looking at Buying a plane, need advice

[farmerbrake]

Hey guys,
New to the forum, so a brief intro (If you don't want to read about me just skip to the questions, I care more about them ):
I got my PPL (Hoping that's the right abbreviation for the private license) back in May of this year. It took me about a year and a half to get it. All my training was done at the local airport in a 172. I love flying, thinking of making it a career of some sort in addition to the family dairy farm (if you have suggestions please PM me. this thread is about something different)

Anyways, I'm interested in buying a plane. A guy is selling his '74 Archer. I'm trying to figure out as much as I can, since I still consider myself a newbie, as to make informed decisions. I had a few questions:

*I realize costs will vary depending on the location, I'm just trying to get an idea.
1. The exterior and Interior are all original. Both aren't in terrible. condition I don't think, but will need updated eventually. What would be a general cost for redoing interior exterior on an archer?
2. The engine has around 120 SMOH, but has not been flown much (5 hrs maybe) since the last annual (Annual was completed aug. 13 so it needs a new one). Would a pre-buy look at the condition of the engine (I know it does but to what extent)? Should I be concerned at all with it being flown so very little?
3. What is the average cost of a prop overhaul, or a new prop? I can't remember the time, but I know it is a lower hour prop.
4. Cost of annual?
5. cost of engine overhaul?
6. What about insurance cost? I currently use AOPA for renter insurance.
7. Any other advice you have about buying an archer/ first plane?

Sorry for the long post. If this is in the wrong part of the forum I also apologize.
Happy flying, and thanks in advance!

 

[Mistake Not...]

Welcome.

I can't give you numbers (I own a mooney), but I will say you might have a chance to do something I'd love to do... walk out of my house and get in my plane. Any way you can fly it off the farm?

 

[Jeff K]

I'm sure some others will chime in, and those are all good questions and a good plane type, but I'll cut to the chase (your question #7) and suggest you engage a buyer's broker. It's how I bought my first plane and a good one can be well worth it.

 

[farmerbrake]

Potentially.... Dad and I have been discussing that. It would take some work to fix up part of a field for a landing strip, plus if we wanted to build a hangar... It's something that we've toyed around with.

I think I know what you mean, but could you explain a "Buyer Broker" just incase? And where one might look to find one?

 

[frfly172]

Have you had a pre purchase inspection? The low time engine is not great if the airplane has not flown . Annual can run from a grand all the way up ,depending on what needs to be fixed. Engine overhaul for the archer probably starts at 18 k and up. By the way welcome to the forum. You need to do some research on current prices. Good luck.

 

[Badger]

Where are you located? State

 

[Jeff K]

I think I know what you mean, but could you explain a "Buyer Broker" just incase? And where one might look to find one?

It's a broker who works for you... not the seller. You pay them a fee or percentage to find an airplane.

I used the FBO owner at my home field. Told him what I wanted (a Cardinal), how much I had to spend. He did all the phone calls and pre-screening. Would bring a number of planes to me. And I ended up getting a Cherokee 180 as he suggested I consider it as he had found a good deal on one that would suit my needs. We flew out there in his twin with the mechanic, did a prebuy at the seller's field and I flew the plane home after paying the seller. He had done the title/337 search before we left.

All told that cost me $2000 including the pre-buy.

 

[farmerbrake]

We have not done a pre-purchase inspection yet. Not quite at that stage of the game, I don't think at least. As you said, need to do some more research on prices which is why I am here. I have a few ideas on prices but I wanted to get specifics for this type of plane and not try and interpret $$$.

Not sure if this makes a difference but here is a little background on the plane/seller:
The seller is a member of the Mason's Lodge with my grandfather and Great Uncle. Local business man who bought the plane new. He lost his medical about 2 years ago so his son flies the plane when he is in the area, but he didn't get as much chance to come up this year. Plane was listed at the end of last year but he took the ad down (not sure why). He had talked about relisting it but just hasn't yet. I've talked to him/ looked at plane about 3 times now. Haven't flown it, don't really want to be the first one to do it since it hasn't been flown for a while plus with me being a low time newbie. He told me what he was asking, In my un-professional opinion it is a little steep but I haven't said anything about it.

