Logging Question

[Rudy]

Ok,
As i posted i got to go on a jet flight in a Beech Premier, i want to write it in my logbook. I think it would be good to have that so if it ever comes up later on i will have it in there that i have some experience in that plane.
So.........Can i log it just under duration of flight and airplane select, or am not suppose to do that.

 

[Henning]

Ok,
As i posted i got to go on a jet flight in a Beech Premier, i want to write it in my logbook. I think it would be good to have that so if it ever comes up later on i will have it in there that i have some experience in that plane.
So.........Can i log it just under duration of flight and airplane select, or am not suppose to do that.

You CAN log the time, you just can't use that time in furtherance of a rating, or anything else for that matter. You can write in the plane and a remark, you can probably use one of those blank columns and label it "unusable" or whatever if you want to put the time in a colomn.

 

[Rudy]

You CAN log the time, you just can't use that time in furtherance of a rating, or anything else for that matter. You can write in the plane and a remark, you can probably use one of those blank columns and label it "unusable" or whatever if you want to put the time in a colomn.

Ok Great thanks!!
Do you think that it is necessary?
What i was thinking was that if someday i maybe was to be hired to fly one it would give me an edge that i had some experience in it, But i don't really know

 

[Henning]

Ok Great thanks!!
Do you think that it is necessary?
What i was thinking was that if someday i maybe was to be hired to fly one it would give me an edge that i had some experience in it, But i don't really know

That ride won't give you any edge except that you met people who operate at those levels. The greatest differential in life is the people we meet and impress. What matters is do you have the quals to meet their insurance, do you have a 4 year degree (I'd suggest a business degree) and what kind of attitude you have. Attitude is often the biggy. Read an old book called "The Naked Ape" by Desmond Morris (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=4j1jqALBgh&isbn=0385334303&itm=1 ) The information will serve you extremely well in life. It teaches you body language and unspoken social structure.

 

[Rudy]

That ride won't give you any edge except that you met people who operate at those levels. The greatest differential in life is the people we meet and impress. What matters is do you have the quals to meet their insurance, do you have a 4 year degree (I'd suggest a business degree) and what kind of attitude you have. Attitude is often the biggy. Read an old book called "The Naked Ape" by Desmond Morris (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=4j1jqALBgh&isbn=0385334303&itm=1 ) The information will serve you extremely well in life. It teaches you body language and unspoken social structure.

Ok thanks for the advice. I am actually working towards double majoring in buisness management and buisness marketing. Good to know i am at least on the right track!!

 

[Henning]

Ok thanks for the advice. I am actually working towards double majoring in buisness management and buisness marketing. Good to know i am at least on the right track!!

Good plan, although rather than doubling a BA major, You may look into putting the extra energy into classes for an MBA program. A double major BA doesn't really count any extra in the real world as any employer recognizes that a BA just means you have enough information that you may understand what (s)he is talking about when they explain what they want you to do, a double major just means you have more info at a base level to get confused with. An MBA represents a deeper knowledge and understanding of the subjects, it also represents more money in your pocket. NOTE: All the education in the world does not preclude hard work for success. That requires always learning and always putting forth an effort. I learn things every day and I haven't been to school in over 20 years.

 

[Rudy]

Good plan, although rather than doubling a BA major, You may look into putting the extra energy into classes for an MBA program. A double major BA doesn't really count any extra in the real world as any employer recognizes that a BA just means you have enough information that you may understand what (s)he is talking about when they explain what they want you to do, a double major just means you have more info at a base level to get confused with. An MBA represents a deeper knowledge and understanding of the subjects, it also represents more money in your pocket. NOTE: All the education in the world does not preclude hard work for success. That requires always learning and always putting forth an effort. I learn things every day and I haven't been to school in over 20 years.

Ok, i will look into that! I guess that makes sense that a double-major doesn't neccesarily mean anything more!!
Thanks a lot!

 

[Henning]

Ok, i will look into that! I guess that makes sense that a double-major doesn't neccesarily mean anything more!!
Thanks a lot!

No sweat. The thing that sets humans apart from others is the ability to learn from others mistakes. IMO That's the best feature of advanced communication.

 

[poadeleted20]

From a strictly regulatory standpoint, the answer depends on what sort of tickets you hold, where you sat, the aircraft's type certificate, and whether anyone else was aboard.

Assuming the aircraft requires two pilots, basically, each pilot seat must be occupied by the person qualified to be and acting as the required crewmember at all times (see 91.105(a) for the details). The only way you, a person not qualified as either PIC or SIC in a Beech Premier, could be occupying one of the pilot seats would be if were designated to receive SIC training in that aircraft from a qualified instructor and there were no other passengers or cargo aboard. Then you could log it as SIC, flight, pilot, and training received time. Any other entry that appears to say you were manipulating the controls or even just occupying a pilot seat during flight would be a statement that could be used as evidence of a violation of 91.105(a) and 61.55 by the PIC.

