Looks like an Icing accident

Ryanb said:
How can you be certain there will not be icing in those clouds if the temps are freezing?
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The liquid water can already be frozen into ice. Thus not as much of a threat to a small aircraft.
 
Ryanb said:
How can you be certain there will not be icing in those clouds if the temps are freezing?
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If the temperatures are cold enough, the potential for ice to accumulate is greatly decreased. What you have to look at is what type of clouds they are and how much latent energy they carry. If you are looking at a standard frontal system with no inversions and no vertical developments, and you are starting at a temperature below freezing with a cold soaked plane, your chances of ice accumulation are near zero.

If you are climbing out in the cold under an inversion with a 34° convective base layer above, you ardently likely to survive.

Not all clouds are the same, not all fronts are equal in potential. You have to understand exactly what it is you are dealing with on that flight.
 
ChemGuy said:
The liquid water can already be frozen into ice. Thus not as much of a threat to a small aircraft.
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The liquid water can also be supercooled well below freezing temp in Super Cooled Liquid Droplets, which turn into ice the moment they are disturbed by your aircraft.

Always know exactly what you are looking at when flying into clouds. Monsters hide in clouds.
 
Henning said:
The liquid water can also be supercooled well below freezing temp in Super Cooled Liquid Droplets, which turn into ice the moment they are disturbed by your aircraft.

Always know exactly what you are looking at when flying into clouds. Monsters hide in clouds.
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My only icing encounter was what I think was SLD icing. I was on an IFR plan, no airmets or pireps for ice. I was about to enter a large dark cloud, and I noticed no precip on the NEXRAD and OAT was about +5C. After entering the cloud:

"Wow, it's raining hard in this cloud"

Look at OAT gauge, "Wow, it's -5C in this cloud"

Look at leading edge of wing "Holy cow, there's ice on the wing already"

I bang a 180, informing ATC as I do. The controller gives me some lip and I tell her I can declare if that makes things easier. No, she says, just report clear of cloud.

Departed cloud, got routing around cloud, ice melted off quickly.

Was that SLD?
 
Bill Jennings said:
My only icing encounter was what I think was SLD icing. I was on an IFR plan, no airmets or pireps for ice. I was about to enter a large dark cloud, and I noticed no precip on the NEXRAD and OAT was about +5C. After entering the cloud:

"Wow, it's raining hard in this cloud"

Look at OAT gauge, "Wow, it's -5C in this cloud"

Look at leading edge of wing "Holy cow, there's ice on the wing already"

I bang a 180, informing ATC as I do. The controller gives me some lip and I tell her I can declare if that makes things easier. No, she says, just report clear of cloud.

Departed cloud, got routing around cloud, ice melted off quickly.

Was that SLD?
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Most likely, I had similar once in Alabama on approach and it was seriously cold.
 
I can't count the number of times I've heard instructors and others say of FIKI airplanes, presumably in widespread IMC, that "If you encounter ice, climb."

Well these guys did. Climbing takes time. 2 to 4 minutes (if you're lucky) to go up 2000 feet. 4 to 8 minutes to go up 4000 feet. Climbing in a Cessna requires time without ice on the wings.

If you mess around (say 5 min) and don't start climbing immediately, there's a good chance it's going to be too late. You will have spent 10 to 15 minutes in ice. And how high do you need to go anyway? You may not know since you supposedly didn't know you'd be in ice in the first place.

Why not change the old saying to "if you encounter ice, get out of it or land immediately!" The old generic advice of "climb" is just too simplistic and carries too many assumptions that may not be true.


.
 
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Thank you for all the replies on this thread. As always I post these threads to try and gain knowledge about the accident and learn from it by you all, that know far more than I do. Icing has been something I wish I knew more about. I know that ice is only likely in sub zero temps and there of, no matter what the moisture is. But i always thought when flying through a cloud in freezing temps ice is possible or certain to happen. Say you call for a brief and the freezing level is 3000', if there are no clouds or visible moisture at that altitude you dont have to worry about icing. But if the freeze level was at 4000' and there were clouds, flying through those clouds at that altitude would be likely to have ice accumulate, am i missing something here?
 
