Looking to start Pilots License, few Questions...

S

scjohnson243

Filing Flight Plan
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Jul 16, 2013
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Fort Smith, Arkansas
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Scjohnson
Good morning folks, I have been looking around the boards for the last hour while I was at work and have a few generic questions for all of you that have been here before..

(I have tried the search but I get a PBB Error (not sure what that is) about 50% of the time)

I'm searching for a good place to learn, I have googled and spoke to a few guys on the phone, currently I'm looking at a local school ( http://www.brflightinstruction.com/ )

I have wanted to be a pilot all my life, I could not get into the airforce or any military branch because of many, many knee surgeries and now I'm old and fat at almost 40 years old =) This would be one of my life dreams to be able to fly.

the idea of spending $5,500 - $8,000 on a hobby that just gets me the license to be able to fly seems fairly steep. I was wondering how many of you guys (other than being independenty wealthy) do this on some sort of budget? I read I can rent a plane from that school for 140/hr "Wet" (I assume this means with fuel) do you guys just save up a bit of cash for a weekend flight for a few hours? Ideally I would like to build enough hours to get my commercial license so when I'm a really old fart I'll be able to possibly make a bit of money when I retire as a pilot (if thats possible)

I'm just curious how you guys get your flight time in after the initial investment of the license...

Also, when you rent a plane, are you paying just for the time you are in the air, or the time the plane is gone? For instance if I rent a plane here in Baton Rouge and take a 2 hour flight to Florida for the weekend and then come home another few days (another 2 hours flight) am I paying for 4 hours, or 48 hours?

Anyway, thanks folks, I appreciate the time in advance!
 
First, 40 isn't old. I started lessons when I was 48, passed my private ride at 49 and my IR ride at 59. So, don't worry about the age. The only impact that has, assuming you meet the physical requirements, is that you'll need a 3rd class medical exam every 2 years, rather than every 5 years if you were younger than 40. :(

The good news about the cost is that learning to fly is pay as you go. If a flight school wants the whole amount up front, run, don't walk, the other way. There are too many stories of flight schools taking the funds and going bankrupt the next day. No refund, no training. Pay for the airplane and instructor as you use them. There are up front expenses, of course, You'll need some books and other supplies, but you have control over what you spend there, and they aren't too bad.

"Wet" means with fuel and oil. That should be your total cost per hour to fly the plane. Oftentimes this is determined by a meter in the panel called the Hobbs meter (so named as the largest manufacturer is Hobbs). It typically is wired to the master switch and an oil pressure switch, so it starts running when you start the engine and stops when you shut down. Our club got a plane a number of years ago that didn't have the oil pressure switch. The Hobbs meter started running as soon as you turned on the power. Not good when you need the master switch on to check fuel gauges, lights and lower the flaps. A number of us complained that we were being charged to pre-flight the plane. That got fixed. Make sure you aren't being gouged by this. The rental pilot's prayer goes along the lines that if an instrument is to fail, please let it be the Hobbs. :yes:

In our club we pay for Hobbs time. If the plane is parked somewhere it doesn't cost the member anything. I have a trip planned this weekend and it will only cost the Hobbs time, nothing else. Some FBOs will have a minimum number of hours that you are expected to fly and will bill you for that minimum even if you don't use it. Keep in mind that they are trying to make a profit and they don't make any money if the airplane is sitting. You'll have to ask where you rent, each may have their own policies.

I wanted to learn to fly my whole life, too. Didn't have the time or the money at the same time for years. We were the high bidders for a flightseeing ride in a fund raiser at our church a number of years ago and when my wife found out that we could get across the state in about 2 hours instead of the 5 1/2 hour drive she thought that I should finally learn. Who am I do argue with my wife? I knew an instructor through the local amateur radio club and started up with him. Fast forward a few years and my wife commented that we had skipped too many flights across the state because I didn't have an instrument rating. She thought I should get one. Took a little longer due to a few issues getting in the way (instructors coming and going, health, etc.), but I finally got it done. Bottom line - keep plugging away. And you're never too old.