Assuming this is a single-pilot certified jet requiring only a PIC, then there is only need for one qualified pilot to be in the left seat, and anyone can sit in the right seat. However, other than receiving training with nobody else aboard other than the PIC/Instructor, to log that time legally, you would have to hold a Beech Premier type rating, which I gather you don't have. Again, any entry in your log to that effect would raise FAA eyebrows, as there is no standard column in which you could legally put the time.

My recommendation is NOT to put this in your official pilot log. As Henning noted, it won't help you in the future, and all it may do is attract unwanted attention from the FAA to yourself and whoever was the PIC.

 

[BruceAir]

I think the relevant regulation regarding the requirements for acting as SIC is FAR 61.55 (FAR 91.105 requires crew members to be at their stations and covers the use of seatbelts).

FAR 61.55 does not require that a pilot acting as SIC of a turboject have a type rating (I know several second officers flying jets for regional airlines who do not have type ratings for the aircraft they fly under Part 121--see 61.55(d)). The basic requirement is:

Sec. 61.55 - Second-in-command qualifications.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person holds:

(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and

(2) An instrument rating that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR.


​

The regulation does set forth additininal training and experience requirements, plus several limitations on the types of operations that include exceptions to the basic rule. An operator's operational specifications may, of course, include additional requirements.


But according to the regulations (see, for example, FAR 61.31), the only person required to have a type rating on a jet is the person acting as PIC.


Having said all that, no potential employer is going to be impressed by the fact that you logged a flight or two in the right seat of a jet.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think the relevant regulation regarding the requirements for acting as SIC is FAR 61.55 (FAR 91.105 requires crew members to be at their stations and covers the use of seatbelts).

While that's true, the combination of the two rules suggests that nobody who is NOT 61.55-qualified should be in a pilot seat of a 2-pilot-required aircraft in flight since the real SIC should be there already, and I got the distinct impression that Rudy was talking about logging seat time, not time in the back.

FAR 61.55 does not require that a pilot acting as SIC of a turbojet have a type rating...But according to the regulations (see, for example, FAR 61.31), the only person required to have a type rating on a jet is the person acting as PIC.

Keep in mind that this is an issue of logging time, not one of serving as a required crewmember, and notice that I referred to the type rating issue ONLY if the aircraft is 1-pilot certified. In that case, with only one pilot required, the only way the non-PIC occupant of the right seat can log the time is if that person is the sole manipulator of the controls and has the requisite category, class, and type ratings (or is an authorized instructor giving instruction, which Rudy clearly was not, and which would still require the type rating). And with no SIC required, there is no SIC time to log. That means there's no way in 61.51 for Rudy to log time in a 1-pilot jet unless he's rated in it, which I gather he is not, or if he was the only occupant besides an instructor-qualified pilot and was receiving instruction, which I also gather was not the case.

Having said all that, no potential employer is going to be impressed by the fact that you logged a flight or two in the right seat of a jet.

...and may be NEGATIVELY impressed if you logged it improperly.

 

[BruceAir]

Just for the record, here's what appears to be the relevant section of 61.51 covering the logging of SIC time:



Sec. 61.51 - Pilot logbooks.
...


(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

 

[gismo]

While that's true, the combination of the two rules suggests that nobody who is NOT 61.55-qualified should be in a pilot seat of a 2-pilot-required aircraft in flight since the real SIC should be there already, and I got the distinct impression that Rudy was talking about logging seat time, not time in the back.

So what is required, rating wise to be legal from the FAA's perspective in a jet that requires two pilots? Just appropriate category and class? Assume part 91 and that insurance issues are not a concern.

 

[poadeleted20]

So what is required, rating wise to be legal from the FAA's perspective in a jet that requires two pilots? Just appropriate category and class? Assume part 91 and that insurance issues are not a concern.

The FAA Counsel has said that "rated" means category, class, and (if required) type. Since all multiengine turbojets (except some military types with no civilian equivalent) require a type rating to be PIC, you need the type rating either to be the PIC or to log PIC time under the "rated" sole manipulator clause. A 61.55-qualified but non-typed pilot can serve as SIC if one is required (if not, he is for FAA purposes just a passenger and can't log anything), but can log only SIC time even if he's the sole manipulator. And a non-typed, non-61.55-qualified person sitting in the right seat is either illegal (if two pilots are required) or a passenger who can't log time (if only one pilot is required) even if he's the sole manipulator (no different than having your non-pilot Great Aunt Matilda flying from the right seat of your C-172).