Logging time with an instructor

've had two main points on this thread and they are:

1) any flight with a CFI and another pilot can be a training flight. A cross country isn't excluded because you were going anyway.
Sure -- if it's discussed and agreed upon before the flight, and the instructor actually gives you training and signs the log entry at the end. You don't just make the entry on your own without prior arrangement and then ask the instructor to sign it. And no instructor worth the powder to blow him/her up is going to sign such an entry if all they did was be a passenger and maybe make a suggestion or two and only after the flight is asked about logging it as training.

2) you can log whatever you want. The crime isn't putting something in a book you own. The crime is presenting false evidence of experiance to the FAA.
You need to read the regulation again:
Sec. 61.59

Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.

a) No person may make or cause to be made:
(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;
(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;
(3) Any reproduction for fraudulent purpose of any certificate, rating, or authorization, under this part; or
(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.
(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.
The issue is not whether you present that logbook, only that the logbook is required to be kept. The FAA does not want to get in a quibbling match over whether or not you intended to use the entry or not, so they wrote the reg so the rule is violated when you make that entry, not when you present it to them for certificate/rating or recent experience purpose. If it's in your official logbook, it must comply with 61.51 or you've violated 61.59. In addition, read again that certification you sign on every page about how the entries are all true and accurate.
 
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I wouldn't bet on that being a truth in court or before the Administrator, at least not unless you're in back and that's not 100% either.
I would. When you're a CFI giving training, you are legally deemed to be PIC and can be held accountable to the FAA for anything bad that happens. This is the legal interpretation on the matter advanced by the Chief Counsel, accepted by the NTSB, and sustained by the US Court of Appeals (ask Dave Moselein about it). Look up "Hamre" for the details on the FAA position and Moselein v Administrator for the court case.
 
I would. When you're a CFI giving training, you are legally deemed to be PIC and can be held accountable to the FAA for anything bad that happens. This is the legal interpretation on the matter advanced by the Chief Counsel, accepted by the NTSB, and sustained by the US Court of Appeals (ask Dave Moselein about it). Look up "Hamre" for the details on the FAA position and Moselein v Administrator for the court case.


I was talking about the other side of the coin and being harmless because no instruction was being given.
 
Funny how even the simplest of questions can turn into a long, drawn-out argument when pilots are involved. Look what you've done, David! :rofl:
 
Sure -- if it's discussed and agreed upon before the flight, and the instructor actually gives you training and signs the log entry at the end. You don't just make the entry on your own without prior arrangement and then ask the instructor to sign it. And no instructor worth the powder to blow him/her up is going to sign such an entry if all they did was be a passenger and maybe make a suggestion or two and only after the flight is asked about logging it as training.

You need to read the regulation again:
The issue is not whether you present that logbook, only that the logbook is required to be kept. The FAA does not want to get in a quibbling match over whether or not you intended to use the entry or not, so they wrote the reg so the rule is violated when you make that entry, not when you present it to them for certificate/rating or recent experience purpose. If it's in your official logbook, it must comply with 61.51 or you've violated 61.59. In addition, read again that certification you sign on every page about how the entries are all true and accurate.


You need to read post #11 again. The edit to add part that I pointed out before and you said makes no differance. It does make a differance. I have an ATP. I am not required to keep a log book. The only thing I have to log is 3 take offs and landings during the day and night every 90 days.

I could log every single flight as PIC, SIC solo AND dual received. I'm not required to log anything except those landings. As long as those get logged and are legit the rest doesn't matter.

Read the reg you posted...especially the bolded bit and take special note of the 'required to be kept, made, or used' part. Post #11 was edited to honor those words and that edit was pointed out.

I am not required to keep a log of any of my flight time so therefore I can call all or none of my time anything I choose.
 
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Based on all that, seems like you'd have call it 'estimated.'

You need to read post #11 again. The edit to add part that I pointed out before and you said makes no differance. It does make a differance. I have an ATP. I am not required to keep a log book. The only thing I have to log is 3 take offs and landings during the day and night every 90 days.