Now, I'd like to have my own plane, but my wife likes the cost structure of the club better. Planes are well maintained and in the years I've been a member I've been unable to fly due to the lack of availability of a plane exactly once. I haven't always gotten the plane I had in mind, but I've been able to fly. This evening, for example, I'm going up with my CFII for an instrument proficiency check and flight review. I planned on using the club's C-172N, but it wasn't available. Darn, I'll just have to use the 182 instead. :D

Best of luck and keep us informed of your progress. No such thing as a dumb question, but you'll get some dumb answers. :D
 
Thank you both - I have some money coming in the next few months that would pay for my training (if its in the 5500 - 8500 estimate) I was more concerned about getting a license and then never having the money to use it, so it just goes away! I would *LOVE* to be able to take the wife and baby on trips, so thats one of my main motivations, and if I'm reading this correctly, renting a plane isnt that expensive.. for an example, we were recently looking to buy some land in Arkansas, its an 8 hour drive so about 400 bucks to rent a car, 580 bucks for a train ride, and about 900 for round trip tickets in a plane... if I'm reading that correct I can rent a plane for 140"wet" and its a 2 hour flight, so 280 there, and 280 back... so 560.. it falls right in line, (and turns an 8 hour trip into a 2.5 hour one)

I can swing a few hundred here and there every month to get an hour of flight time, so that doesn't seem so bad at all....

Also it seems like it would open up a lot more area to cover in our family trips!

Thank you folks very much Would love more opinions if anyone has them! :)
 
As others said, 40 isn't old (I should know, I'm three weeks away) although it may be somewhat limiting if you were to make a career of it. The good news is there are plenty of pilots who started at your age or older and have established a nice retirement job of instructing. You won't get rich, but you'll be in the air on someone else's dime.

Look into flying clubs as well. Go out to your local airport and just talk to folks. Flying isn't cheap, but you don't have to be rich to do it, either. To answer your question about hourly costs, you generally pay for the time the prop is turning. There may be daily minimums for keeping the plane overnight, but they may be negotiable.
 
scjohnson243 said:
Thank you both - I have some money coming in the next few months that would pay for my training (if its in the 5500 - 8500 estimate) I was more concerned about getting a license and then never having the money to use it, so it just goes away! I would *LOVE* to be able to take the wife and baby on trips, so thats one of my main motivations, and if I'm reading this correctly, renting a plane isnt that expensive.. for an example, we were recently looking to buy some land in Arkansas, its an 8 hour drive so about 400 bucks to rent a car, 580 bucks for a train ride, and about 900 for round trip tickets in a plane... if I'm reading that correct I can rent a plane for 140"wet" and its a 2 hour flight, so 280 there, and 280 back... so 560.. it falls right in line, (and turns an 8 hour trip into a 2.5 hour one)

I can swing a few hundred here and there every month to get an hour of flight time, so that doesn't seem so bad at all....

Also it seems like it would open up a lot more area to cover in our family trips!

Thank you folks very much Would love more opinions if anyone has them! :)
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My advice is to learn to fly if you enjoy flying. Shortening trips is a nice side effect, but you'll learn that many factors can play into whether you'll be able to make the trip. If you're learning to fly only to have a faster commute, you'll be disappointed.

After you get your license, budget for a minimum of 2-3 hours of flying per month. This will give you the bare minimum to stay current and do a few hundred dollar hamburgers along the way.

If you plan to take lots of long trips, you could easily double or triple that.
 
I would guess that it really depends on why you want your license. I want mine so that I can fly around with my wife and kids. I'm a student pilot getting close to my check ride. I joined a flying club and pay a CFI which I believe was the most affordable option. I started with the plan that I would fly once every other week and hoped to have my pilots license in a couple years. I quickly realized that would be just about impossible for me to get my license with 40?? hours flying only 2 times a month. I would suggest you save up enough money to power out 50-60 hours of training. I quickly changed that plan to 2-3 times per week and early on in my training; that didn't seem often enough. I think if you plan on only flying 1-2 times a month you will quickly want to fly more often. It was amazing how much faster I progressed when I could get 2-3 flights in a week.
 
Be aware that cost estimates that presume 40 hours are lowballing you. There is one very rough rule of thumb that you should assume two hours for every year of age, for a private pilot certificate.

It's a lot of fun. It does have it's ups and downs, if you happen to get "stuck" at some skill (it's very common, especially for landings right before solo). But the airborne perspective is really different, even for familiar areas, and this is really worth it IMO. My motivator is mountain flying. There is nothing quite like a hop over a high mountain pass into a remote airport. Others have other motivators.
 
