Look inside or out?

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Mtns2Skies

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Mtns2Skies
My previous CFI always said to look inside the cockpit to pull flaps up on a touch and go because if you get in the habit of doing so you may hit the gear switch inadvertently. My current CFI says reach don't look, his reasoning is that if you look inside on the go you may veer off the runway. Which would you recommend?
 
Mtns2Skies said:
My previous CFI always said to look inside the cockpit to pull flaps up on a touch and go because if you get in the habit of doing so you may hit the gear switch inadvertently. My current CFI says reach don't look, his reasoning is that if you look inside on the go you may veer off the runway. Which would you recommend?
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Sounds like another reason:
1 - To never do touch and goes in a complex aircraft, and
2 - To stop doing touch and goes after you finish your license.

In a non-complex trainer, I would say your CFI is right. I keep my eyes outside and almost never look at the controls.
If I were in a complex aircraft, I would take a half-second and verify that I have the flaps and not gear.
 
Cessna 150, 172, no gear to retract.
Piper trainers, Johnson bar flap handle.
Older complex aircraft had location of gear and flap switches on opposite sides of the throttle and would vary by manufacture, orby model. Led to a lot of inadvertent gear retraction on bonanzas.

Standard is to not be flipping switches while still on the runway, taxi clear and stop.
HOWEVER, for T&G operations, you need a very practiced routine, and as discussed in another thread, the routine is different from a go around or missed approach.

Without a second pilot or CFI on board, are T&G really needed?
 
How long does it take to glance in and see where your hand is?
 
BillTIZ said:
Cessna 150, 172, no gear to retract.
Piper trainers, Johnson bar flap handle.


Without a second pilot or CFI on board, are T&G really needed?
Click to expand...

The point my first CFI made was the habit of doing so, then switching to complex would cause you to pull the gear up.

Debating whether or not T&G's are necessary is not answering my question.
 
I think he's nuts. Ask him how many accidents occur from grabbing the wrong knob. If he hesistates, tell him to call Bill Mitchell.

Mtns2Skies said:
My previous CFI always said to look inside the cockpit to pull flaps up on a touch and go because if you get in the habit of doing so you may hit the gear switch inadvertently. My current CFI says reach don't look, his reasoning is that if you look inside on the go you may veer off the runway. Which would you recommend?
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
I think he's nuts. Ask him how many accidents occur from grabbing the wrong knob. If he hesistates, tell him to call Bill Mitchell.
Click to expand...

I have a ton of respect for that CFI thank you. Ive been through about 7 CFI's and he remains my favorite. And as a matter of fact the Piper Arrow at our flight school had that exact issue.
 
The complexes that I've flown have gear and flap handles that are very different in location/feel/look.

That's all I'm sayin'
 
In that case, you haven't flown enough of them to understand a big part of the wrong-knob problem. It can (and frequently) does happen even with good ergonomics. Brain waves are strong drivers of human behavior, but they're not always right, especially when they are under pressure or in a hurry. Primacy, recency and all those other learning issues also come into play. The "but I would have sworn I moved the ______ rather than the _______" comments are quite common in accident post-mortems.

For years, Beech placed the gear knob on the R/H side and flaps on the L/H side, most other mfrs did it the opposite way. Then Beech changed to match up with everybody else. Guess what happened then?

Skylane81E said:
The complexes that I've flown have gear and flap handles that are very different in location/feel/look.

That's all I'm sayin'
Click to expand...
 
One of the first instructors I flew with blindfolded me before we did the preflight. He wouldn't let us go flying until I could operate all the essential stuff by touch and thinking in flow patterns, not checklist items. When you do that, you know where things are instinctively. The only exception was retractables and if there were things like bomb release switches...and you should be able to reach and touch first then --->

Tom-D said:
How long does it take to glance in and see where your hand is?
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Do that before moving anything that is likely to cause big problems.
 
fgcason said:
One of the first instructors I flew with blindfolded me before we did the preflight. He wouldn't let us go flying until I could operate all the essential stuff by touch and thinking in flow patterns, not checklist items. When you do that, you know where things are instinctively. The only exception was retractables and if there were things like bomb release switches...and you should be able to reach and touch first then --->



Do that before moving anything that is likely to cause big problems.
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It ctually requires that you must take this Idea 1 step farther.