I could log every single flight as PIC, SIC solo AND dual received. I'm not required to log anything except those landings. As long as those get logged and are legit the rest doesn't matter.

Read the reg you posted...especially the bolded bit and take special note of the 'required to be kept, made, or used' part. Post #11 was edited to honor those words and that edit was pointed out.

I am not required to keep a log of any of my flight time so therefore I can call all or none of my time anything I choose.
 
There are lots of pilots I know that don't keep a log book. If you're not going for ratings then keeping it is just a personal thing.

I do keep a log book. I have every leg I've ever flown leg by leg in log book pro with a copy backed up off site. Of the pilots I know I am the extreme minority. Most log by the day or week.
 
I can name at least one application where the standard fuel through the jets is AvGas.

Yes, but the fuel goes through the jet but the question was how much fuel the jet burns :D

No, I was speaking of a turbojet engine application with the engine burning AvGas.

You might be on to something I didn't consider..... I have (heard) some PT-6 operators run 100LL to devarnish the system every few hundred hours... Maybe the jet guys do too for the same reason..:dunno::dunno::dunno:

Nope, these turbojets operated SOP on AvGas every use.

B36 (four GE J47 turbojets burning AvGas), also Fairchild C119, with Westinghouse turbine of some sort on top.
 
B36 (four GE J47 turbojets burning AvGas), also Fairchild C119, with Westinghouse turbine of some sort on top.

I believe the P-2 also used Avgas burners as well? The B-36 is the one I had foremost in mind.
 
I was talking about the other side of the coin and being harmless because no instruction was being given.
From an FAA perspective, if something happens with a CFI passenger in the plane, the CFI is going to get questioned by the Inspector involved, and the Inspector is going to listen to what the pilot and CFI each have to say about a) what happened, and b) who was performing what duties (if any). If the CFI and the pilot agree that the CFI was merely a passenger and doing no instructing and not in any way exercising authority over the flight, it should be no problem. If not, the CFI may need a lawyer to sort things out (another reason I have the CFI-level Legal Services Plan from AOPA) because there are cases on file in which the pilot and the CFI who thought s/he was only a passenger pointed the finger at each other, and when that happens, it gets legally ugly.

Also, from a civil litigation standpoint, if anything happens which involves injury or damage to a third party, a CFI passenger can be certain the third party will sue both the "real" pilot and the CFI. How that will play out in court is a matter for the jury to decide, and we all know how juries can come up with some really bizarre results, especially in aviation cases, as in Newberger v. Pokrass, in which the jury said the non-pilot passenger asleep in the right seat was contributorily negligent for allowing the pilot to fall asleep and crash.
 
You need to read post #11 again. The edit to add part that I pointed out before and you said makes no differance. It does make a differance. I have an ATP. I am not required to keep a log book. The only thing I have to log is 3 take offs and landings during the day and night every 90 days.

I could log every single flight as PIC, SIC solo AND dual received. I'm not required to log anything except those landings. As long as those get logged and are legit the rest doesn't matter.

Read the reg you posted...especially the bolded bit and take special note of the 'required to be kept, made, or used' part. Post #11 was edited to honor those words and that edit was pointed out.

I am not required to keep a log of any of my flight time so therefore I can call all or none of my time anything I choose.
:sigh:

Good night, and good luck.
 
It's pretty clear. I've made the best case I can and if you can't see it then I'm sorry. I do wish you'd stop with the dismissive attitude. It makes you look pretty silly when it's obvious to all your wrong in this instance.

I wish you the best and fly safe,

Captain
 
It's pretty clear. I've made the best case I can and if you can't see it then I'm sorry. I do wish you'd stop with the dismissive attitude. It makes you look pretty silly when it's obvious to all your wrong in this instance.

I wish you the best and fly safe,

Captain

I have stayed out of the fray, but I agree with Ron.

