Looking for a fixed gear plane in good condition... not having much luck

There are a couple of 182s on the field at KRUE for sale. There is also a Cherokee 140/160 with power exhaust that has been idle for a long time. PM me for contact info if interested. I don't have details on any of them.
 
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They can do what they want, the damage to the market that greed has wrought has been done and hundreds of premium planes are no longer such, therefor no longer available to the market. Shortsighted and greedy buyers turned the older plane market into a cesspool. Now there are no good planes to buy anymore at reasonable value and you either have a choice between cheap **** and next to new with next to new pricing. The people buying the steam panel Cirrus models for <$150k thinking they are getting a deal had better be figuring that they will never be able to sell that plane.

OK... greedy buyers messed the market up. I can't say I agree with you on that, but current market conditions (however they were created) are well beyond my control as a buyer at this time.

I just want to find a small plane that is priced reasonable and have fun flying without having to buy a Bonanza to train in... or finance a plane restoration business.

It looks as though many sellers didn't put away overhaul costs during their flying and expect buyers to pick up the overhaul and neglected maintenance bills.
 
The market adjusts accordingly. I roll my eyes when I see the liberal use of the word "greed". That word usually tells me that someone feels either jealous or taken advantage of because they didn't do their homework.

The market is strictly a supply and demand model. If there is a diminished demand for single engine steam gauge planes, the price will drop. If there is a hot market for turbo-props, the demand is great and the price will rise. It's really a simple concept once you remove emotion from it. It has always intrigued me how people get emotionally attached to houses, airplanes, etc. and it clouds their business judgement.

The market is what we make it. The market represents the values we hold and act with. The market is nothing but a place of trade, humans set the principles and the rules. We set the mode on selfish and destroyed the quality of the market.
 
OK... greedy buyers messed the market up. I can't say I agree with you on that, but current market conditions (however they were created) are well beyond my control as a buyer at this time.

I just want to find a small plane that is priced reasonable and have fun flying without having to buy a Bonanza to train in... or finance a plane restoration business.

It looks as though many sellers didn't put away overhaul costs during their flying and expect buyers to pick up the overhaul and neglected maintenance bills.

Well, tough, you don't have a choice left, the market is what it is.
 
OK... greedy buyers messed the market up. I can't say I agree with you on that, but current market conditions (however they were created) are well beyond my control as a buyer at this time.

I just want to find a small plane that is priced reasonable and have fun flying without having to buy a Bonanza to train in... or finance a plane restoration business.

It looks as though many sellers didn't put away overhaul costs during their flying and expect buyers to pick up the overhaul and neglected maintenance bills.

It has nothing to do with sellers not putting away overhaul costs. No private seller is going to sell a plane, " including $17,000 cash engine reserve fund".

What the seller has in his savings account, checking account, or a coffee can in the backyard has nothing to do with the price you can expect to pay for the plane. Nor the condition of the plane and engine.

As a Buyer, it is your obligation to become very educated on the CURRENT pricing on the planes/years/models you want.

There are a lot of 172's that can be bought for $25-30k, lots of 182's that can be had for $35-40k.

But,you will have to weed out some junk, and negotiate on ones that you want.

Call everyone listed on TAP and Barnstormers, search Craigslist nationally, knock on doors. Your plane is out there if you work hard enough.
 
OK... greedy buyers messed the market up. I can't say I agree with you on that, but current market conditions (however they were created) are well beyond my control as a buyer at this time.

I just want to find a small plane that is priced reasonable and have fun flying without having to buy a Bonanza to train in... or finance a plane restoration business.

It looks as though many sellers didn't put away overhaul costs during their flying and expect buyers to pick up the overhaul and neglected maintenance bills.

The most expensive mistake I've made in aviation was buying a Cherokee and not going straight for the Bo. Probably cost me 10-15K in the long run. If you're wanting to move up, get the Bo now. It'll be cheaper in the long run.
 
The market is what we make it. The market represents the values we hold and act with. The market is nothing but a place of trade, humans set the principles and the rules. We set the mode on selfish and destroyed the quality of the market.