+1 to finding a good flying club to both train with, and they fly with once you have your certificate.

The clubs provide a "shared ownership" experience that spreads the cost of ownership and operation out among many members, keeping what the individual member pays well within their budget. And you had the positive benefit of members at all levels of proficiency to share their experiences and wisdom.

Clubs range from "equity" where you spend a few to a few more thousand dollars to purchase a share of the corporation, to non-equity clubs where you pay an initiation fee of X hundred dollars. Both typically have monthly dues, access to a scheduling system, and folks who handle the administration, bookkeeping, and maintenance for the club.

Many clubs have CFI's as members that you can contract with to do your training.

Clubs often provide the benefit of multiple aircraft available, from the simple and smaller trainers, to the bigger, faster, and more complicated. This becomes a big money saver over private ownership when you are ready to step up from the trainer into a faster aircraft.


BTW; regarding your training budget, you're about right with the price and numbers... The best thing to do to stay there or less is
to fly and train multiple times a week and stay sharp on your training.
Do the assigned bookwork before the lesson and show up ready and prepared.
Make sure your instructor uses a written syllabus


Finally, before you commit to this money, make sure you are 100% good to go for your medical certificate. In fact, get that done early. Go get a thorough physical from the family doctor and get cleared on items such as:
  • Cardiac issues
  • Blood Sugars
  • High Blood Pressure
  • Anti-Depressant Use
  • Sleep Apnea
  • Kidney Stones
  • Past Alcohol issues, including DUI's or DWI's.
  • And any other major or significant health issues or gotchas.

None of the above list are complete show stoppers to your desire to fly. However, a few of them require additional documentation to show the FAA doctors you're good to go.

On the health issues, remember this name: Dr. Bruce Chien, out of Peoria, IL. He is one of the top doc's in the aeromedical game when it comes to assisting airmen with complicated health issues.
 
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Wow, I think you nailed it for the 2 hours per every year of age for completion time. If you are renting at $140 wet (ouch), and an instructor at $40, it will quickly surpass that $5000 mark. If "ground" is book work, then you can do that solo and save $20 per hour (see Rod Machado). If ground is before and after flight briefing, well, you need that too so can't skip it. Not sure what airspace is like in Baton Rouge, but check the distance from airports to practice areas by talking to the school, as that adds up too. Non-profit flying clubs, if available, are a great way to get your certificate at a reasonable cost.

Flying is a hoot and a half, and a great hobby. The views are awesome. The options it adds to your vacation possibilities are countless. But if you ever add up all the numbers, training plus rental plus maintaing currency etc etc, it is not a money saver. Time, sure, sometimes.
 
As Mike hinted at but didn't spell out. Do not go to an AME for your medical unless you know that you have met all the criteria and will walk out of the office with certificate in hand. Anything else, denied or deferred, means you can't fly sport pilot until the denial/deferral is straightened out, usually at mega-bucks levels.
 
Love the information, Thank you all so much!

I found the local flying club and sent off an email to the address listed, so will hopefully get a bit more information from them soon. I have wanted to be a pilot all my life, wanted to fly for as long as I remember. The fact that I would be able to take my family to places that are further away is just a bonus. Love the idea of the flying club, that seems like it would make the whole experience much more affordable - cant wait to hear back about it. Luckly I have had my health checkup late last year (For law enforcement) and I get a clean bill of health...

I don't really expect it to be a money saver, just dont want it to break my back with the costs, but - If I can get the license for an big "chuck" at the beginning for ~10k, and then take a few hours a month flying after than (some more than others when its trip time) then that I can totally do! :)
 
Another bit of advice on containing costs....some outfits use "modern avionics" as a selling point. You don't need this. An airplane will fly with NO avionics, and almost everything you do in training uses them only sparingly. A basic panel with "six pack" gauges and one nav/com radio (perhaps, plus a transponder, depending on local airspace) is all you need, and it can make a difference of $40/hour or more. You can even do without some of the six pack gauges, but almost all training aircraft have them. Having two radios is kinda nice post-solo. Not essential, but also not a major factor in cost.

Fancy glass panels ARE a major factor in cost. And they also tend to suck in eyeballs, not a good thing under visual flight rules.