If it isn't legit, why mess up a logbook by logging it?
 
Rating and certs require training. Dual received is a requirement to apply for the rating or cert. That dual received must be logged and presented when you appy for the rating or cert. The instructor must sign attesting that they performed said training.

This thread isn't about that, at least my take drom what the OP said post 1. I got the feeling he's a rated pilot who flew with a friend CFI. If the flight isn't going to be applied toward a rating or cert then it isn't required to log the time at all. If he wants to log it as dual received he can. If he wants to log it as "sunny even day flying" he can.

There is NO requirement to log or not log anything. All those regs pertaining to instructor signing and FAA exacting the 'death penalty' refer to flights used and counted towards application for a rating or cert.

I have a log book more accurate than 99% of professional pilots I've met, but I'm a dork that way. If another guy flying the line wanted to log his flight with me as dual received or solo he wouldn't be breaking any reg. That's a fact. It may be silly to do, but it's legal.
 
There is NO requirement to log or not log anything.
Wrong.
All those regs pertaining to instructor signing and FAA exacting the 'death penalty' refer to flights used and counted towards application for a rating or cert.
Wrong.
If another guy flying the line wanted to log his flight with me as dual received or solo he wouldn't be breaking any reg.
Wrong.
That's a fact. It may be silly to do, but it's legal.
Wrong.

I've tried very hard to explain the law to you, and all you do is reject it in favor of your own selective and distorted reading of the regulations. Now please, either read the reg and the case law on point carefully, or stop insisiting your unsupported personal opinions are correct in the face of the FAA's interpretations of its own regulations which, by law, must be deferred to by the NTSB and the courts.
 
Sec. 61.59

Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.

a) No person may make or cause to be made:
(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;
(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;
(3) Any reproduction for fraudulent purpose of any certificate, rating, or authorization, under this part; or
(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.
(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.

And yet your own quote I showed you where it clearly states I am not required to log my times. I am NOT seeking issuance. I do not need to show time to exercise privileges, and the only compliance I need show is 3 day landings and 3 takeoffs and landing to full stop at night to carry passengers during the day and night respectively.

Show me a reg that says an ATP must maintain a log book and I'll show you an entire industry that is breaking the law. NOBODY (very few excluding myself) keeps a leg by leg log book in the 121 or 135 world. That is a FACT. It is indisputable.

Now...if time is not required to be logged at all (and it's not for me and thousands of others) how can it possibly be miss-loged, or loged wrong or illegally? Show me a case where an ATP got busted for logging false time.

Also, I'm completely out of patience with your comments. The "bye", the "sigh, goodnight", the "wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong" tirade, and your general demeaning attitude. I see you have a ton of posts. You seem pretty involved and knowledgable...but you are a being a bully and I've asked several times for you to tone it down. I've also suggested we agree to disagree. You have ignored both.


fly safe,
Captain
 
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Ah, the self proclaimed resident expert...a.k.a. village blow hard. No facts or answers. Gloss over what doesn't conveniently fit your view point.

I get it. I usually pick these things up quicker. Sorry I'm off my game. Go ahead, let's hear your final 'zinger' and we can put this behind us.
 
Donald E. CASSIS, Petitioner,
v.
J. Lynn HELMS, Administrator, Federal Aviation
Administration, et al., Respondents.
No. 83-3226.
United States Court of Appeals,
Sixth Circuit.
Argued May 3, 1984.
Decided June 19, 1984.
William H. Poland (argued), Poland & Poland, Clarksville, Tenn., for petitioner.
Gerald Turner, F.A.A., Washington, D.C., Darlene M. Freeman (argued), Fritz Puls, Gen. Counsel, Nat. Transp. Safety Bd., Washington, D.C., for respondents.
Before CONTIE and WELLFORD, Circuit Judges, and TIMBERS, Senior Circuit Judge.*
CONTIE, Circuit Judge.