OK, gotcha. Since you're so unselfish, I've got a plane I can sell you. Asking price is 100k, but since you're not greedy and certainly an unselfish person, I'll expect to see your offer at 120k.
 
OK, gotcha. Since you're so unselfish, I've got a plane I can sell you. Asking price is 100k, but since you're not greedy and certainly an unselfish person, I'll expect to see your offer at 120k.

I have no desire for your plane. When I bought my last plane it was as the owner represented and I paid him his price because the practical value existed as did the parts value, in fact, the salvage value of the engines and props was nearly 200% the asking price. To top it off, the airframe was in pristine condition. I make my decisions based on fair value, not what I can beat someone down to. My planes tend to find me as well, I didn't look for the last 3 and got great planes at a great value. Karma pays.
 
I have no desire for your plane. When I bought my last plane it was as the owner represented and I paid him his price because the practical value existed as did the parts value, in fact, the salvage value of the engines and props was nearly 200% the asking price. To top it off, the airframe was in pristine condition. I make my decisions based on fair value, not what I can beat someone down to. My planes tend to find me as well, I didn't look for the last 3 and got great planes at a great value. Karma pays.

Sounds to me like you took this poor seller for a bath.... you didn't have to beat him down! You should have offered him more since his asking price was too low.
 
I have an IFR C-150 that I fly all the time. The engine is getting close to TBO now, but may go way past that with minimal problems. The paint looks good, but has a few chips on leading edges, etc. The interior is probably around a 6 out of 10, or maybe a 7. I can go out to the airport, get in and fly anywhere, because the airplane is flown regularly and is dependable. An airplane doesn't have to be pristine to be flyable and provide good service. Most of our airplanes are old and are showing their age a little. Try to be realistic in your expectations and keep looking. There are good airplanes out there!
 
It really is a simple matter of, if you want to fly a beautiful aircraft, you must pay for it.

If you can't buy the aircraft you want with 50% of the money you have for the purchase, you are not ready to buy.

Pay me now, or pay me later.

Do you want to fly your dream? pony up the cash.
Want to fly junk, and build the aircraft you want? pony up the cash.
Money talks, bull sh-t walks.
 
I can provide you a next to new C-150 for $70,000, are you interested?

I can point him to a NEW Savannah S for $71,950 that has a full flap stall speed of 30 mph, 111 mph cruise speed, and 700 lb useful load. SLSA so it can even be used for instruction.
 
There's a nice 182 here for a reasonable price. PM and I'll give you more info.
 
Any advice on where I should be looking?
David - there is a really nice 1968 Cherokee 140 for sale at the field where I'm based just outside of Durham, NC. TT 4697, SMOH 1352, PowerFlow Exhaust, paint (9/10) interior (7/10), glass replaced 2004. Older panel (2 KX170Bs w/ GS), but in really nice shape (owner has spared no expense and is about as meticulous as they get). $26,900. Annual is coming up in December so timing would be great. I've flown in the plane and its a great flyer. Send me a PM with your offline contact email and I'll forward info.
 
They can do what they want, the damage to the market that greed has wrought has been done and hundreds of premium planes are no longer such, therefor no longer available to the market. Shortsighted and greedy buyers turned the older plane market into a cesspool. Now there are no good planes to buy anymore at reasonable value and you either have a choice between cheap **** and next to new with next to new pricing. The people buying the steam panel Cirrus models for <$150k thinking they are getting a deal had better be figuring that they will never be able to sell that plane.

I would buy it over the glass panel. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to fix, same performance. But that is just me, and I am a lunatic.
 
That is the buyer's perspective. When one looks at the seller's perspective of having $130k in a plane 'the market' says will move at $70k, then the seller views the market as under valued and takes the plane off the market or holds out for their price. What has happened in the recent years where buyers would only buy at what desperate people would accept is that they also created a market where mostly junk is for sale since the guys with nice planes have used their extra value and spent the bare minimum dollar they could while they did so, if you're only going to get $70k for it, might as well make it worth $70k. Or even worse, they leave the plane sit.

Hey Henning,

You're on to something.