Don't make the assumption that an old or ugly aircraft is in poor condition. Those are largely independent properties. All aircraft are inspected annually, and an airworthiness determination is part of every preflight -- you'll be trained in this. Most of the aircraft I fly are 1980 or older. Some folks really enjoy flying historical aircraft, many of which are substantially older than that (there are at least two WWII warbirds flying around PAO on nice weekends, and at least one guy operates a Stearman biplane out of Sonoma).
 
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I hate to burst your bubble, but I doubt you will finish a checkride in $5000. FWIW, I spent at least $10,000, partly because I had to switch planes three times and that added time. I have so far spent far more than $10,000 on an Instrument rating, having to unfortunately stop and restart several times. If I had known I would have spent $15000 on an instrument rating, I'm not sure I would have started.

If you don't like your instructor, dump him and move on to another one. I made that mistake, and only realized later that the instructor I had really sucked, I just didn't know it until I had a good instructor. Make sure you have a lesson plan and know what you will be doing each lesson.

I learned to fly in hunks of junk. Many schools have junky looking airplanes, and most are okay. One I flew regularly and took my checkride in, it had the engine pulled out shortly after I took my checkride and the mechanic told me that engine was so corroded that airplane should not have been flying. That's pretty much when I left that school.
 
How do you know the difference? MAKG said an old or "ugly" aircraft is perfectly fine - AL has a story about flying in one that "Should not have been flying"

Being a new guy is there a way to dodge this bullet? I mean I have no idea how well maintained "older" aircraft are - is there a way to know if its a "good" older aircraft or "bad" one?
 
I am sure most of your questions have been answered but my $0.02.

  • Flying is not a cheap hobby. You will spend a sizable amount to get the license and then anywhere from $100/hr and up to pursue/enjoy it afterwards. I think that it is worth it.
  • You can take your lessons (figure about $200/lesson) at whatever pace you like. At least 1x week would be better but you can go slower if that is all you can afford. It will probably cost you more if you go slower but if you are doing something you want to be doing then so what...
  • You pay a minimum rental if you take the airplane for any extended period. Usually you pay for 3 or 4 hours per day whether you use it or not. You can negotiate that to some extent (ex. I rented a 172 for four days with a 10 hour minimum). Time is counted whenever the engine is running (Hobbs time).
 
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One way is to ask the other pilots. The "right" way is to inspect the logbooks, but that's expecting a bit much if you've never flown before.

There should be some record of unresolved reported problems. If there isn't, RUN the other way. A long list of significant unresolved problems is a red flag. It can be a challenge for a new pilot to know what's significant and what isn't -- for instance, a trim pointer being inaccurate is not significant; they all do that. A burning smell upon turning the electrical master on is pretty serious. Ask pointed questions of the instructor. Read the preflight chapter in the Airplane Flying Handbook (it's on the FAA website as PDF, for free). There will always be some reported problems. Some pilots can't resist squawking tiny flat spots on the tires that show up on nearly every student landing, even though these are not actionable unless the reinforcement cord is showing.

You inspect an aircraft for airworthiness before every flight. When in doubt, don't fly.

Note that the instructor is almost certainly not responsible for maintenance. It makes some of them nervous to answer questions because of this. Make it clear you understand. I think an instructor is the right person to ask specifically because they are not responsible -- those who are have a conflict of interest; it's in their interest to minimize severity and get the plane rented. But this means the instructor can't say "that problem will be fixed by X date." They don't (usually) have the authority to do that.
 
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scjohnson243 said:
How do you know the difference? MAKG said an old or "ugly" aircraft is perfectly fine - AL has a story about flying in one that "Should not have been flying"

Being a new guy is there a way to dodge this bullet? I mean I have no idea how well maintained "older" aircraft are - is there a way to know if its a "good" older aircraft or "bad" one?
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Are you mechanically-inclined? Trainer aircraft are dirt simple. Do a good preflight and trust your instincts; don't fly if you do not like what you see.
 