1 Donald Cassis appeals from a National Transportation Safety Board (Board) order revoking his commercial pilot license for one year on the ground that Cassis intentionally made materially false statements in a pilot logbook presented to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in connection with an application for an airline transport pilot (ATP) certificate. This court has jurisdiction pursuant to 49 U.S.C. Sec. 1486(a). For the reasons set forth below, we affirm.

I.
2 Federal law requires an applicant for an ATP certificate to demonstrate that he has accumulated 1500 hours of flight experience. 14 C.F.R. Sec. 61.155(b)(2). An applicant may use his pilot logbook in order to prove that he has satisfied this standard. The record reflects that although Cassis' logbook contained enough accurate entries to fulfill the 1500 hour requirement when the logbook was submitted to the FAA, the logbook also contained false entries for an additional 150 hours of flight time. Cassis knowingly made the false statements in order to enhance his employment prospects.

3 On August 18, 1981, the FAA ruled that the appellant had violated 14 C.F.R. Sec. 61.59(a)(2) and revoked his license for one year. Cassis administratively appealed pursuant to 49 U.S.C. Sec. 1429. An administrative law judge (ALJ) subsequently held that since the appellant actually had satisfied the 1500 hour requirement, the false entries were not material. The ALJ also ruled that the false statements had not been made with the intent to deceive the FAA and had not been relied upon by the FAA. The ALJ concluded that Cassis had not violated Sec. 61.59(a)(2).

4 The FAA then appealed to the Board, which held that although Cassis had not committed fraud, he was guilty of intentional falsification. The Board reasoned that the false entries were material because: (1) each entry could have influenced the FAA inspector to find that the 1500 hour requirement had been satisfied and (2) Cassis' logbook is a permanent record of flight experience that may be used to demonstrate compliance with other FAA requirements. The Board upheld the license revocation. On this appeal, Cassis argues that the false statements were immaterial and that 14 C.F.R. Sec. 61.59(a)(2) is unconstitutionally vague.

Title 14 C.F.R. Sec. 61.59(a)(2) reads:
5 No person may make or cause to be made--

6 (2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used, to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance, or exercise of the privileges, or any certificate or rating under this part.

7 Fraud and intentional falsification are distinct concepts for purposes of this regulation. Intentional falsification consists of a knowing misrepresentation of a material fact. Hart v. McLucas, 535 F.2d 516, 519 (9th Cir.1976). Fraud requires proof of the additional elements of intent to deceive and reliance upon the misrepresentation. Id. Since the Board accepted the ALJ's finding that Cassis did not commit fraud, discussion about whether Cassis intended to deceive the FAA, or about whether the FAA relied upon the false entries, is irrelevant on this appeal. The sole issue before this court is whether the appellant's conduct constitutes intentional falsification.

8 Since Cassis admitted in testimony before the ALJ that he knowingly made false statements in his logbook, two of the three elements of intentional falsification have been established. The result in this case depends, therefore, upon whether the misrepresentations were material. To support his argument that the false entries were immaterial, Cassis relies upon Administrator v. Niolet, EA-1480 (NTSB, filed September 9, 1980). In Niolet, false entries in a logbook were held to be material in circumstances where the 1500 hour requirement could not be fulfilled if the false entries were discounted. Cassis contends that the Niolet case limits the concept of materiality to situations in which false statements are indispensable in satisfying the 1500 hour standard. Since Cassis actually had 1500 hours of flight experience when he submitted his logbook for inspection, he argues that the false entries were immaterial.

9 We do not agree with Cassis that Niolet so limited the scope of the term "material." The Niolet decision merely found a Sec. 61.59(a)(2) violation on the facts of that case. The opinion did not address the fact situation presented here and did not purport to restrict the concept of materiality to situations in which false logbook entries are strictly necessary or indispensable to finding that the 1500 hour requirement has been satisfied. Instead, we agree with the FAA that the test is whether the false statements had the natural tendency to influence, or were capable of influencing, the decision of the FAA inspector to whom the logbook was submitted. See Poulos v. United States, 387 F.2d 4, 6 (10th Cir.1968); cf. United States v. Lazaros, 480 F.2d 174, 177 (6th Cir.1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 914, 94 S.Ct. 1409, 39 L.Ed.2d 468 (1974) (false testimony). Since Cassis did not inform the FAA inspector of which logbook entries were accurate and which were false, the false entries were capable of influencing the ultimate decision about whether the appellant had 1500 hours of flight experience. The misrepresentations were material for purposes of Sec. 61.59(a)(2).

