Looking for a Ripon/Fisk arrival airborne video

gismo

gismo

Touchdown! Greaser!
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iGismo
I've been asked to present a 45 minute seminar on flying into AirVenture and would really like to have some video to incorporate in the presentation. Anybody here have something to contribute?
 
several on utube, but I guess you'd need permission to snag or hope they were accessible during the talk
 
I shot this one from the right seat, flying in with Kent. You're welcome to use it (there's a "download this video" link down on the right hand side of the page if you scroll down).

Let the video load then jump forward to time mark 13:15... it REALLY starts getting into the arrival about 24:00.

www.vimeo.com/whistman/oshkosh

EAA also has this page with instructions and airborne photos, annotated: http://www.airventure.org/atc/vfr_basics.html
 
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45 minutes on flying into the show? Good luck. Takes two. Read the NOTAM and do what it says. Follow the guy in front of you. Ain't rocket science. Good luck with your show.
 
steingar said:
45 minutes on flying into the show? Good luck. Takes two. Read the NOTAM and do what it says. Follow the guy in front of you. Ain't rocket science. Good luck with your show.
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I was thinking the same thing!

For 8 years I briefed pilots flying as a group into OSH from our hotel in Iowa City, through the FISK approach. This briefing included takeoff procedures, initial altitudes, radio frequencies, emergency procedures -- the whole nine yards, from take-off at IOW to parking in the North 40.

It took about ten minutes, including questions. It's a very easy approach.
 
Why not go over some of the accidents and other goofups, that would not only keep their interest, it might prevent a recurrence.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Why not go over some of the accidents and other goofups, that would not only keep their interest, it might prevent a recurrence.
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Whoa, you mean one of them is an undertrained light jet pilot named Rousch?! You're gonna need more than 45 minutes for that guy. ;)
 
Thanks Mike and Troy, between those two videos I think I can extract what I need. Mike's movie has me wondering what (free) software I could use to speed up segments of Troy's video, any suggestions?

As to the 45 minutes, yes I could squeeze the whole thing into 3 minutes with a couple pictures and an admonition to read and understand the NOTAM. I could also stretch it to a couple hours going over every conceivable issue and reading the whole NOTAM out loud. The purpose of this seminar is a combination of entertainment and education with the emphasis on convincing some of the pilot's who've wanted to go but have stayed away due to fears of massive furballs, 200 word a minute controllers and general discomfort with unfamiliar territory.
 
gismo said:
Thanks Mike and Troy, between those two videos I think I can extract what I need. Mike's movie has me wondering what (free) software I could use to speed up segments of Troy's video, any suggestions?
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VirtualDub is free, but definitely Daunting.

I use an old copy of Premiere. Adobe offers a 30 day free trial I believe, although there may be limitations I'm not aware of.. I think Microsoft made a thing called Movie Maker which was free, but I've never used it.
 
gismo said:
As to the 45 minutes, yes I could squeeze the whole thing into 3 minutes with a couple pictures and an admonition to read and understand the NOTAM. I could also stretch it to a couple hours going over every conceivable issue and reading the whole NOTAM out loud. The purpose of this seminar is a combination of entertainment and education with the emphasis on convincing some of the pilot's who've wanted to go but have stayed away due to fears of massive furballs, 200 word a minute controllers and general discomfort with unfamiliar territory.
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Excellent!

I would suggest you also point out that there is a *departure* procedure as well, and that's one of the most-botched pieces of the NOTAM. The worst part is, when they're using 27 for arrivals and departures, the idiots who didn't read the departure procedure and climb past the required 1300 feet will blow right through the arrivals coming down the railroad tracks at 1800 feet for the right downwind. Something to watch for on both arrival and departure.

Another thing you can suggest is some practice with the following:

1) Required power settings for 90 knots at 1800 feet
2) Maintaining 90 KIAS as far into the approach as possible, but finishing with a spot landing. When someone decides to slow to 65 knots or something like that when they get to crosswind, everyone else stacks up behind them. Better to slow down a bit early than a bit late, but that doesn't mean 3 miles out.
3) Go to a long runway, practice flying a pattern with the descent starting on the crosswind-downwind turn, and the turn to final at ~100 AGL. That was a surprise the first time I flew the east-west road approach to 18R. I've also been asked for a short approach to 27.
4) I suppose it wouldn't hurt for some people to practice going off the edge of the runway at 30 knots or so. Pick a gap between lights, of course - Flare, land, slow down, and as soon as able, head for the grass and get out of the way.

For all of the above, some simple practice with slow flight, stalls, and steep turns if they haven't been done recently would be a good idea as well.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Excellent!

