Logging PIC Time

t0r0nad0

t0r0nad0

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PJ Gustafson
Okay, this topic has been endlessly debated in many forums in the past, and I thought I had a good handle on it, but then I was having a discussion with Ric (colomtnflyer) and Clint (ATCT) one evening and they were insisting that my understanding is incorrect.

Here's the situation - I do a lot of flying with my mentor pilot in his Bonanza, much of the time he allows me to take the controls except for takeoff and landing (for insurance reasons). I am a private pilot, and I do not have my complex or high performance endorsements. I was under the impression that since FAR 61.51 states:

e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person--
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
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I would be able to log the time that I am the sole manipulator of the controls since I am rated for ASEL, despite not having a complex and high performance endorsements. Ric and Clint tell me that I am incorrect, and that I need the endorsements to log PIC time. I can log that as total time, and time in type for insurance reasons in the future, but not PIC time that can be used for an additional rating (which really stinks, because I have about 4+ hrs in the past month of X-C PIC time in that plane logged thus far, which I was hoping to use towards my instrument rating).

It's not that I don't believe these two upstanding gentlemen (who are more experienced than me), but after re-reading the FAR's, I don't see what is keeping me from logging this PIC time. Does it have something to do with the "or has privileges" clause at the end of 61.51(e)(1)(i)? That wouldn't make sense to me as it says, "any aircraft for which the pilot is rated OR has privileges." The "or" indicates that either of those conditions must be met, and as I am rated for ASEL (complex/hi-perf are not ratings, they are endorsements), that first condition is met.

Yes, I realize that the way to avoid all of this mess is to just get my endorsements, then I don't have to worry about this - but, I simply don't have the cash at the moment (the gf and I just bought a house) to go do that. I'm more curious now as to whether my reading of this is correct. I appreciate the input (and Ric/Clint - nothing personal, I'm just confused still).
 
PJ you have a good grasp of the logging rules. You are allowed to log the time in the Bonanaza as PIC. Of course you are not allowed to ACT as PIC in the Bo until you get your high performance and complex endorsements. Ed should jump in here soon with his flowchart otherwise I can repost Troy Whistman's when I get home.
 
Rating isn't an endorsement just need category and class, you can log the time. You don't even have to be current or have a medical.

But there is a question of logging XC if you don't make a landing. There's a thread discussing asking the FAA for an answer.
 
Yeah, you had sent me those flowcharts a long time ago, and that's where I came across my original conclusion. I know that I'm not able to ACT as PIC without the endorsements, but I thought that the logging rules were different. Thanks for the quick response.
 
http://webpages.charter.net/edfred/LoggingPIC.pdf

Now, never ask this question again, or I will fly down there and beat you.

Also, print off about 100 copies and leave em littered in FBOs in your area <-- this goes for everyone.

As for Ric and Clint - back to kindergarten for some remedial reading comprehension!
 
Thanks Ed. If I post this question again on Saturday will that get you to come down to Hobby for Wings & Wheels? I'll take the beating if that's what gets people to fly down ;).
 
I don't anticipate being there. I hear it takes 5-1/2 months to wash the smell of Houston off. :D
 
In case anyone asks the authority by which you say that "rated" in the context of 14 CFR 61.51(e) refers only to ratings on the pilot certificate, and not 61.31 additional training endorsements, you can tell them it was written in 1998 by Mr. Donald P. Byrne, then-Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulation.
 
EdFred said:
Also, print off about 100 copies and leave em littered in FBOs in your area <-- this goes for everyone.
Click to expand...

Ed - posted to the club's Blog, probably more effective distribution
 
t0r0nad0 said:
I would be able to log the time that I am the sole manipulator of the controls since I am rated for ASEL, despite not having a complex and high performance endorsements. Ric and Clint tell me that I am incorrect, and that I need the endorsements to log PIC time. I can log that as total time, and time in type for insurance reasons in the future, but not PIC time that can be used for an additional rating (which really stinks, because I have about 4+ hrs in the past month of X-C PIC time in that plane logged thus far, which I was hoping to use towards my instrument rating).
Click to expand...
A couple of thoughts and EdFred or anyone else can correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. Since you have a rating in cat/class you can log PIC anytime you are sole manipulator. However, since you don't mention using a hood, the operation does not require two pilots so only one can log PIC for the flight. Since it's his plane, I'd say that means if he chooses to log PIC because he's acting as PIC, you're out of luck chuck legally.

Also since you're not doing any takeoffs or landings, whether or not you can log the time as XC is debatable. Some feel you need to perform a landing at an airport more than 50NM away in order to count it as XC, others feel that while the flight has to include a landing more than 50NM away for it to count, there's nothing that says you have to perform that landing in order to log XC time.
 
Since it's his plane, I'd say that means if he chooses to log PIC because he's acting as PIC, you're out of luck chuck legally.
Click to expand...
No, the owner of the plane has no basis for logging PIC, nor "denying" the right to log PIC to the sole manipulator, in the stated scenario (sole manipulator not under the hood, operation has no requirement for 2 pilots).

The owner must necessarily be acting as PIC, as he is the only pilot aboard with HP/complex endorsements, but unless he's also a CFI giving flight instruction, he's logging nothing, he has no choice in this matter.
-harry
 
Joe Gremlin said:
A couple of thoughts and EdFred or anyone else can correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. Since you have a rating in cat/class you can log PIC anytime you are sole manipulator.
Click to expand...

No arguments here.

However, since you don't mention using a hood, the operation does not require two pilots so only one can log PIC for the flight. Since it's his plane, I'd say that means if he chooses to log PIC because he's acting as PIC, you're out of luck chuck legally.
Click to expand...

Actually, no, the NON-flying pilot, owner or not is out of luck - at least with the FAA. There is nothing under 61.51 that would allow the owner to log PIC time if he's just sitting like a lump in one of the seats.

Also since you're not doing any takeoffs or landings, whether or not you can log the time as XC is debatable. Some feel you need to perform a landing at an airport more than 50NM away in order to count it as XC, others feel that while the flight has to include a landing more than 50NM away for it to count, there's nothing that says you have to perform that landing in order to log XC time.
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<area color="#888888">
 
I hate reviving an old thread, but in §61.51(e)(i): Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

What would the "or has privileges" represent? Would it represent high-performance/complex endorsements? Or is it irrelevant because of the word "or" and not "and."

Thanks!
 
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