For example when operating on amphib floats, you must actually say, " I'm landing on Water, the gear should be up" put the gear handle in the up position and never touch it again.

Doing GUMPS checks 4-5 times in the pattern leads you to revert to habit, and putting the gear down for landing, which gets pretty ugly.

I think the basic idea in this thread is to develop good habit patterns during the training period and the rules are.

stay head of the aircraft, know what the next operation is going to be, and do it correctly and do it once, then move on.

Know exactly how the aircraft is going to respond when you throw that lever click that switch, or twist that knob. If it does not respond as you think it should go back and figure it out before moving on.
 
And understand the reason for some of the old bits of advice, like leaving your hand on the gear switch until the light turns green. If you've ever had a gear cycle part-way and stop (like when the Jepp book in the floor jams the handle on a Comanche) it becomes pretty clear why that is a good idea.

Tom-D said:
Know exactly how the aircraft is going to respond when you throw that lever click that switch, or twist that knob. If it does not respond as you think it should go back and figure it out before moving on.
Click to expand...
 
Tom-D said:
It ctually requires that you must take this Idea 1 step farther.
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's about actually knowing what you're doing and what you're doing it with. Full systems and environment understanding, not rote memorization of a checklist.
It's the difference between looking and actual observation. It's a whole philosophy about real world practical application.
 
fgcason said:
Full systems and environment understanding, not rote memorization of a checklist.
Click to expand...
Precisely. Understand why you are about to do something, and why it's being done, and what the expected outcome and potential issues are.
It's the difference between looking and actual observation.
Click to expand...
Those words should be engraved on every glareshield.
 
Skylane81E said:
The complexes that I've flown have gear and flap handles that are very different in location/feel/look.

That's all I'm sayin'
Click to expand...
The Deb has flaps on left, gear on right, and the switches both work in a pretty similar manner (pull out and move up or down). Some of the later models are flipped the other direction.

I often switch which seat I'm flying it from which changes which switch is nearest to me. I just don't do touch and goes. It's not hard to just bring it to a stop on the runway.
 
I think it depends alot on the airplane - here's two extremes:

In most Pipers, you pretty much would have to have a full case of cranial-anal inversion syndrome to confuse the gear and the flaps. My eyes are always outside in the Pipers.

Now at the other end of the spectrum is the DC-3. in the Gooney, PNF had better be looking at the lever before operating it (flap and gear levers are both mounted low on the left hand side of the co-pilots seat and are virtually identical except the gear handle is usually red and the flaps are usually yellow).
 
Im not so much speaking about a specific aircraft so much as the practice of looking inside or out in either case, eg. If you're used to a C-172 and then move to an Arrow in the club you then run the risk of pulling the gear up.
 
Ever fly xxx model with yyy gear?

No. But in most COMMON complex trainers, like the Arrow, for example, you'd have to be mighty stupid to mistake the gear switch for the flaps switch (which happens to be a giant bar between the seats in the Arrow).

These discussions need to be aircraft specific: Arrows are fine to do T&Gs in. Beeches with the similar knobs? Probably not. But banning all T&Gs because of the mistakes that are very aircraft specific is just dumb and often a waste of money.

It'd be like saying "You should never spin any aircraft, because you can't spin Yankees. If you're doing spins, you're asking for trouble."
 
SkyHog said:
But banning all T&Gs because of the mistakes that are very aircraft specific is just dumb and often a waste of money.

It'd be like saying "You should never spin any aircraft, because you can't spin Yankees. If you're doing spins, you're asking for trouble."
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+1 agreed
 
I think Austin's question was should you look or not, and I think the answer to that is that you should look and confirm what you are doing before you flip any kind of lever or switch in an airplane. If you can't keep going straight down the runway while you are doing that then maybe you shouldn't be doing touch and goes. However, I wouldn't advocate a blanket ban on touch and goes.
 
