Looking to pick someone's brain

ircphoenix

ircphoenix

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ircphoenix
So I'm buying a plane for the first time. I'm looking at a Cherokee 180 D. Problem is, I have no idea (other than vref) what I should be paying for this plane. I have the seller's asking price, I have the TTAF, TSMOH, a pre purchase inspection, photos of the plane, and how much I'm going to have to spend to make it prettified.

I'd really appreciate it if someone who is knowledgeable about the buying and the selling of similar planes would be willing to chat me up via PM.

Thank you!
 
Look on Tradeaplane.com and controller.com and find comparables. Then offer X% under their asking price and negotiate from there. If in doubt, make X big. You can always come up.

What really matters is condition. Make sure you get an independent check for corrosion, compression and you check for function (fly with someone). Helps if its close by, but it usually isn't. If you want the fewest problems, get a creampuff. Youll pay a little more, but it will be worth it (usually).
 
Just feel bad because I think the *limit* for what I'm willing to pay for this plane after this inspection and vref is at a 20% discount. Hell... vref says I shouldn't pay more than 65% of asking. But I hear that vref can't be counted on worth a damn.
 
Not a fan of VREF, just get a feel for the market and buy as if you are buying to sell.
 
VREF says pretty much any Cherokee 180 D is worth 34 out the gate. Almost every single one on both controller or trade a plane is more than that. Most don't have functioning autopilots, which is an assumption that VREF makes... and most of them need paint/interior which would dump the price by 9k right there. I dunno. *sigh*
 
Most people dont make an offer until they inspect it. Keep in mind engine time changes things, a lot. Rebuilding an engine is 20k (or so, can be higher). And a lot of downtime.

Also, its best to get it with the avionics and accessories you want. Autopilots are really expensive to put in.

If you want really nice, find something newer. Like a newer Warrior. They will be more though.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Most people dont make an offer until they inspect it.
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Hardly most.

I have seen and done false where the offer comes after the inspection, but in my experience, you agree upon a price first, then inspect to verify that the airplane is as-represented and there are no hidden gotchas or airworthiness discrepancies.

If there is a broker involved, you will most likely be expected to make an offer first.
 
1) VREF is notoriously inaccurate.
2) (almost) no one pays asking price.

You might ask a good insurance agent the value an insurance company will permit on the policy - that'll give you an idea of the "ballpark" price. If an insurance company won't cover the asking price, the asking price is likely too high. (Of course there are exceptions - specialty, EAB, and rare aircraft are a different story.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Hardly most.

I have seen and done false where the offer comes after the inspection, but in my experience, you agree upon a price first, then inspect to verify that the airplane is as-represented and there are no hidden gotchas or airworthiness discrepancies.

If there is a broker involved, you will most likely be expected to make an offer first.
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Agreed

Normally, for me and my friends at least;

1. Find said plane

2. Agree on a price for the plane in STATED condition.

3. FAA records CD obtained, verify title and go over all the airworthy related stuff, NTSB search run on tail number(s) and serial number, flightaware checked for current activity if it's not a blocked tail number, run the seller through the airmans records, Google search of the aircraft and seller.

3. If all still looks good.
Deposit sent after purchase contract is signed, I often use the AOPA purchase agreement template, with a few tweaks if needed


4. Prebuy to verify STATED condition, and verify all documents are present and accounted for.


5. Price may go down if differences are found between STATED CONDITION and ACTUAL CONDITION, or the seller just brings the plane back into stated condition before the sale closes.


6. If all goes well and is kosher to both parties, my prebuy turns into a annual if I pull the trigger, since my version of a prebuy goes above and beyond standard airworthiness stuff anyways.