Life was good right up until the market crash of 08. Lots of planes were north of 200k, and even run-out 172s generated bidding wars.

Lots of people had lots of money tied up in lots of airplanes. And not just the airplanes themselves, but tens of AMUs worth of glittery new avionics as well. Some seriously cherry birds were out there.

When the crash hit, those who were cash poor or overextended had to bail out and took some serious losses. Those on the sidelines with cash snapped up some incredible bargains. TR182RGs, which had sold for 225k the year before were fire sale-ed at $115-120k. For the most part, those people have held on to their bargains. When they sell, and it is a trickle, they sell quickly, and by word of mouth.

Those who put a lot of money in their birds, but had the money to hang on to them, kept them. Some people could no longer afford to fly (or for whatever reason, like a medical issue, couldn't), and refused to sell at the bargain basement prices. So they pushed their airplanes to the back of the hangar and padlocked the door.

What's left, and what you seen on TAP, Controller, etc, is the "churn". Either seriously outdated, cosmetically unappealing or in need of mechanical work. Some are recoverable, but only at the right price and if you happen to be an A&P with some spare time.

There are also some clean birds, but unrealistic owners asking 2006 prices.

In either case, those airplanes languish. The clock ticks, and rubber degrades, metal corrodes, and every day that passes makes the airplane that much harder to sell.

So Henning is right. The crash created unrealistic expectations that you are going to get a cherry 182, with a full Garmin glass (what? Just a 530? how pedestrian!), new paint and full AirMod interior for $65k, when in fact, that same bird in 2005 would have commanded $250k at least.

The problem that this has created is that the residual value of an airframe is so low, that there is zero incentive to upgrade aircraft. You'll never get your money out of the paint/interior/engine, let alone new avionics (which, oddly, everyone demands, but no one wants to pay for). As a result, the crappy gets crappier and the nice aircraft become rare.

You pays your dollar, you takes your choice.

Richman
 
Sounds to me like you took this poor seller for a bath.... you didn't have to beat him down! You should have offered him more since his asking price was too low.

No, he was priced at the top of the market for that vintage plane with an old panel. He also wanted it out of the hangar because he just bought a new project RV. I got a call before the plane hit the market. That's really the only way to find nice planes and deals because they rarely hit the ads. Typically they go word of mouth.
 
I would buy it over the glass panel. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to fix, same performance. But that is just me, and I am a lunatic.

How much will you pay for it? There's a bunch advertised for <$150k. As for buying a traveling plane with no glass, yep, that takes a lunatic any more. Enjoy the Luddite life.
 
Would you buy a Cessna 150 and then sell it back to the original seller in annual (don't bend it don't break it) for less than you paid for it? (something agreed upon related to the time flown)
If you liked it ( or flew it to the point it made no sense to sell it back ) just keep it?
Maintain it , improvements you make taken into consideration on the buy back price? Keep in mind that improvements you make may not mean anything to the original owner without discussion?
Is this legal? ( I ask this just to give the internet lawyers something to chew on) I don't really care.
 
I can point him to a NEW Savannah S for $71,950 that has a full flap stall speed of 30 mph, 111 mph cruise speed, and 700 lb useful load. SLSA so it can even be used for instruction.

There you go, yet another example.
 
Here is one close to you that can be bought for $10K, yes it has a high time C-145, but at this price so what?
It will do every thing you required in your post. 1-828-406-6459 talk to Tony.

Too cheap must be cheap ****.:D;)

I'm still flying my cheap broke a$$ stuff and enjoying it.:yesnod:
 
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Its great that at 430 am when i cant sleep i can come here and feel all the love
 
Would you buy a Cessna 150 and then sell it back to the original seller in annual (don't bend it don't break it) for less than you paid for it? (something agreed upon related to the time flown)
If you liked it ( or flew it to the point it made no sense to sell it back ) just keep it?
Maintain it , improvements you make taken into consideration on the buy back price? Keep in mind that improvements you make may not mean anything to the original owner without discussion?
Is this legal? ( I ask this just to give the internet lawyers something to chew on) I don't really care.