Everskyward said:
I think Austin's question was should you look or not, and I think the answer to that is that you should look and confirm what you are doing before you flip any kind of lever or switch in an airplane. If you can't keep going straight down the runway while you are doing that then maybe you shouldn't be doing touch and goes. However, I wouldn't advocate a blanket ban on touch and goes.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mari wasn't entirely sure what the moral here was...
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Are you recommending a stop and go or full stop taxi back?
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If there is adequate remaining runway I do stop and goes. I do them with my primary students as well in a (C150), because it gives them time to think.
 
Well if in doubt, do not change configuration while on the touch n go. There, problem solved. Keeps you safe.

If you can't safely complete the following touch n go without the absolute requirement for a configuration change in haste (the presumption is that you're so task saturated with the task of configuration change while in the touch n go, that switch misidentification is highly probable in your mind), then you got bigger problems in the task management, SA, and planning areas of airmanship.

I go back to all the piston complex aircraft I've flown and though I never had a problem making configuration changes on touch n go ground roll, I never NEEDED said configuration change to effect the touch n go to obstacle clearance as required by present conditions. Which is to say I didn't need to effect a configuration change, I only did so for bonus points. So if you're that concerned about your task saturation, don't touch it, just go. :) Stay safe!

As to looking inside or out, good God brother, look INSIDE without sacrificing aircraft control (combination of peripheral vision to maintain track and minimum time required focusing on the switch, accomplishes this) and confirm the damn switch. If you can't accomplish this, just go without the change! :) What's the point of keeping your eyes safely outside when you flip the wrong switch and suck up the gear now. :D
 
It's easy to say that you won't make the mistake - but every year pilots do. Just not something I want to teach or expose myself to as an instructor in expensive airplanes. It isn't hard to stop.

You'd be surprised how many pilots I see that think stopping is stupid forget their carb heat on, or forget to properly set the trim, or forget their flaps down. It's not just complex aircraft where it can be an issue.
 
Kind of reminds me of a go-around. The worst I've forgotten (so far.. crosses fingers.. knocks on wood) during a touch and go is carb heat, and I noticed a difference on the climb. But, as Jesse pointed out, forgetting trim and flaps really could spell disaster. Try having a high performance plane trimmed out for a low power descent with flaps, and then go full power (go around? or touch and go?) and forget trim, you'll have an amazing amount of force to over come, possibly leading to a stall or just loss of control.
 
For carb heat in Cessnas I extend my thumb and always push both carb heat and throttle forward at the same time for go-around power. Thumb forward so it "leads".
 
Mtns2Skies said:
My previous CFI always said to look inside the cockpit to pull flaps up on a touch and go because if you get in the habit of doing so you may hit the gear switch inadvertently. My current CFI says reach don't look, his reasoning is that if you look inside on the go you may veer off the runway. Which would you recommend?
Click to expand...


I'd touch, and confirm by looking, before operating any control. You should be able to do this in milliseconds without veering off the runway. A glance at where your hand is is all it takes.
 
Your eyes should be outside of the cockpit 99% when VFR, which includes anything near the runway until you're category IIIc rated.

Glance for three green whenever you need it solves any problems with flap vs gear switches on those planes that make the switches too similar and too close.

Everything else should be peripheral vision or touch while you're looking outside.

Last thing you want is "I'm sorry, NTSB, I didn't see the debris/NORDO plane/etc on the runway because I wasn't looking outside at that moment..."
 
wabower said:
I think he's nuts. Ask him how many accidents occur from grabbing the wrong knob. If he hesistates, tell him to call Bill Mitchell.
Click to expand...


Bill didn't grab the wrong lever, he moved the one he intended to move, just at the wrong time IIRC.
 
TMetzinger said:
I'd touch, and confirm by looking, before operating any control. You should be able to do this in milliseconds without veering off the runway. A glance at where your hand is is all it takes.
Click to expand...


You can also confirm by touching. Gear will have a vertical wheel, flaps will have a horizontal blade "flap". Although personally I see no reason not to work visual confirmation into your cockpit scan. If the situation is that tight that you can't look at your hand and you don't know flaps from gear by feel, a Touch and Go probably is not in your best interest.
 
I guess years of working in darkrooms and as a mechanic has me accustomed to working strictly by feel.
 
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