State is PA.

 

[farmerbrake]

It's a broker who works for you... not the seller. You pay them a fee or percentage to find an airplane.

I used the FBO owner at my home field. Told him what I wanted (a Cardinal), how much I had to spend. He did all the phone calls and pre-screening. Would bring a number of planes to me. And I ended up getting a Cherokee 180 as he suggested I consider it as he had found a good deal on one that would suit my needs. We flew out there in his twin with the mechanic, did a prebuy at the seller's field and I flew the plane home after paying the seller. He had done the title/337 search before we left.

All told that cost me $2000 including the pre-buy.

That's what I figured you meant. Wow. Quick turn around. I might look into having someone do something like that for me.

 

[CTLSi]

You might want to think about an STOL instead. What's your mission?

 

[txflyer]

If you learned in a 172 OP, I'd stick with a Cessna imo, especially if I had a dairy farm that I could build a strip on. The utility of landing at your house is beyond measure. Ask me how I know ...

And you can't beat Clyde's simple design that you can still find parts for and get worked on anywhere.

Train up into a 182 then make up your mind. You're going to want one eventually anyway. Or a King Katmai or take Dad for a ride in a 206. You're a farm boy. Fly like one. I'm a ranch boy. :wink2:

 

[farmerbrake]

Build time for instrument/commercial/etc. Personal use. Something that can haul 3-4 people with luggage for a weekend trip or something.
My dad might be interested in getting his license (i'm the first in the family to get it) so could be used for that as well.
What would you recommend I look at for a STOL plane?

 

[Dan H]

First of all, welcome. Dairy farmer, Wisconsin or New York?
I'll give ya my 2 cents worth, it's the internet.

1. 10 to 12K for exterior, 5ish and up for the interior.
2. Lycoming O360, excellent engine, but 5hrs in the last year how long since the major, time wise?
3.Lower time prop, wouldn't worry about it. My prop overhaul on my 235 was $3800 and it's a constant speed, the Archer is fixed pitch, should be less.
4.Archers are dead simple, but the first annual for a new owner can sometimes be eyeopening. My first annual was north of 6kish, every year since has been around 1k.
5. 20 to 30k
6. 1500 to 2kish for a new pilot, maybe a smidge more, but after the first year it'll drop quite a bit.
7.Archers are great first planes, many times your last plane also.

One other thing, what's in the panel? A 430 and a good autopilot make a big difference

Lastly, listen to Jeff K, he knows how to buy planes.

 

[farmerbrake]

If you learned in a 172 OP, I'd stick with a Cessna imo, especially if I had a dairy farm that I could build a strip on. The utility of landing at your house is beyond measure. Ask me how I know ...

And you can't beat Clyde's simple design that you can still find parts for and get worked on anywhere.

Train up into a 182 then make up your mind. You're going to want one eventually anyway. Or a King Katmai or take Dad for a ride in a 206. You're a farm boy. Fly like one. I'm a ranch boy. :wink2:

one word, SWEETNESS. I need to make some new friends at the airport. It's a small flight school, we only have a 172, a PA28-140 and a PA28-181. I'm getting checked out in the archer tomorrow . the littler Cherokee is too small for what I want. I'll be doing a XC in the archer to take some stuff to family in Pittsburgh (hey I need to build hours right?) so I'll get a feel for a low-wing.

Probably a stupid questions, but how does the 182 compare size wise to a 172? Again, I think I know but I just like confirmation.

 

[txflyer]

Build time for instrument/commercial/etc. Personal use. Something that can haul 3-4 people with luggage for a weekend trip or something.
My dad might be interested in getting his license (i'm the first in the family to get it) so could be used for that as well.
What would you recommend I look at for a STOL plane?

