Logging time with an instructor

DavidWhite

DavidWhite

Final Approach
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Display name:
DW
Ok so I have a quick question, I flew with my old instructor to lunch and it was a fun flight to catch up and not any training. I was doing the logbook entries for the last 3 months last night. I logged it as PIC, but not dual given (because I was PIC and there wasnt any instructing going on) Was this the wrong way to log this time?
 
If you were the one at the controls, you log it as PIC. He wasn't giving instruction, you don't log it as dual received.
 
Nope, you logged it correctly.
 
I'd log it as dual received just so he could also log it as dual given and PIC. That way you both get PIC time and it goes into both logbooks.

That's assuming your CFI is building time to move on. If he's a 20,000 hour retired guy then he doesn't care and I'd just log it PIC.
 
Captain said:
I'd log it as dual received just so he could also log it as dual given and PIC. That way you both get PIC time and it goes into both logbooks.

That's assuming your CFI is building time to move on. If he's a 20,000 hour retired guy then he doesn't care and I'd just log it PIC.
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Pardon me for being an old curmudgeon, but the OP made it clear that no instruction took place. Wouldn't your suggestion be dishonest?

I asked a somewhat similar question a while back and from that I learned that the OP's situation calls for PIC time and no solo time.


Mister Whiskers,

You've been Baptized by fire, or at least smoke. You don't need no stinking instructor any more!:lol:
 
The FAA has beat up instructors on this before (though it was more egregious padding than this one....essentially a pair of instructors who always double logged their flights).
 
Captain said:
I'd log it as dual received just so he could also log it as dual given and PIC. That way you both get PIC time and it goes into both logbooks.
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You can't just log it as dual received on your own. The instructor must actually be giving training and sign your logbook. When the FAA sees training time logged with no signature, they know that either the instructor violated the rules by not signing your log, or you violated the rules by logging training that wasn't given to you, and then one of you is in trouble.
 
Yes, the OP did say no training took place.

But how would he know? A private pilot flying with a CFI is learning weather he knows it or not. Unless the CFI is asleep in the back seat then conversations are being held, looks and nods are being sent, approval or concern is being broadcast by the CFI body gestures.

What is "Dual Given"? Does it HAVE to be lazy 8's? Does it HAVE to be in the syllabus? Of course not. I'm an ATP and if I was flying on a cross country with a CFI I'd log it as dual received...unless he didn't care and I'd then just log PIC. I think that's exactly what I said before too.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can't just log it as dual received on your own. The instructor must actually be giving training and sign your logbook. When the FAA sees training time logged with no signature, they know that either the instructor violated the rules by not signing your log, or you violated the rules by logging training that wasn't given to you, and then one of you is in trouble.
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Of course I'd let the CFI sign my logbook...that's not the point.


The FAA does not care if you log dual received when no training takes place. You can also log the receipe of your moms apple pie. The FAA is very clear what must be logged. They do not say what can't be logged.


Edit to add: "as long as its not required dual training for application for a rating or certificate" to the end of the first sentence of the second paragraph. Oops
 
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Captain said:
Yes, the OP did say no training took place.

But how would he know? A private pilot flying with a CFI is learning weather he knows it or not.
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I don't think that's the point. The role-playing and relationship between the two pilots changes when one becomes the CFI and the other the student. Ideally this should be resolved before you ever get in the airplane together.
 
Heres the topics we covered that flight
1. How much gas a jet burns
2. Flying wild alaska
3. Ariel Tweto
4. Huey helicopters
5. The waitresses at the restaurant
6. Ariel Tweto again
 
DavidWhite said:
Heres the topics we covered that flight
1. How much gas a jet burns
2. Flying wild alaska
3. Ariel Tweto
4. Huey helicopters
5. The waitresses at the restaurant
6. Ariel Tweto again
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Ding ding ding! I rest my case.
 
Captain said:
Of course I'd let the CFI sign my logbook...that's not the point.
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The issue wasn't letting the instructor sign, it was making the entry yourself without the instructor's involvement.

The FAA does not care if you log dual received when no training takes place. You can also log the receipe of your moms apple pie. The FAA is very clear what must be logged. They do not say what can't be logged.
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Actually, the FAA cares very much about what you put in your logbook, and logging training times when no training occurred is a violation of 14 CFR 61.59, for which the FAA usually exacts its equivalent of the death penalty.
 