I would suggest you also point out that there is a *departure* procedure as well, and that's one of the most-botched pieces of the NOTAM. The worst part is, when they're using 27 for arrivals and departures, the idiots who didn't read the departure procedure and climb past the required 1300 feet will blow right through the arrivals coming down the railroad tracks at 1800 feet for the right downwind. Something to watch for on both arrival and departure.
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Good point although you kinda pointed that out as you crossed the departure end of 27:D.

Another thing you can suggest is some practice with the following:

1) Required power settings for 90 knots at 1800 feet
2) Maintaining 90 KIAS as far into the approach as possible, but finishing with a spot landing. When someone decides to slow to 65 knots or something like that when they get to crosswind, everyone else stacks up behind them. Better to slow down a bit early than a bit late, but that doesn't mean 3 miles out.
3) Go to a long runway, practice flying a pattern with the descent starting on the crosswind-downwind turn, and the turn to final at ~100 AGL. That was a surprise the first time I flew the east-west road approach to 18R. I've also been asked for a short approach to 27.
4) I suppose it wouldn't hurt for some people to practice going off the edge of the runway at 30 knots or so. Pick a gap between lights, of course - Flare, land, slow down, and as soon as able, head for the grass and get out of the way.

For all of the above, some simple practice with slow flight, stalls, and steep turns if they haven't been done recently would be a good idea as well.
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I agree with the landing practice starting at 90 KIAS on the turn to final and I had planned to suggest determining the power setting required for 90 KIAS before the trip or at least at some point along the way well before reaching RIPON. But I don't think I'm gonna suggest anyone practice rolling off the edge of the runway since there's no guarantee the terrain there is safe, not to mention the issue with runway lights.:yikes: I assume that OSH removes the runway lights for AirVenture to facilitate getting planes off the runway quickly. Since they close the airport before sunset there's no need for them during the event.
 
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gismo said:
Good point although you kinda pointed that out as you crossed the departure end of 27:D.

I agree with the landing practice starting at 90 KIAS on the turn to final and I had planned to suggest determining the power setting required for 90 KIAS before the trip or at least at some point along the way well before reaching RIPON. But I don't think I'm gonna suggest anyone practice rolling off the edge of the runway since there's no guarantee the terrain there is safe, not to mention the issue with runway lights.:yikes: I assume that OSH removes the runway lights for AirVenture to facilitate getting planes off the runway quickly. Since they close the airport before sunset there's no need for them during the event.
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Planes turn off the sides of the runway at OSH not run off the end. It's up to the pilot not to prop-strike the taxi lights that are 50-100 feet apart.

I would not assume any sort of equipment removal occurs like you suggest.
 
Required power settings for 90 knots at 1800 feet
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YES, YES, YES!

This is the #1 problem I see at OSH, each and every year.

The ability to hold and maintain an airspeed and an altitude is something every pilot knows how to do. However, it is easy to get distracted from flying the plane while doing the FISK approach, since your head is on a swivel looking for traffic. With your head outside the plane, it's easier to let your airspeed or altitude decay.

Several times over the years, I've ended up dropping flaps and dragging along at 80 knots or slower behind guys who simply were not paying attention to their airspeed. It's just like traffic on a 2-lane highway -- all in takes is one guy to go abnormally slow to mess up everyone in trail.

BTW: This is another reason it is GREAT to have another pilot on board for the FISK approach. That second person can act as another set of eyes on the lookout for traffic. You are then a bit more free to fly the plane.

Have fun with your talk. I'm not sure showing pictures of accidents at OSH is the best way to encourage people to attend, however! :lol:
 
gismo said:
Good point although you kinda pointed that out as you crossed the departure end of 27:D.
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Oh yeah. ;) Well, I tend do that when flying with others, since they're on the correct side of the plane to see someone coming up off 27 from underneath us.

I assume that OSH removes the runway lights for AirVenture to facilitate getting planes off the runway quickly. Since they close the airport before sunset there's no need for them during the event.
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No, I'm pretty sure the lights are still there. But now that you mention it I'm not COMPLETELY sure. I do, however, look for lights and such regardless before exiting the runway.

That's probably the least important of the things I mentioned in terms of practice anyway. Nobody's gonna get killed by not rolling off the runway fast enough, it may just cause a go-around (Hopefully not by a plane whose tail number ends in JR). What does tend to cause accidents at OSH are the stall-related accidents - In the last few years, there have been base-to-final spins and at least one departure stall.