4 people with luggage for the weekend? ..

A Cessna 208. Seriously.

That's the only way everyone's going to be comfortable and you not worried about w&b.

 

[farmerbrake]

First of all, welcome. Dairy farmer, Wisconsin or New York?
I'll give ya my 2 cents worth, it's the internet.

1. 10 to 12K for exterior, 5ish and up for the interior.
2. Lycoming O360, excellent engine, but 5hrs in the last year how long since the major, time wise?
3.Lower time prop, wouldn't worry about it. My prop overhaul on my 235 was $3800 and it's a constant speed, the Archer is fixed pitch, should be less.
4.Archers are dead simple, but the first annual for a new owner can sometimes be eyeopening. My first annual was north of 6kish, every year since has been around 1k.
5. 20 to 30k
6. 1500 to 2kish for a new pilot, maybe a smidge more, but after the first year it'll drop quite a bit.
7.Archers are great first planes, many times your last plane also.

One other thing, what's in the panel? A 430 and a good autopilot make a big difference

Lastly, listen to Jeff K, he knows how to buy planes.

I believe the last Major OH was done within the last 7 years. Don't quote me on that, I want to ask the guy if I look through the log books on my own time. Through reading I learned the first annual is a steeper one.
Thanks for all the tips/advice/knowledge so far guys!

Ok so maybe 4 ppl and luggage for weekend is my DREAM use (we all have these right?). A 208 is out of budget.
EDIT: just to clarify, when I said 3-4 people I was including myself. Maybe a stupid newb edit.

 

[txflyer]

I was a little harsh.

A 182 will do four people with bags if they're not huge people, and not huge bags.

If an archer's the budget, then get an Archer. Anything you can afford to fly is better than dreaming about flying something else.

 

[farmerbrake]

I was a little harsh.

A 182 will do four people with bags if they're not huge people, and not huge bags.

If an archer's the budget, then get an Archer. Anything you can afford to fly is better than dreaming about flying something else.

It's all good. Youngest of 5 kids, I can take a little abuse.
I haven't found a 182 nearby yet to go and take a look at. I do enjoy the high wing for a multiple of reasons. Only have about 4 hours in a low wing so far, 3 of that in a Warrior.

 

[somorris]

Welcome Farmerbrake!

The C-182 is quite a bit more airplane than a C-172, but just about as easy to fly. Heavier on the controls, so you need to be on top of the trim wheel. Cruise in the range of 130 kts (maybe a little more), roomier than a 172. Constant speed prop, which costs a bit more to keep up. Burns more gas as well. In my opinion, a 182 would be much better if you plan to operate off your farm. 182 is much easier to get in and out of, especially for us older folks than an Archer, and if it is raining, you can get in and out without getting everything inside wet.

 

[farmerbrake]

Welcome Farmerbrake!

The C-182 is quite a bit more airplane than a C-172, but just about as easy to fly. Heavier on the controls, so you need to be on top of the trim wheel. Cruise in the range of 130 kts (maybe a little more), roomier than a 172. Constant speed prop, which costs a bit more to keep up. Burns more gas as well. In my opinion, a 182 would be much better if you plan to operate off your farm. 182 is much easier to get in and out of, especially for us older folks....

I guess I should take that into consideration as well. Both sets of grandparents are 79 - 81 yrs old, still in amazing health as they all help on the farm at some point or another . I guess It is the idea of the added maintenance (2 extra cylinders, constant speed prop) plus higher fuel that has me a little concerned.