10 Moreover, the Board correctly held that the false entries were material because it left intact, they could be used by the appellant to show compliance with other FAA requirements beyond those needed for the ATP certificate. Since the logbook in question is a permanent and cumulative record of the appellant's flight experience, it may be consulted when Cassis seeks to demonstrate compliance with other FAA flight experience requirements. The FAA, of course, is charged with promoting aviation safety. See 49 U.S.C. Sec. 1421(a). The FAA cannot meet this responsibility unless pilot logbooks are free of knowing misrepresentations of fact. We conclude that the false entries were material and that the appellant violated Sec. 61.59(a)(2).

11 The appellant also contends that Sec. 61.59(a)(2) is unconstitutionally vague. This argument is meritless. The plain language of the regulation clearly informs persons of the proscription against making fraudulent or intentionally false statements in pilot logbooks. The regulation certainly is not "so vague that a person exercising common sense could not sufficiently understand and fulfill its prescription." Cf. Reminga v. United States, 695 F.2d 1000, 1005 (6th Cir.1982), cert. denied, --- U.S. ----, 103 S.Ct. 1778, 76 L.Ed.2d 349 (1983) (vagueness standard for non-criminal statutes). That the courts have engrafted onto Sec. 61.59(a)(2) a requirement that misrepresentations be material does not render the provision vague. Indeed, the materiality requirement benefits persons like Cassis because the requirement limits the otherwise permissible reach of the regulation.

12 The decision of the National Transportation Safety Board is AFFIRMED.

* The Honorable William H. Timbers, Senior Judge, United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, sitting by designation
 
Was that case about someone who refused to log? An empty logbook is a completely different thing than a fraudulent one.

I'm not on anyone's side here, it just looks like you're all talking past each other.
 
Well, I'd feel better if the ALJ had been upheld. However the whole thing goes right back to a pilot applying for a rating or certificate. If I were in charge of the universe the ALJ would have been upheld and Mr. Cassis would have had a victory party. But I'm not.

However, not withstanding, once Mr. Cassis gets his ATP (or if he had never applied and just stayed a commercial, or had applied and been up front and showed which entries were false) he can log or not log whatever he wants.

If you never have to present your log book again then it becomes imaterial. I'm pretty sure if he applied for that ATP and just stated the true and accurate numbers then he never would have had a problem. My take is don't submit false numbers to the FAA...ever.
 


And that's been my repeated position that certain people here don't want to accept. It's not what you log (if you're not required to keep a log book as most pilots are not), it's what you submit. That 8710 form is a legal document and MUST be true and accurate.

If you don't have an 8710 to fill out then what you log does not matter. To the OP, log what you want. If you apply for another cert then make sure your logs you submit represent what you flew and is accurate.
 
My dad logged his cumulative hours and operations at the end of every month. He was a corporate helo pilot at the end of his career. Nobody ever gave it a second thought.
 
And that's been my repeated position that certain people here don't want to accept. It's not what you log (if you're not required to keep a log book as most pilots are not), it's what you submit. That 8710 form is a legal document and MUST be true and accurate.

If you don't have an 8710 to fill out then what you log does not matter. To the OP, log what you want. If you apply for another cert then make sure your logs you submit represent what you flew and is accurate.

While your position is accurate, it is also kinda bad advice. IMO, your logbook is your official document that you hand in for proof of service and training when called for under the regs. Logbooks should be treated as minimalist documents, the facts and just the facts, and there are flights that may be better left unrecorded.
 