Also, 90 KIAS until final won't work for the east-west road to 18 approaches as "final" is VERY short - about 1/6 mile or less. In a really draggy airplane you could probably get away with 90 KIAS until the start of the base turn. OTOH, going into runway 9 you could probably maintain 90 KIAS for about half of the final approach.

I flew the E/W->18R approach in the DA40 back in February. Gotta slow that puppy down early... Earlier than I did. Not my best landing. :redface: But that's why it's good to practice before the sky is full of aluminum and plastic.
 
Doggtyred said:
Planes turn off the sides of the runway at OSH not run off the end. It's up to the pilot not to prop-strike the taxi lights that are 50-100 feet apart.

I would not assume any sort of equipment removal occurs like you suggest.
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Well you could be right but I've landed at OSH many times and I don't remember having to dodge runway lights when pulling off into the grass. Perhaps I just avoided them subconsciously but given that planes are usually traveling 30-60 feet per second when they pull off I'm having trouble believing that they wouldn't get hit a lot if they're 50-100 ft apart. I guess I'll have to remember to take a close look next time.
 
gismo said:
Good point although you kinda pointed that out as you crossed the departure end of 27:D.

I agree with the landing practice starting at 90 KIAS on the turn to final and I had planned to suggest determining the power setting required for 90 KIAS before the trip or at least at some point along the way well before reaching RIPON.
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I'm not going this year, but if I did, the 90KIAS won't do you any good if you are behind me because I can't go that fast. I assume I am not the only one.
 
Steve said:
tucked in on the airventure page sidebar is this link to runway specific guidance

http://www.airventure.org/atc/flows.html

easily overlooked when reviewing the main body of the page text
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Those are great summary charts; notice that the bottom notes on each one advise paying close attention to 'hazards marked by cones or flags' as you exit the runway. If you look at my video, you can see the cones. Looks like that's how they deal with any items not feasibly removed.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I'm not going this year, but if I did, the 90KIAS won't do you any good if you are behind me because I can't go that fast. I assume I am not the only one.
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I've had that problem before and I cannot go any slower than 90 KIAS. My solution was to pass the slower plane which tends to work out well because there's usually a big gap ahead of it.
 
gismo said:
I've had that problem before and I cannot go any slower than 90 KIAS. My solution was to pass the slower plane which tends to work out well because there's usually a big gap ahead of it.
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You can do 135 knots at 2300 MSL....

But, yea, there probably would be a gap in front of me. (Or someone else in a J3, or...)
 
skylanerg said:
You may want to review eSTMP procedures - that will fill a few minutes.
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That's only applicable to those who go to OSH IFR, which is not many. The NOTAM stipulates that you are "strongly encouraged" to cancel IFR within 60nm of OSH and fly the VFR arrival.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You can do 135 knots at 2300 MSL....
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Only from Ripon to Fisk. After that, everyone's at 1800. Generally if there are both fast and slow aircraft approaching Fisk the controllers will send the slow ones up the tracks to 9/27 and the fast ones east along the road to 18/36, but the fast guys should still slow down as close to 90 knots as they can get.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Only from Ripon to Fisk. After that, everyone's at 1800. Generally if there are both fast and slow aircraft approaching Fisk the controllers will send the slow ones up the tracks to 9/27 and the fast ones east along the road to 18/36, but the fast guys should still slow down as close to 90 knots as they can get.
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(Headslap).. You solved the mystery! The Air France crew was just practicing for the OSH arrival while enroute!

(Boo, hiss. Bad I know. I'm in a mood. Boss is making this "Senior Linux Engineer" help with Windows server patches tonight.)
 
Simplest thing I've ever heard of being screwed up so much. 90 knots, 1800 feet, follow the guy in front of you over the railroad tracks. And nobody can do it. Its a bit scary, since most of the guys are designing bridges or doing brain surgery when not flying, and they can't even get this simple little thing.
 
Any video or audio presentation is not complete without finishing with... http://oshawapilot.ca/audio/oshkosh.mp3 ..... having made the arrival, and dang near knowing the notam by heart when it was time to use it... this was PAINFUL to hear...

Google "how not to arrive at oshkosh" to find more links
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You can do 135 knots at 2300 MSL....