The problem with climbing is also where the ice forms, you want to keep the climb shallow enough to keep the bottom of the wing clean.
 
Ryanb said:
Thank you for all the replies on this thread. As always I post these threads to try and gain knowledge about the accident and learn from it by you all, that know far more than I do. Icing has been something I wish I knew more about. I know that ice is only likely in sub zero temps and there of, no matter what the moisture is. But i always thought when flying through a cloud in freezing temps ice is possible or certain to happen. Say you call for a brief and the freezing level is 3000', if there are no clouds or visible moisture at that altitude you dont have to worry about icing. But if the freeze level was at 4000' and there were clouds, flying through those clouds at that altitude would be likely to have ice accumulate, am i missing something here?
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You may or may not, there are several factors involved. First off, if you are in visible moisture at 3000' with freezing 1000' above, your chances of gathering ice at 3000' on departure is low. However if you are inbound in a cold soaked plane, you may briefly gather some frosting.

Water comes in many forms, only a few of them will really screw you over.
 
Henning said:
You may or may not, there are several factors involved. First off, if you are in visible moisture at 3000' with freezing 1000' above, your chances of gathering ice at 3000' on departure is low. However if you are inbound in a cold soaked plane, you may briefly gather some frosting.

Water comes in many forms, only a few of them will really screw you over.
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So how do you know if you would pick up ice before you flew through the imc? For me I would just think..okay the OAT's are all above freezing so i shouldnt have any icing. But if the temps are 0 to -5 C or so and i would be flying through imc, i would want to postpone my trip or stay vfr.
 
docmirror said:
Well, in a prev post I already said what I would do. Once again: As soon as ice is discovered - Turn to the nearest landing site, declare an emergency, and land asap. Alternative, if there is known VMC in some direction, go there as soon as you can.

I don't fly in ice, and heck even the guy above who has a FIKI plane admits it's not fool proof 100% of the time.
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Up here in the ice-laden Pacific Northwest, just the use of the word ice gets the controller's attention immediately. Not knocking the idea of using the E word.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Up here in the ice-laden Pacific Northwest, just the use of the word ice gets the controller's attention immediately. Not knocking the idea of using the E word.

Bob Gardner
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Whatever word will get me vectors and altitudes to where I can put it on the ground on my terms. E word, I word, F word - as long as the mission gets done. Once I'm hugging the tarmac, they can call me for a chat about how I handled it. My reply will be liberally sprinkled with the 'flight safety' statement.
 
Ryanb said:
So how do you know of you would pick up ice before you flew through the imc? For me I would just think..okay the OAT's are all above freezing so i shouldnt have any icing. But if the temps are 0 to -5 C or so and i would be flying through imc, i would want to postpone my trip or stay vfr.
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I agree with your analysis. If I did not have deice gear, I would not enter those conditions. That said, it does not mean that I will accumulate ice in those conditions. There is a good chance that if that layer starts at 2000', freezes at 4000', and tops at 6000', that I will never accumulate any ice and have to cycle my boots, but my props, pitot, and plate, would be hot. It depends on how much moisture is in the cloud, and that depends on how much energy is in the cloud. Not all clouds are the same.
 
I looked up the metars for nearby airports at the time of the accident. Light snow, -5 C, dewpoint -6 C, ceilings from 600 to 1200' depending on location, visibility 2.5 miles.

For three days after the accident it was MVFR and below 0 C. They would have had to wait four days for good VFR.
 
Ice is such an insidious devil. As Henning said, I've flown through visible moisture that surprised me both ways, sometimes it builds quickly and other times nothing.

But the only time that really scared me was in a light single headed west over the Appalachians and I met a system that began to build ice as soon as I entered the cloud. It wasn't long before I noticed speed degradation and an increasing aoa just to maintain altitude, and that about scared the pants off me. An immediate 180 and an understanding center controller took care of the rest. Once in clear air the ice sublimated off and I was able to divert to continue the trip via another route.

