Long XC for commercial/ instrument in LSA?

[RalphInCA]

Does anyone know if it is acceptable to do the long cross countries required for instrument / commercial in a LSA?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Commercial, sure. Instrument? Not sure. If the airplane can meet all the legal requirements to do that cross country, no problem. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes, it is. The Commercial long solo XC is easy -- no issue, good to go. For the long IFR XC for the IR, if you're flying one of the two LSA's currently approved for IFR (Evektor Sportstar and one of the Zeniths), you can just file IFR and go. However, for all the other LSA's (i.e., aircraft which are not approved for IFR flight in their type certificate), you must comply with the following from FAA Order 8900.1:

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, §§ 91.109, 91.205, and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413. An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

B. Type Certificate Data. Appropriate type certificate data will indicate whether the aircraft meets the requirements for IFR operations.

1) Section 91.9(a) prohibits aircraft operations without compliance with the operating limitations for that aircraft prescribed by the certificating authority.
2) Section 91.9(b) prohibits operation of a U.S.‑registered aircraft requiring an airplane or rotorcraft flight manual unless it has on board a current and approved airplane or rotorcraft flight manual or approved manual material, markings, and placards containing each operating limitation prescribed for that aircraft.

Of course, if you're flying one of the two LSA's currently approved for IFR (Evektor Sportstar and one of the Zeniths), you can just file IFR and go even into the clouds.

Note also that one of the two shorter dual XC's for CP must be done at night, and not all LSA's are approved for night flight.

 

[frfly172]

The Lsa doesn't have to be approved for IFR,as long as it is equipped for IFR. You can do the simulated hood work in an Lsa ,just can't do actual ,unless it is approved. The Lsa for IFR practice is a good deal.

 

[poadeleted20]

The Lsa doesn't have to be approved for IFR,as long as it is equipped for IFR.

It requires more than that for flying under IFR -- see the excerpt from FAA Order 8900.1, above.

You can do the simulated hood work in an Lsa ,just can't do actual ,unless it is approved.

You can fly it in actual instrument conditions, but (unless it's one of the two IFR-approved LSA's) not in IMC at all, or under IFR except as noted in the excerpt above.

The Lsa for IFR practice is a good deal.

Depends on the LSA and its equipment, but I have done a full IR training course in an Evektor SportStar (including the long IFR XC) and flight in IMC, and it worked out pretty well.

 

[James331]

It requires more than that for flying under IFR -- see the excerpt from FAA Order 8900.1, above.

You can fly it in actual instrument conditions, but (unless it's one of the two IFR-approved LSA's) not in IMC at all, or under IFR except as noted in the excerpt above.

Depends on the LSA and its equipment, but I have done a full IR training course in an Evektor SportStar (including the long IFR XC) and flight in IMC, and it worked out pretty well.

Only 2 approved IFR planes?

What about all the older planes which meet LSA requirements?

I think there are more than two.


To the OP, yes and yes, you can do both you x/c and your instrument in any plane as long as you can shoot a precision and non precision approach, even if you cant legally file/fly IFR in it

 

[RalphInCA]

Super! So it looks like I can use the Remos, or the Sling I will soon be checked out in to further my pursuit of my "instrument/commercial/CFI in the next 12 months goal".

 

[poadeleted20]

Only 2 approved IFR planes?

What about all the older planes which meet LSA requirements?

They do not have Special category airworthiness certificates in the Light Sport type. The only two S-LSA's which are currently approved for IFR in their certification are the two I mentioned. Since you're going to be exercising privileges beyond Sport Pilot, the fact that some Standard category airplanes can also be flown with Sport Pilot privileges is not germane. Unless when the OP said "LSA" you thought he was talking about doing his IR training in an Ercoupe or Aeronca Chief or something of that ilk -- which I did not, and his later post made clear was not the case.