7. Cash changes hands or accounts, 8050-1&2 completed, hands are shaken and planes are flown.
 
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iflyifr said:
On AOPA they have a Vref section that does a pretty good job of giving a ball park figure. I've used it several times both in buying and selling. Plus finding comparables on Trade-a-Plane, Controller, etc. gives me a starting point of how much to ask or offer. It is interesting to see what adds value to an aircraft in today's market. The market determines the price in many cases and also how much I need to get or am willing to spend. The Vref also helps me to determine where to put my money in upgrades to help to convince the wife. She looks at the airplane as an investment so anything I can convince her adds value to the airplane she insists on getting which has been everything so far.
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I never look at an airplane as an investment...:eek: Maybe it's just me... But, if that's working for you so be it...:):):)
 
ircphoenix said:
VREF says pretty much any Cherokee 180 D is worth 34 out the gate. Almost every single one on both controller or trade a plane is more than that. Most don't have functioning autopilots, which is an assumption that VREF makes... and most of them need paint/interior which would dump the price by 9k right there. I dunno. *sigh*
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Forget Vref, here's some real-world data points for your consumption:

-In 2011 I paid 30 for a 1983-84? Warrior II with a runout engine. That got me the true back seats, 110 block (115 true) @ 8gph with the post-78 wheel pants, no autopilot, a KLN 89B, 2-up and sub-500fpm climb rates below 5k in the TX summer.

-In 2013 I paid 45 for a '74 Arrow II. That got me 1100SMOH engine, half painted paint wings/stab, all speed mods, a G430W, OEM autopilot, and 130 block (135 true) on 9gph, 3-up, full fuel and 900 fpm climb rates below 5k in the TX summer.

I don't subscribe to the "equal scrutiny for a PA28 as a PA46" approach to aircraft purchasing, but that's me and my "shortcomings". I'm still alive, I'm making memories, no unplanned engine implosion or airframe "coming from together". Whatever, to each their own.

Good luck to ya. Personally, if I knew today I wasn't gonna gonna pull the trigger within the next 3 years on an RG plane, I'd try to snag a post-'73 cherokee (to include the O540 equipped 73 charger and 74 pathfinder) or any taper wing pa28 I could low ball into your price range. Put new wheel pants on anything pre-'78, or thank your lucky stars if you find one already updated.
 
coloradobluesky said:
If in doubt, make X big. You can always come up.
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Careful low balling too much. Personally that ****es me off to the point where I'd rather wait and give it to someone else at that lower price.
 
bikert said:
Careful low balling too much. Personally that ****es me off to the point where I'd rather wait and give it to someone else at that lower price.
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Got an independent appraisal from someone else who looked at the listing, looked at the photos, and said "My gut says that's a 26k airplane." Which I was ballparking at 27 myself. So that makes me feel a bit more reasonable. And I guarandamntee you that's going to **** the seller off. Oh well. It ****es me off that he didn't bother mentioning any of the FOD damage to the under side of the control surfaces or the wrinkle on the underside of the wing.

A pre-purchase is the best effing insurance money can buy.
 
wsuffa said:
It's a depreciable asset. With a few rare exceptions.
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Heh. I love that term. "Depreciable asset"... Heh. It's such a good indication of how well we all rationalize things. In normal definitions that would be called a "liability". :)
 
denverpilot said:
Heh. I love that term. "Depreciable asset"... Heh. It's such a good indication of how well we all rationalize things. In normal definitions that would be called a "liability". :)
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Umm. No. Not at all. A depreciable asset is something that you own that goes down in value over time. A liability is something that you owe someone else. They are not the same. The accounting treatment is not the same. No one is rationalizing anything here.
 
Goes down in value tax law wise, most aircraft on the line seem to almost hedge inflation actually.
 
retailguy said:
Umm. No. Not at all. A depreciable asset is something that you own that goes down in value over time. A liability is something that you owe someone else. They are not the same. The accounting treatment is not the same. No one is rationalizing anything here.
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Sure it is. Either it makes money or it costs money. There's a lot of made up crap in between but a "depreciable asset" would have to be something that was adding to the bottom line in another way to offset depreciation. Otherwise it isn't an asset at the end of the day.

A recreational toy is simply a liability, monetarily. It may not be a liability as far as mental health is concerned, but there's no accounting rules for that. ;)
 
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