I cannot forget that event, no matter how long ago it was. That fear is seared into my consciousness and I hope if faced with a similar situation in the future that I am just as willing to head back from whence I came, except even more quickly. That is the only thing that saved me that day.
 
Ice is not a new subject! This is all old news. Especially if you were trained by a CFI who has also flown commercially and is high time. Then it is repeated over and over to you to be very very cautious as ice will kill you quick. It certainly does not fall under the heading of " gee , I didn't know that!"
 
petrolero said:
I can't count the number of times I've heard instructors and others say of FIKI airplanes, presumably in widespread IMC, that "If you encounter ice, climb."

Well these guys did. Climbing takes time. 2 to 4 minutes (if you're lucky) to go up 2000 feet. 4 to 8 minutes to go up 4000 feet. Climbing in a Cessna requires time without ice on the wings.

If you mess around (say 5 min) and don't start climbing immediately, there's a good chance it's going to be too late. You will have spent 10 to 15 minutes in ice. And how high do you need to go anyway? You may not know since you supposedly didn't know you'd be in ice in the first place.

Why not change the old saying to "if you encounter ice, get out of it or land immediately!" The old generic advice of "climb" is just too simplistic and carries too many assumptions that may not be true.


.
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Unfortunately, most of us are poor enough at communication that when we say, "if you encounter ice, climb," we assume that the receiver is fully aware of all the base assumptions.
 
Last weekend I was flying through rain with an outside temperature of -2 C. I was watching very carefully for any ice and I had an out of getting lower where I knew it was warmer. I was very surprised that it was all liquid with no icing at all even though it was -2 C. On the other side of the coin I've experienced icing at -15 C.
 
If you do not have an escape from the ice below you, you probably shouldn't keep climbing if you don't have deice gear.
 
Well what's ironic is that the planes most capable of dealing with ice don't have to spend much time in it. Turboprops and jets can climb very rapidly through ice and get above it quickly. The more vulnerable piston planes even with FIKI take too long to climb through ice. Even with FIKI on a piston plane its not a great idea to be climbing through ice.
 
narchee said:
Well what's ironic is that the planes most capable of dealing with ice don't have to spend much time in it. Turboprops and jets can climb very rapidly through ice and get above it quickly. The more vulnerable piston planes even with FIKI take too long to climb through ice. Even with FIKI on a piston plane its not a great idea to be climbing through ice.
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That is the sad truth of the situation. The real issue is excess horsepower, recips don't have much.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Ice is not a new subject! This is all old news. Especially if you were trained by a CFI who has also flown commercially and is high time. Then it is repeated over and over to you to be very very cautious as ice will kill you quick. It certainly does not fall under the heading of " gee , I didn't know that!"
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+1

My CFII was a Commercial pilot until deciding to stay home and raise his kids while the wife made the money.

He was seen by some of the other instructors as being a little over cautious when it came to his decision making but I was ok with that.

My one experience with ice was while training with him and was also one of my first flights in the clouds. The temps were flirting with zero and our route took us in to a solid layer that lasted for about 15 miles if memory serves.

We were right over the Puget Sound and could see the water flashing below through breaks in the clouds. We started watching the tires to check for a color change and were ready to descend in to VFR conditions if necessary.

He was very alert and constantly pointed out areas on the plane that we could use to check for ice buildup.

I was very surprised to see a light build up in the corner of the windscreen but the leading edge of the tire was completely covered in ice. This happened in only a moment or two and kind of hammered home the idea that your situation can change quickly and for the worse.

The layer that we were in was only a couple of hundred feet thick so we could have climbed on top or descended the 50 or 100 feet that would have put us in the clear down below but I'm glad he was trying to impart real world knowledge in my training as well.

It was also an eye opener to see that the ice did form at a temp that was higher than the book answer....
 