To the OP, yes and yes, you can do both you x/c and your instrument in any plane as long as you can shoot a precision and non precision approach, even if you cant legally file/fly IFR in it

Since the long XC required by 61.65(d)(2)(ii) must be flown under IFR, you cannot complete your IR training in an aircraft in which cannot legally be operated under IFR. The section I quoted above permits you to operate under IFR only in some airplanes which aren't approved for IFR in their type certificates provided a number of conditions are met (and it goes well beyond being able to shoot a precision and nonprecision approach), but only for IR training and certification.

 

[James331]

They do not have Special category airworthiness certificates in the Light Sport type. The only two S-LSA's which are currently approved for IFR in their certification are the two I mentioned. Since you're going to be exercising privileges beyond Sport Pilot, the fact that some Standard category airplanes can also be flown with Sport Pilot privileges is not germane.

Since the long XC required by 61.65(d)(2)(ii) must be flown under IFR, you cannot complete your IR training in an aircraft in which cannot legally be operated under IFR. The section I quoted above permits you to operate under IFR only in some airplanes which aren't approved for IFR in their type certificates provided a number of conditions are met (and it goes well beyond being able to shoot a precision and nonprecision approach), but only for IR training and certification.

So what about a 7AC?

As for the x/c I was thinking he was talking about the CPL long cross country.

 

[poadeleted20]

Super! So it looks like I can use the Remos, or the Sling I will soon be checked out in to further my pursuit of my "instrument/commercial/CFI in the next 12 months goal".

Instrument-Airplane and CFI-Instrument (Airplane), yes, all of it (provided those planes meet the requirements listed above). Commercial-ASEL, partly -- you still need 10 hours training in a complex airplane (and by definition, there are no complex LSA's) and to have a complex airplane for the practical test. CFI-ASE, again, partly -- you can do most of your CFI-Airplane training in an LSA, but you still need to have a complex airplane for the practical test, and I have no idea whether either of those two LSA's is approved for spins (another essential part of CFI-ASE training but normally not the practical test).

 

[poadeleted20]

So what about a 7AC?

Instrument training in a Champ? I don't think I've ever seen one with adequate avionics and instruments for IFR operation in the back seat, and I don't see how one could be a safety pilot from the back seat even if the front seat was equipped for IFR.

As for the x/c I was thinking he was talking about the CPL long cross country.

The thread title was "Long XC for commercial/ instrument in LSA?" and the first post was "Does anyone know if it is acceptable to do the long cross countries required for instrument / commercial in a LSA?", so I figured Ralph wanted to know about both the 300nm solo XC for CP-A and the 250nm IFR XC for the IR. Keep in mind that all IR training other than the 250nm IFR XC can be done under VFR, so that's the only flight where the training plane being an LSA is an issue.

 

[RalphInCA]

The thread title was "Long XC for commercial/ instrument in LSA?" and the first post was "Does anyone know if it is acceptable to do the long cross countries required for instrument / commercial in a LSA?", so I figured Ralph wanted to know about both the 300nm solo XC for CP-A and the 250nm IFR XC for the IR. Keep in mind that all IR training other than the 250nm IFR XC can be done under VFR, so that's the only flight where the training plane being an LSA is an issue.

You have interpreted my question correctly, thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[poadeleted20]

All that said, Ralph, I personally consider instrument training to missing something really important if it does not include some flying in real instrument conditions, i.e., in the clouds. That won't be possible if you do it all in an LSA (other than the two I mentioned). I'm not saying that getting into the goo is mandatory (by the regs, it isn't), just highly desirable, so you might factor that into your plans, especially if you're thinking about getting the instrument instructor rating somewhere down the road. My personal observation is that instrument instructors without significant operational IFR experience generally don't provide the level of training I think IR trainees need if they're going to fly IFR for real starting the day after the IR practical test. I know some in the FAA who would make this a regulatory requirement if it were feasible to do so, but we all (including those FAA folks) know it isn't.

 

[RalphInCA]

One of the advantages of the flying club I am with is that we have a range of airplanes to rent. A couple of 150s, 172, 182, Debonair, Cherokee 180, and the Remos. We also have a Champ, but it's in for repair after a ground loop.

So, I don't think it'll be problem to use whatever aircraft is needed to meet training requirements.