Logging PIC

[stingray]

I know I have this right and even after explaining it, it did no good.

PPL ASEL no endorsements

Can he log time as PIC in a HP or complex aircraft?

Yes ref. to 61.51 (e) (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges.

I first brought up the fact that on the front of my license it says that I am rated for ASEL. He said but you do not have "privileges" to fly it. I said that privileges has to do with SP not PPL. He said I have to prove it.

I am going back with, 61.94 I used the index under privileges, Recreational pilots. Student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate or a recreational pilot certificate who wants to obtain privileges to operate in Class B,C, and D airspace... I forgot to mention the or not an and in the reg.

Is there any other way that that reg can be understood as the rated part meaning, something other than "rated". Like "qualified". Is there another section that would better describe Acting as PIC vs. Logging PIC.

I went to definitions "Pilot in Command" (3) Holds apporiate category, class, and Type rating, if appropriate. definition of "Type" gave me no help to know if type was refering to HP or complex. Only that a DC-7 was different than a F-27. If Type in this definition did not mean HP or complex then that definition would allow a ASEL to be PIC. Unless of course appropriate is refering to HP or complex.

Dan

 

[poadeleted20]

I know I have this right and even after explaining it, it did no good.

PPL ASEL no endorsements

Can he log time as PIC in a HP or complex aircraft?

Yes ref. to 61.51 (e) (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges.

At the risk of pendantry, I don't like the question. If you asked, "Can he log PIC time in a HP or complex aircraft?" I'd say "yes, certainly, he can log PIC time while flying the plane under the sole manipulator clause while someone else qualified acts as PIC." If you ask the question as stated, I'd say, "No, he cannot log time as PIC because he cannot be PIC."

I first brought up the fact that on the front of my license it says that I am rated for ASEL. He said but you do not have "privileges" to fly it. I said that privileges has to do with SP not PPL. He said I have to prove it.

I am going back with, 61.94 I used the index under privileges, Recreational pilots. Student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate or a recreational pilot certificate who wants to obtain privileges to operate in Class B,C, and D airspace... I forgot to mention the or not an and in the reg.

Two points. First, the reg says "rated or has privileges," not "rated and has privileges." Either one will do. Second, if you dig further, you'll find that the FAA has said in numerous places that the term "has privileges" in this context refers solely to Sport Pilots who have "privileges" rather than "ratings."

Is there any other way that that reg can be understood as the rated part meaning, something other than "rated". Like "qualified".

Not since the FAA Chief Counsel said it means exactly that -- ratings on one's pilot certificate, no more, no less.

Is there another section that would better describe Acting as PIC vs. Logging PIC.

Regrettably, no. The FAA has covered that in several Letters of Interpretation, but not explicitly in the regulations (hence, the need for those letters).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

PPL ASEL no endorsements

Can he log time as PIC in a HP or complex aircraft?

Yes... But you knew that.

Yes ref. to 61.51 (e) (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges.

Exactly right.

I first brought up the fact that on the front of my license it says that I am rated for ASEL. He said but you do not have "privileges" to fly it. I said that privileges has to do with SP not PPL. He said I have to prove it.

No you don't. Rated OR has privileges. Since you are rated, the "has privileges" part is completely irrelevant.

I am going back with, 61.94 I used the index under privileges, Recreational pilots. Student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate or a recreational pilot certificate who wants to obtain privileges to operate in Class B,C, and D airspace... I forgot to mention the or not an and in the reg.

Still irrelevant.

What you really need to prove is that "rated" means PP-ASEL and not endorsements. What, exactly, is a "rating?" Well, when you're looking for a definition, you start with <part>.1 and then revert to 1.1 if you don't find it.

So, here's the clincher, from 14 CFR 1.1:

Rating means a statement that, as a part of a certificate, sets forth special conditions, privileges, or limitations.

Your certificate says Private Pilot, Airplane Single Engine Land. A certificate does not, nor would it ever, say "High Performance" or "Complex." Those go in your logbook, not on your certificate, and thus are not ratings.

So, you are RATED and that's all you need to be to log PIC.

 

[stingray]

Thanks Ron, I did mean as you stated the other pilot is Acting PIC.

I remembered the or vs and too late to bring it up. I'll have my ducks in a row by Saturday though.

Dan

 

[flyingcheesehead]

At the risk of pendantry, I don't like the question. If you asked, "Can he log PIC time in a HP or complex aircraft?" I'd say "yes, certainly, he can log PIC time while flying the plane under the sole manipulator clause while someone else qualified acts as PIC." If you ask the question as stated, I'd say, "No, he cannot log time as PIC because he cannot be PIC."

Ah, but one could reply that he can "log time as PIC" because he didn't say he was going to "act as PIC" only that he was going to "log time."

Certainly points out why you should always choose words carefully!

 

[gprellwitz]

This is why when we were up with an instructor the other NIGHT after not having flown at night in over four months that I made a point of telling the instructor that HE would be ACTING PIC for the flight. And, since Leslie certainly constituted a passenger, that was required!

 

[bobmrg]

Not covered in other responses is your confusion with regard to type ratings. A type rating is required to act as PIC of an aircraft weighing more than 12,500 pounds OR a turbojet. Some countries require their pilots to have type ratings for each aircraft...Cessna 172, PA-28, etc, but the US has not gone that route yet.

Bob Gardner