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narchee said:
Last weekend I was flying through rain with an outside temperature of -2 C. I was watching very carefully for any ice and I had an out of getting lower where I knew it was warmer. I was very surprised that it was all liquid with no icing at all even though it was -2 C. On the other side of the coin I've experienced icing at -15 C.
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Interesting, this is why I feel like icing is such a hard subject to grasp full understanding of, seems like it can just randomly occur
 
Henning said:
If you do not have an escape from the ice below you, you probably shouldn't keep climbing if you don't have deice gear.
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Plus absent an inversion aren't the tops the worst part of a layer for picking up ice?
 
red4golf said:
+1

My CFII was a Commercial pilot until deciding to stay home and raise his kids while the wife made the money.

He was seen by some of the other instructors as being a little over cautious when it came to his decision making but I was ok with that.

My one experience with ice was while training with him and was also one of my first flights in the clouds. The temps were flirting with zero and our route took us in to a solid layer that lasted for about 15 miles if memory serves.

We were right over the Puget Sound and could see the water flashing below through breaks in the clouds. We started watching the tires to check for a color change and were ready to descend in to VFR conditions if necessary.

He was very alert and constantly pointed out areas on the plane that we could use to check for ice buildup.

I was very surprised to see a light build up in the corner of the windscreen but the leading edge of the tire was completely covered in ice. This happened in only a moment or two and kind of hammered home the idea that your situation can change quickly and for the worse.

The layer that we were in was only a couple of hundred feet thick so we could have climbed on top or descended the 50 or 100 feet that would have put us in the clear down below but I'm glad he was trying to impart real world knowledge in my training as well.

It was also an eye opener to see that the ice did form at a temp that was higher than the book answer....
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I have a lot of respect for an instructor confident enough to show you this. What were you flying?
 
We were in a 172R. He was pretty sure that we wouldn't have an issue with ice because of the temp at the time but it was interesting to see his Spidy senses start to tingle. It was a good lesson for me to learn in a relatively benign situation.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk
 
red4golf said:
We were in a 172R. He was pretty sure that we wouldn't have an issue with ice because of the temp at the time but it was interesting to see his Spidy senses start to tingle. It was a good lesson for me to learn in a relatively benign situation.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk
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We had a heated thread about instructors showing students benign icing conditions in something like a 172 awhile back. I said it then and I still believe this is the kind of thing you never forget, solid gold. I wish I would have been shown the same vs. finding out by myself.
 
I've been watching his vids for some time now. Didn't know this happened. Terribly sad, regardless of the fault.

The only ice I've enountered down south is in a PC-12 and I'm glad I have the little experience that I do. It was a topic I was pretty uncomfortable with for awhile. Don't mess with the stuff.
 
Alexb2000 said:
We had a heated thread about instructors showing students benign icing conditions in something like a 172 awhile back. I said it then and I still believe this is the kind of thing you never forget, solid gold. I wish I would have been shown the same vs. finding out by myself.
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Being from South Texas we don't see icing much. I've seen it three times - two were pretty well spaced out with more than two years between incidents and different conditions. Once was with an instructor, once on another flight, and once in an RV-6 on a ferry flight. Each time we recognized it quickly and were able to get out of the conditions pretty quickly each time, but I would prefer to avoid even the slightest bit than deal with it again.
 
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Flying in IMC in the middle of winter on a bugsmasher is never a good idea. Trying to dodge clouds or icing areas at this time of the year is not good decision making, CFI or not.
 
bobmrg said:
Up here in the ice-laden Pacific Northwest, just the use of the word ice gets the controller's attention immediately. Not knocking the idea of using the E word.

Bob Gardner
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Well living in Alaska every pilot watches weather like a hawk. I just don't understand how a person could make such a bad decision. As in this case to fly instead of waiting for better weather.

Took me 2 weeks to go from Mississippi to Alaska because of weather. I flew VFR.

Very sad outcome, condolences to the family
 
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