available!

It was originally sold to a guy in Canada, and he went through registering it up there. I heard from my A&P later that the buyer ran into a lot of red tape because he was putting in a new engine and various other new parts, and he couldn't get all the paperwork approved in Canada. I don't know what ultimately happened to the plane, but the N number has been deregistered! So I'm going to use it.

N4150J. :)
 
Toby said:
Haha, so many choices.

But do you know what I just found out?? The N number of my very own plane -- Sweepea -- that I sold two years ago is available!

It was originally sold to a guy in Canada, and he went through registering it up there. I heard from my A&P later that the buyer ran into a lot of red tape because he was putting in a new engine and various other new parts, and he couldn't get all the paperwork approved in Canada. I don't know what ultimately happened to the plane, but the N number has been deregistered! So I'm going to use it.

N4150J. :)
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If you reserve it ($5) no one else will get that number which might be a good thing. Jesse's idea of using an invalid format is similar to what Hollywood does with phone #s, e.g. 555-3440.
 
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