??? I never log/enter 'Dual Received', that's the instructor's entry to make, I just check they entered everything required.
 
Ron Levy said:
The issue wasn't letting the instructor sign, it was making the entry yourself without the instructor's involvement.

Actually, the FAA cares very much about what you put in your logbook, and logging training times when no training occurred is a violation of 14 CFR 61.59, for which the FAA usually exacts its equivalent of the death penalty.
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You missed the edit right below what you quoted.
 
Captain said:
You missed the edit right below what you quoted.
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Doesn't change a thing. If you log it as training received when it wasn't "training received" as defined in the regulations, the FAA will care -- a lot. And the fact that you don't have the terminology right also tells me you're not fully up on this topic.
 
Well, I disagree. It's okay, the world's big enough for both of us.
 
Captain said:
Well, I disagree. It's okay, the world's big enough for both of us.
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The issue isn't whether we disagree -- it's what the FAA will say if they see it, and you'd be unwise not to listen to me on this one about that.

:bye:
 
DavidWhite said:
Heres the topics we covered that flight
1. How much gas a jet burns
2. Flying wild alaska
3. Ariel Tweto
4. Huey helicopters
5. The waitresses at the restaurant
6. Ariel Tweto again
Click to expand...

Heck,,, thats a trick question......

Answer - a jet burns jet fuel.... not gas..:nonod::no:
 
Ron Levy said:
:bye:
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Look, I don't know why you feel entitled to be all snarky with me. I tried to make nice and agree to disagree...

I'm right. Maybe you don't understand what I said or maybe you do and are just wrong in your understanding of what the FAA requires.

Say a private pilot logged each and every flight he did as dual received (or 'training received' if you prefer). The flights with his instructor and the solo flights...all of them. But he used a black pen for the flights with his instructor and a green pen for the solo, so he ends up with a dual received column with black and green entries. When the checkride comes he only presents the DE with the black entries and that shows sufficient time. The DE may ask, "what are all these green entries?" to which the applicant just says, oh I like full columns or whatever. As long as he doesn't try to USE those green hours to show experience he is fine and the examiner would have nothing to say.

Sounds silly maybe, but it cuts to the OPs point. Logging the hours isn't the crime, rather, presenting the (fake) hours is. You can log whatever you want and I even used your moms apple pie receipie as an example. The FAA simply required that you must show time to meet the requirements of the FARS. Anything after that they really don't care.

As an ATP or PP not going for any ratings it is wholly okay to log dual received when flying with a CFI talking about flying along the way.

Fly safe,
Captain
 
Captain said:
Sounds silly maybe, but it cuts to the OPs point. Logging the hours isn't the crime, rather, presenting the (fake) hours is. You can log whatever you want and I even used your moms apple pie receipie as an example. The FAA simply required that you must show time to meet the requirements of the FARS. Anything after that they really don't care.
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You can log whatever you want? :hairraise:
 
Henning said:
I can name at least one application where the standard fuel through the jets is AvGas.
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Yes, but the fuel goes through the jet but the question was how much fuel the jet burns :D
 
Henning said:
I can name at least one application where the standard fuel through the jets is AvGas.
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You might be on to something I didn't consider..... I have (heard) some PT-6 operators run 100LL to devarnish the system every few hundred hours... Maybe the jet guys do too for the same reason..:dunno::dunno::dunno:
 
N801BH said:
You might be on to something I didn't consider..... I have (heard) some PT-6 operators run 100LL to devarnish the system every few hundred hours... Maybe the jet guys do too for the same reason..:dunno::dunno::dunno:
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Nope, these turbojets operated SOP on AvGas every use.
 