 

[Theboys]

I like cessna's also, but archer is good economical plane you can have a lot of fun in. I'm guessing will fly very simular to warrior with more power so if you like that you should be happy. I have several planes, low wing and high wing and they both have plus,s and minus,s. Like ford and chevy. I'm thinking engine is going to be okay. Avionics can be one of the most expensive things. What it has there and if it has working autopilot are pretty important. You can sink more in those than paint,interior, engine combined. Archers bring a pretty good price usually. You might want to fly in it some before you get real serious. I always thought I'd like a beech so bought one. When I flew it home I didn't really care for it. Other people love them. I just didn't really. One thing about early 182 is you can get a auto gas stc. That will offset the cost of extra fuel plus.

 

[somorris]

I can understand your concern. You might also want to look at Maules. They need to be kept in a hangar, but are good "off road" airplanes and are not as expensive as Cessnas. Get one with the patroller doors and you can write it off as a farm inspection vehicle .

 

[farmerbrake]

I like cessna's also, but archer is good economical plane you can have a lot of fun in. I'm guessing will fly very simular to warrior with more power so if you like that you should be happy. I have several planes, low wing and high wing and they both have plus,s and minus,s. Like ford and chevy. I'm thinking engine is going to be okay. Avionics can be one of the most expensive things. What it has there and if it has working autopilot are pretty important. You can sink more in those than paint,interior, engine combined. Archers bring a pretty good price usually. You might want to fly in it some before you get real serious. I always thought I'd like a beech so bought one. When I flew it home I didn't really care for it. Other people love them. I just didn't really.

Thanks for the input. Of course its like ford and chevy, neither can get it quite as right as DODGE! . That's the reason I am getting checked out In the flight schools archer, so I can get some time in one before making a decision.

 

[somorris]

Another thing to think about if you live or plan to fly in or near controlled airspace is that January 1, 2020, you will have to have ADS-B out. My understanding is that you will need a WAAS GPS in the airplane to interface with the ADS-B. Adding a WAAS GPS and an ADS-B transmitter would likely run into the double digit AMU's. I still haven't decided what to do. I am under a Class B shelf.

 

[txflyer]

Already the things that have been mentioned point to a 182.

Four people, STOL, farm strips, weekend Granny, kids, dogs, maybe a pig ...

There are planes that maybe can do it better, but they are far and few between.

 

[somorris]

Not sure about the extra costs at annual time, but a 182 burns somewhere north of 12 gph while a 172 is around 9 or so. 3 gph X $6/gallon = $18 more for every hour you fly. I have a friend that had a 182 and he told me no matter what he did, it burned 14 gph. If I were buying right now though, I would opt for the 182. It is a lot of airplane for the money, in my opinion.

 

[CTLSi]

Thanks for the input. Of course its like ford and chevy, neither can get it quite as right as DODGE! . That's the reason I am getting checked out In the flight schools archer, so I can get some time in one before making a decision.

Given you are rural, you really should check this out, or something like it. It doesnt matter what you learned in, once you learn to fly you can fly anything in class.

Sky Jeep http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/index1.html
Aerotrek http://www.aerotrek.aero/
Just Aircraft Super STOL http://justaircraft.com/index.php?45#gsc.tab=0

 

[iflyvfr]

I own a 172 and recently sat in an Archer. I found it claustrophobic and getting in and out to be tough. But I'm 49 YO and 250 lbs. If you are skinny and/or younger, won't be a big deal at all.

The high wing has the advantage of providing cover if you camp.

 

[farmerbrake]

Already the things that have been mentioned point to a 182.

Four people, STOL, farm strips, weekend Granny, kids, dogs, maybe a pig ...

There are planes that maybe can do it better, but they are far and few between.

Haha, pigs? How bout a cow? can the 182 hold a cow? jk. I'll start looking into the 182 more in depth. any particular year I should look at?

 

[somorris]

The high wing has the advantage of providing cover if you camp.

And shade, which is important down here in the Memphis area, especially this week .

 

[Theboys]

I think a p model is last model you could get Mogas stc for but I might be mistaken.

 

[farmerbrake]

I think a p model is last model you could get Mogas stc for but I might be mistaken.

Translation please (I understand the p model)....