Sounds pretty legal to me. In fact I've advertised this locally but no one has bitten yet. Basically I want to buy a plane, or preferably a share in a plane, with the option to sell it back later, at a predefined price lower than the initial price. I may have to move soon so I don't want to get stuck in a partnership. (I assume selling a share in a partnership is harder than selling an entire plane, since you are limited to the local region, which in my case is a smallish Midwestern city. And I wouldn't be able to use the plane while waiting for the share to sell).
 
I've been scouring Trade-A-Plane and Barnstormers looking for a good plane to finish my PPL in for the last few months. Most of what I have seen on those sites have sat on the market for an extended amount of time with high-time engines and extremely poor avionics. What am I missing? I can't seem to get an idea of what the market actually is.

I've been reading through the forum and it looks like several have found good luck in securing a plane through word-of-mouth. The message boards at the FBO's I've been around have been relatively bare.

The rentals in my area aren't in very good condition and scheduling seems to be nearly impossible.

Any advice on where I should be looking?:dunno:David

Keep looking everywhere ... it's going to take awhile. I spent a year and a half finding a plane (there are messages saying 3 months is too long, they're either in an area with a lot of prospects or full of sh*t).

I eliminated the crap and chaff down to one plane to view per quarter minimally. No matter how hard you try, there are going to be sellers that lie on the phone or with hold scanned logs until you arrive, then suddenly SURPRISE, the NDH aircraft you went to review has some that wasn't disclosed. Or the owner made multiple repairs without an A&P and did a poor job covering it. I bought my plane in 2009. Am currently beginning to decide on trading it for an RV-7 as I no longer need 4 seats. Am guessing that I'll have to sell it outright first, then hunt down the RV.
 
You are correct, the Grumman's have a following. I just sold the 1972 Grumman Traveler I bought in 2011 to get my PPL. I finally got the PPL this summer and immediately upgraded to a 2003 Tiger. I absolutely loved my Traveler and was very pleased with the ease of maintenance. If you get a Grumman, you will probably stay with them.
 
Keep looking everywhere ... it's going to take awhile. I spent a year and a half finding a plane (there are messages saying 3 months is too long, they're either in an area with a lot of prospects or full of sh*t).

I eliminated the crap and chaff down to one plane to view per quarter minimally. No matter how hard you try, there are going to be sellers that lie on the phone or with hold scanned logs until you arrive, then suddenly SURPRISE, the NDH aircraft you went to review has some that wasn't disclosed. Or the owner made multiple repairs without an A&P and did a poor job covering it. I bought my plane in 2009. Am currently beginning to decide on trading it for an RV-7 as I no longer need 4 seats. Am guessing that I'll have to sell it outright first, then hunt down the RV.

I've gone to look at two planes, and have experienced that. Luckily they were semi-local.

It's pretty easy to get a little burned out and bitter looking at all the online ads, wondering why people are asking top dollar as you look through their pictures. But all I know about plane prices is post-2008 market crash.

To help plane prices, prices of everything else needs a correction. Avionics, mostly. With the cost of decent gear, I'm starting to see why some are priced as they are.
 
I've gone to look at two planes, and have experienced that. Luckily they were semi-local.

It's pretty easy to get a little burned out and bitter looking at all the online ads, wondering why people are asking top dollar as you look through their pictures. But all I know about plane prices is post-2008 market crash.

To help plane prices, prices of everything else needs a correction. Avionics, mostly. With the cost of decent gear, I'm starting to see why some are priced as they are.

Have you tried using a pro who knows the industry help you find one? Most people wouldn't think about buying a house without a realtor.
 
Have you tried using a pro who knows the industry help you find one? Most people wouldn't think about buying a house without a realtor.


You're talking to a guy that just sold his own house because he sees no use for realtors. :yesnod:

I finding planes, its just taking time. Not like buying a used car at all.
Its been a good education for me, starting to learn more about the market and why things are priced where they are sometimes.

Do you think sellers are considering that their planes will need ADS-B compliance for class-c in the near future? That's at least $5-6K right there, which is something to consider when looking at the price range I'm in.
 
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