Captain said:
As an ATP or PP not going for any ratings it is wholly okay to log dual received when flying with a CFI talking about flying along the way.
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I'm interested to see how you present this to people when you are offered a ride in their airplane. "Hey, could I say that I am giving you instruction today and sign your logbook so that we can both log the time for the whole flight?" :confused:

In addition, from the CFI's standpoint you are taking on more responsibility than you would if you were a passenger. Also, some places might not allow you to do this. If the pilot is renting from an FBO it's common that they don't allow CFIs to instruct in their airplane if they have not had a checkout.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm interested to see how you present this to people when you are offered a ride in their airplane. "Hey, could I say that I am giving you instruction today and sign your logbook so that we can both log the time for the whole flight?" :confused:

In addition, from the CFI's standpoint you are taking on more responsibility than you would if you were a passenger. Also, some places might not allow you to do this. If the pilot is renting from an FBO it's common that they don't allow CFIs to instruct in their airplane if they have not had a checkout.
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No, I would never ask to give instruction. If, as in your example, i was riding with a friend and he offered I would decline...I don't need the hours. If I were the one giving a ride to a CFI friend of mine who I knew was building hours I'd offer him to log it. There's no rule a CFI can't give instruction on a friendly flight. Theres no rule of what has to be covered. He could just once offer a tip on radio phraseology on a four hour flight and the whole thing counts. Thats my point...there is no rules on what must be covered to call it training.

As for the FBO rule of giving instruction in their planes...the FAA doesn't give a flip what the local FBO rules are. The worst thing that could happen is the FBO won't rent to me again. Besides, wasn't the premise that he was flying his own plane?
 
Captain said:
Theres no rule of what has to be covered. He could just once offer a tip on radio phraseology on a four hour flight and the whole thing counts. Thats my point...there is no rules on what must be covered to call it training.
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It's good that they don't micromanage but if people keep abusing it they will.

Captain said:
As for the FBO rule of giving instruction in their planes...the FAA doesn't give a flip what the local FBO rules are. The worst thing that could happen is the FBO won't rent to me again.
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Have an accident in the FBO's airplane with you as an instructor and see what happens.

Captain said:
Besides, wasn't the premise that he was flying his own plane?
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The premise was also that he was logging this flight in his own logbook some period of time after the fact.
 
Everskyward said:
It's good that they don't micromanage but if people keep abusing it they will.

Have an accident in the FBO's airplane with you as an instructor and see what happens.
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Have an accident and bad things happen regardless. You will NOT get in trouble from the FAA for breaking FBO rules however.

The premise was also that he was logging this flight in his own logbook some period of time after the fact.
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If that's true then I missed it. To log dual received the instructor needs to be part of that and sign the book.
 
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All:

I went back and read the OP. he did make clear he was talking past tense. I said I'd log it as dual if the CFI wanted the hours and I would. I hope that and the subsiquent thread didn't leave the impression I think CFIs aren't required to sign the logbooks on traing flights.

I've had two main points on this thread and they are:

1) any flight with a CFI and another pilot can be a training flight. A cross country isn't excluded because you were going anyway.

2) you can log whatever you want. The crime isn't putting something in a book you own. The crime is presenting false evidence of experiance to the FAA.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm interested to see how you present this to people when you are offered a ride in their airplane. "Hey, could I say that I am giving you instruction today and sign your logbook so that we can both log the time for the whole flight?" :confused:

In addition, from the CFI's standpoint you are taking on more responsibility than you would if you were a passenger. Also, some places might not allow you to do this. If the pilot is renting from an FBO it's common that they don't allow CFIs to instruct in their airplane if they have not had a checkout.
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I wouldn't bet on that being a truth in court or before the Administrator, at least not unless you're in back and that's not 100% either.
 
Henning said:
I wouldn't bet on that being a truth in court or before the Administrator, at least not unless you're in back and that's not 100% either.
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It's not something I lose any sleep over.
 
Captain said:
Have an accident and bad things happen regardless. You will NOT get in trouble from the FAA for breaking FBO rules however.
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No but th FBO and their insurance company would probably come after you in a bigger way than they would otherwise. They would be justified too.
 
Captain said:
As for the FBO rule of giving instruction in their planes...the FAA doesn't give a flip what the local FBO rules are. The worst thing that could happen is the FBO won't rent to me again.
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No, it's not. The worst thing that could happen in that regard is the plane gets bent and the FBO's insurer denies coverage because the insurance policy was violated and you as the renter end up having to pay for the airplane out of your own pocket because you violated the rental contract.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Captain,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
-- Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act 1, Scene 5.
 
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