 

[somorris]

Mogas is gas from down at the corner station, without Ethynol.

 

[Mason]

4 people with luggage for the weekend? ..

A Cessna 208. Seriously.

That's the only way everyone's going to be comfortable and you not worried about w&b.

A 182 can do that easily if you don't overdo the luggage.

A 182 can do short fields, soft fields. Grass. The older ones can do Mogas. I guess you could say I am partial to 182s. YMMV.

 

[farmerbrake]

Mogas is gas from down at the corner station, without Ethynol.

As in aviation fuel without ethynol or auto fuel without ethynol? My brain is starting to shut down for the day... So many things to think about thanks to the helpfulness of this forum!

 

[Theboys]

Car gas without alcohol. Like 2 bucks per gallon cheaper. Especially if you have strip on your farm. They run just fine on it.

 

[farmerbrake]

... 182.... car fuel .... hmmmm.... I had seen a few while cruising through trade-a-plane and controller but never gave it a whole lot of merit till just now!

 

[dans2992]

4 people with luggage for the weekend? ..



A Cessna 208. Seriously.



That's the only way everyone's going to be comfortable and you not worried about w&b.

Uhh, are you hauling elephants?

 

[mrkbbd]

-Budget 25k for the overhaul (just had the motor in my plane o/h'd and it is the same one that is in the Archer) because you'll want stuff like new Barry Mounts and other stuff and it adds up
-Prop overhaul = $1,500; new prop for the archer is $4,330 from Sens. (literally just bought one in November)
-assume $1,200 flat rate for the inspection - then probably on average another $1,000 in discrepancies, first annual probably closer to 6k though as generally lots of deferred maintenance when it comes time to sell...
-budget $5 / flt hr for general maintenance
-budget $20 / flt hr for engine / prop reserve / major airframe stuff
-insurance with a $50k hull value and $100k/1mm limits probably about $1500
-oil change every 6 months or 50hrs at about $250 w/ the oil (I like the Philips XC20W-50)
-I wouldn't be surprised if that low time engine needs a cam and a cylinder or two pretty soon, the lycoming cams don't sit in oil like the Continentals, so they tend to rust easier if they aren't used, a new cam is about $2k, sometimes can overhaul, but costs money to get to it - a new cylinder is about $1100 from superior, or OH the ones in there are likely around $500 assuming no parts needed.
-everyone I know with an Archer has broken their door latch pretty quickly, and that is about $1,000 to fix

The first year, you're going to have stuff pop up that you want fixed, so consider that as well. I'm also a big believer in engine monitors, so a JPI 700 is probably 2k installed. Also, very likely the autocontroll II is inop, I was looking at Archers and the only ones with legitimately functioning (not intermittent) autopilots in my price range were upgraded to stec 30s

Hope this helps - good luck with purchase. May want to consider finding a partner or two so you can share costs and "learn" about aircraft ownership together with lower risk to any one of you. Insurance will be more expensive though naturally.

 

[3393RP]

I can understand your concern. You might also want to look at Maules. They need to be kept in a hangar, but are good "off road" airplanes and are not as expensive as Cessnas. Get one with the patroller doors and you can write it off as a farm inspection vehicle .

Given you are rural, you really should check this out, or something like it. It doesnt matter what you learned in, once you learn to fly you can fly anything in class.

Sky Jeep http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/index1.html
Aerotrek http://www.aerotrek.aero/
Just Aircraft Super STOL http://justaircraft.com/index.php?45#gsc.tab=0

The OP learned to fly at an airport and mentioned he might consider building a runway on the farm...and people start recommending bush planes?

He should at least explore the possibility of buying the Archer. It might be a good deal. An airplane with original paint and interior should be inexpensive, and if it's mechanically sound he can build time in it cheaply.

The OP is a new pilot.

In a situation like this it's much more helpful to give advice about methods and general issues to explore instead of pages of posts that say 'Buy this!' 'No, buy this!'...