But, yea, there probably would be a gap in front of me. (Or someone else in a J3, or...)
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Almost every time I wanted to use the 130 Kt 2300 arrival I wasn't allowed. One or two of those times the ceiling was actually too low for the 1800 ft arrival and 2300 would surely have been in the clouds but I've been denied the 2300 ft version when the skies were clear as well.
 
gismo said:
Almost every time I wanted to use the 130 Kt 2300 arrival I wasn't allowed. One or two of those times the ceiling was actually too low for the 1800 ft arrival and 2300 would surely have been in the clouds but I've been denied the 2300 ft version when the skies were clear as well.
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How did they deny it when they don't even know you're there for that part of the procedure? :dunno:
 
denverpilot said:
OMFG.
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Ah, good ol' 53Alpha. If I owned a Cessna that had a tail number ending in 53A I'd get a new tail number.

I like Rick Durden's idea: $500 landing fee for Airventure, waived when you show them your copy of the NOTAM.
 
steingar said:
Simplest thing I've ever heard of being screwed up so much. 90 knots, 1800 feet, follow the guy in front of you over the railroad tracks. And nobody can do it. Its a bit scary, since most of the guys are designing bridges or doing brain surgery when not flying, and they can't even get this simple little thing.
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We recently had a pilot guest (yes, a brain surgeon) manage to pull the hood release on the courtesy car whilst going 60 MPH down the highway.

Was he trying to adjust the steering wheel? We will probably never know.

Yes, the hood flipped up. Why the secondary latch failed is anyone's guess.

Yes, the windshield shattered. No, it did not shatter into the passenger compartment, but the car was not driveable. No, the guy never offered to repair the damage, nor did he give me his insurance company's name. Amazingly, his wife was miffed that we did not have another free car to offer them.

It does not surprise me -- not even a little -- that a brain surgeon can't fly an airplane properly.
 
Doggtyred said:
If there was ever a cause for enforcement to take place at OSH.... this was it.
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I don't believe this was the worst infraction, just one of the worst caught on tape. I'm not positive but I think I heard of one or two pilots who flew into OSH during AirVenture without following the procedure or talking to anyone on the radio. Just joined in with the flow on downwind and landed. I personally encountered an airplane (another Baron no less) that dropped out of the 1200 AGL solid overcast next to me on downwind. The visibility was barely over 3nm and the tower never did catch on to the fact that one Baron suddenly became two flying side by side.
 
Doggtyred said:
The 135 KTS is for a/c that CANNOT fly safely at 90. Not for planes that CAN fly at 135.
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My Baron can fly at 90 KIAS but that's 10 kt below blueline, a speed one isn't supposed to fly below except when taking off and landing. Lose an engine below that speed and it's questionable whether or not you can continue on one unless you have a thousand feet or more of altitude to give up. But I can and have flown the procedure at 90 KIAS and my stall speed at MGW is 76 Kt with flaps up dropping to 70 with approach flaps. At the weight I'd normally be at coming into OSH the real stall speeds would be about 5 Kt less but that's still not a lot of margin and if the plane in front of me is going slower than 90 Kt, I can't match it.
 
gismo said:
I don't believe this was the worst infraction, just one of the worst caught on tape. I'm not positive but I think I heard of one or two pilots who flew into OSH during AirVenture without following the procedure or talking to anyone on the radio. Just joined in with the flow on downwind and landed. I personally encountered an airplane (another Baron no less) that dropped out of the 1200 AGL solid overcast next to me on downwind. The visibility was barely over 3nm and the tower never did catch on to the fact that one Baron suddenly became two flying side by side.
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I've personally encountered this - Landing runway 9 in 2007, I was #4 behind a T-34, a B-25, and a C172 when suddenly we heard...

"Mentor, go around. We've got a Citabria that just landed 27, he's not talking to anyone."
"B-25, go around... Oh crap, now he's taking off, traffic on final for 9 use caution..."
(it turned out to be a Luscombe)

The 172 and I managed to land, and the first glimpse I saw of it was when I saw a silver wing arcing up in front of the 172 as the clueless Luscombe driver made a steep turn just after takeoff and headed north.

Cameras were rolling at the time. I guess it's about time I dig up that tape and post it...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I've personally encountered this - Landing runway 9 in 2007, I was #4 behind a T-34, a B-25, and a C172 when suddenly we heard...

"Mentor, go around. We've got a Citabria that just landed 27, he's not talking to anyone."
"B-25, go around... Oh crap, now he's taking off, traffic on final for 9 use caution..."
(it turned out to be a Luscombe)

The 172 and I managed to land, and the first glimpse I saw of it was when I saw a silver wing arcing up in front of the 172 as the clueless Luscombe driver made a steep turn just after takeoff and headed north.

Cameras were rolling at the time. I guess it's about time I dig up that tape and post it...
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Sounds like the Luscombe pilot figured he'd better get outta Dodge before someone was able to read his registration number. Or was he just doing a nice touch and go on a pretty summer day?
 
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