However, not withstanding, once Mr. Cassis gets his ATP (or if he had never applied and just stayed a commercial, or had applied and been up front and showed which entries were false) he can log or not log whatever he wants.
Go back and read paragraph 10 of that decision again -- it clearly says otherwise.

If you never have to present your log book again then it becomes imaterial.
The FAA is empowered to require you to present your logbook any time they feel like it, and you have no choice in the matter other than to comply or lose your pilot certificate. And that's been tested in court already.
 
And that's been my repeated position that certain people here don't want to accept. It's not what you log (if you're not required to keep a log book as most pilots are not), it's what you submit. That 8710 form is a legal document and MUST be true and accurate.
So is your logbook, and it, too, must be true and accurate. And you are indeed required to keep a logbook if you do any flying requiring recent flying experience, which basically means anyone who flies as a PIC, and anyone who flies as an SIC other than as a 61.109(b) safety pilot. True, airline pilots can use their company records as their logbook, but the information required by 61.51 must be in it and must be legally recorded. If you put anything false in that logbook (regardless of the actual form it takes, be it a traditional logbook, company records, military flight records, etc), you have indeed violated 61.59.

You appear to be confusing the fact that you are not required to log anything that isn't necessary to meet FAA requirements with two false ideas:
  1. You aren't required to have a logbook at all (other than the one limited case I mentioned), and
  2. You can put anything you want in the logbook regardless of truth or accuracy as long as you don't plan to use it for FAA purposes.
Neither of those two ideas is correct.
 
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However, not withstanding, once Mr. Cassis gets his ATP (or if he had never applied and just stayed a commercial, or had applied and been up front and showed which entries were false) he can log or not log whatever he wants.
There are situations past ATP which require the applicant to have a certain number of specific hours. Getting a type rating in a simulator without an SOE restriction, for example.

From 61.64
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (f) of this section, if an airplane is not used during the practical test for a type rating for a turbojet airplane (except for preflight inspection), an applicant must accomplish the entire practical test in a Level C or higher flight simulator and the applicant must—

(1) Hold a type rating in a turbojet airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, and that type rating may not contain a supervised operating experience limitation;

(2) Have 1,000 hours of flight time in two different turbojet airplanes of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought;

(3) Have been appointed by the U.S. Armed Forces as pilot in command in a turbojet airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought;

(4) Have 500 hours of flight time in the same type of airplane for which the type rating is sought; or

(5) Have logged at least 2,000 hours of flight time, of which 500 hours were in turbine-powered airplanes of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought.

(c) Except as provided in paragraph (f) of this section, if an airplane is not used during the practical test for a type rating for a turbo-propeller airplane (except for preflight inspection), an applicant must accomplish the entire practical test in a Level C or higher flight simulator and the applicant must—

(1) Hold a type rating in a turbo-propeller airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, and that type rating may not contain a supervised operating experience limitation;

(2) Have 1,000 hours of flight time in two different turbo-propeller airplanes of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought;

(3) Have been appointed by the U.S. Armed Forces as pilot in command in a turbo-propeller airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought;

(4) Have 500 hours of flight time in the same type of airplane for which the type rating is sought; or

(5) Have logged at least 2,000 hours of flight time, of which 500 hours were in turbine-powered airplanes of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought.
I recall that I was only asked to sign a statement saying I met one of these requirements but if they were suspicious and wanted proof where would they look? In your logbook or other document.

I can understand not logging everything, but logging something fraudulently as Cassis did is another question.
 
Heres the topics we covered that flight
1. How much gas a jet burns
2. Flying wild alaska
3. Ariel Tweto
4. Huey helicopters
5. The waitresses at the restaurant
6. Ariel Tweto again

How many possible things could there be to say about Ariel?

Oh, wait. You listed her after the waitresses. I'm sure then you were talking about what would happen if numbers 5 and 6 got together.

Now I understand.
 
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