Here's my 2 cents. If you have any medical issues, ie diabetes, sleep apnea and other such issues due to weight, contact Dr. Bruce Chien for a consult before getting medical. He is in Peoria Il. If there are no issues and he is confident get your medical. Then start flying. You can start working on you knowledge test as well through online sources, DVD etc. King, Gleim,and Sportys are good. I used King and Gleim. Got a 92. If you have your medical prior to age 40, it's good for 5 years. Once you pass knowledge test, you have to have check ride by second anniversary. Get at least the medical out of way and get a good start on knowledge test. Then try to fly 3 times per week. Good luck.
 
scjohnson243 said:
How do you know the difference? MAKG said an old or "ugly" aircraft is perfectly fine - AL has a story about flying in one that "Should not have been flying"

Being a new guy is there a way to dodge this bullet? I mean I have no idea how well maintained "older" aircraft are - is there a way to know if its a "good" older aircraft or "bad" one?
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Most flight schools have old and ugly airplanes, but are mechanically sound. Some places do the bare minimum maintenance, and those you have to watch for. This place I flew, they didn't fix anything they didn't have to and their airplanes always had something wrong with them. One airplane did not have a working heading indicator nor a compass, but they still rented it out. Gee, I guess you don't really need to know the direction you want to go. Just be aware of the overall condition, and if the airplanes frequently have maintenance issues. If there is something you are not comfortable with, don't go.
 
bluee said:
Most flight schools have old and ugly airplanes, but are mechanically sound. Some places do the bare minimum maintenance, and those you have to watch for. This place I flew, they didn't fix anything they didn't have to and their airplanes always had something wrong with them. One airplane did not have a working heading indicator nor a compass, but they still rented it out. Gee, I guess you don't really need to know the direction you want to go. Just be aware of the overall condition, and if the airplanes frequently have maintenance issues. If there is something you are not comfortable with, don't go.
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There are several regulations about required equipment. The first one to watch for is 14 CFR 91.205(b). The aircraft described here fails that test, and it is not airworthy for that reason. The magnetic compass is required. The heading indicator is not unless you're flying under instrument flight rules (i.e., never as a student).

That isn't to say you can't fly safely with no compass -- generally, you can, as long as you can identify landmarks. But not all places lend themselves to that, and it really leaves no margin for error. Confuse one landmark and you can get very, very lost.

And if you're talking to ATC and get vectored to heading 120, WTF are you supposed to do with no compass? It's not like that's a rare event.
 
I was paying $135/hour for a trainer (60s and 70s vintage Cherokees that smelled of oil, sweat and desperation) AND instructor. Shop around. And don't get suckered into paying in advance (called "block time"); flight schools can and do go TU overnight. Ask me how I know.

Flying clubs are a good idea, if you can find one with suitable planes that will accept a student pilot. Before you look at joining, though, do make sure the medical is taken care of.

I think 2 hours per year of age is a little high. BY that standard I'd have taken close to 100 hours. I finished in under 60, at a total cost of somewhere between 7 and 8 AMUs (Aviation Monetary Units, equal to $1000). Your mileage may vary, of course, plus or minus an undefined number of hours and dollars. :)

Do make sure you'll be able to fly at least a couple of times a week. The more idle time between lessons, the longer it will take you. If you can only afford to fly once a week it will take a lot longer (and cost a lot more) to finish than if you bite the bullet and fly 3 or 4 times a week.
 
The OP's screen name is SCJohnson....

All I keep thinking about a Lemon Pledge...:goofy:;)
 
I did a little research about flight schools in the Baton Rouge area and found what seems like a better deal that you might want to check out and consider. If you are near Hammond Northshore Rgnl, they have Piper Warriors in the $115-$125 range. I don't know anything about this area, so take this advice with a grain of salt. The point is, you can save a lot of money in the long run by visiting these airports and FBO's to get a better feel for the services that they offer.

http://www.flybyknight.biz/rental.html
 
Seanaldinho said:
Im curious as to what kind of trainer youre looking at for 140/hr ?
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I pay $135 for a 172P with two non-flip flop radios, an ADF, and I think there's an altimeter too. They're the least expensive airport within a reasonable driving distance of here...and I'm the one who drove an hour and fifteen minutes each way (with no traffic) to learn how to fly in the first place. Back at home, they charge $130 for a 1972 172L that has an antique GPS and flip flop radios. Oh and an ADF. $110 for a Skycatcher.
 
jpower said:
I pay $135 for a 172P with two non-flip flop radios, an ADF, and I think there's an altimeter too. They're the least expensive airport within a reasonable driving distance of here...and I'm the one who drove an hour and fifteen minutes each way (with no traffic) to learn how to fly in the first place. Back at home, they charge $130 for a 1972 172L that has an antique GPS and flip flop radios. Oh and an ADF. $110 for a Skycatcher.
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I would hope so.
 
jpower said:
I pay $135 for a 172P with two non-flip flop radios, an ADF, and I think there's an altimeter too. They're the least expensive airport within a reasonable driving distance of here...and I'm the one who drove an hour and fifteen minutes each way (with no traffic) to learn how to fly in the first place. Back at home, they charge $130 for a 1972 172L that has an antique GPS and flip flop radios. Oh and an ADF. $110 for a Skycatcher.
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I'd go with the LSA.
 
MAKG1 said:
Be aware that cost estimates that presume 40 hours are lowballing you. There is one very rough rule of thumb that you should assume two hours for every year of age, for a private pilot certificate.
Click to expand...

Pretty accurate for me. I was 40 when I got my license and had 200 landings and 81 hours. I was waiting for the DPE to be available so maybe I was ready at 70 or 75, but the extra practice certainly didn't hurt.

My PPL cost me about $15K.

$125/hr wet C172, $45/hr CFI

81 hours rental
64 hours dual
34 hours ground (time before and after each lesson)
60 flights

I live in the mountains so there was an element of mountain flying built-in which added time, plus a few "for fun" XCs that added training but were above the base requirements.
 
alfadog said:
I'd go with the LSA.
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I do. No way am I spending the $130 for the 172 at home unless I need the extra lift. I learned in LSAs, so I have no problem with their "twitchiness." There are some people around who refuse to fly it because it's too twitchy or something.

Now, up here in Hartford, they charge $150 for a 172P at Brainard Airport, and there's no way I'm paying that. I drive a ways to Robertson where things are (a little) more reasonable. Unfortunately, there are no two-seat airplanes available basically anywhere around here. CT Flight Academy at HFD has Tomahawks (and others, including a Warrior for $150-160/hr, can't remember what they said), but you can't rent them. They're only for instruction and the required solo hours. Go figure? I was going to pay them money...but okay fine, if you insist, I'll take my business elsewhere.
 
I have been looking for a club in the BTR area for quite some time. I haven't found any, other than some 5 partner planes that were full. It seems the insurance goes up when you go above 5 partners. If you find a club I'm interested in joining.
 
I keep my plane at False River, but have done my Instrument training with an Instructor out of Baton Rouge. He has a nice Warrior (with AC) that he rents out that may be worth checking into.

Sent from my mobile device.
 
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Couple of things.

First off, how long it takes you is a very personal thing; I started when I was 42 years old, and took my check ride at around 43 hours. This was principally the result of my decision to fly at least twice a week, often three times- as often as I could reasonably manage.

Secondly, while flying is costly, it is also very satisfying, and (in my case) it is my hobby; I don't fish, hunt, golf or chase women. So some of the expense is shifted, not just sunk,

Lastly, funny coincidence: that flight school you linked has two of the planes I trained in on its rental line- 5359K and 4733D. I took my check ride in 4733D, but it was a faded, 70s-looking brown/orange bird then, so omeone has clearly lavished some love on her since then! As others have said, age is not a factor, maintenance is. Old 33Delta was funky looking then, but always flew like a dream.

Gotta be good karma there!

Don't be afraid to negotiate on rates, and jump on in. And, for goodness' sake, let us know as you progress.
 
True on the time it takes being variable. Your progress is most directly tied to frequency of training (getting your schedule, plane's and instructor's to all sync). Finding the right instructor -for you- will definitely have an impact. Weather will scramble things up. Plane maintenance. And Mr. Murphy will certainly put in an appearance or two.
 
alfadog said:
The FBO he mentioned charges that for a mediocre 172.
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jpower said:
I pay $135 for a 172P with two non-flip flop radios, an ADF, and I think there's an altimeter too. They're the least expensive airport within a reasonable driving distance of here...and I'm the one who drove an hour and fifteen minutes each way (with no traffic) to learn how to fly in the first place. Back at home, they charge $130 for a 1972 172L that has an antique GPS and flip flop radios. Oh and an ADF. $110 for a Skycatcher.
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Youch.

For 135/hour wet I could rent a newer 172 with a G1000.
 
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