Hello, I am a brand new CFI and my employer decided to make me a training pilot. I will provide initial training for new hires as well as quarterly training to all pilots. My first trainee is a commercial pilot with an instrument rating and high performance endorsement, as required by the company. Included in the training, I will be required to provide about 30 hours of IFR training to my trainee including approaches, holds, intercepting/tracking etc. I am not a CFI-I. I have no issue providing the training as my trainee is current in all things IFR, my question is, can I log the IFR training in my logbook “as flight instructor” and “dual received in his? Thank you for any answers.
Logging “As Flight Instructor” Time
- Thread starter BPCFI
- Start date
My $.02
I would say yes since "authorized instructor" for instrument purposes is not required in this case given the trainee already has an instrument rating. And even if the trainee did not have an instrument rating, you could log training, it just wouldn't count as training toward the instrument rating since you are not an authorized instructor. Sort of like a private student getting instrument training from a CFI without an instrument rating on his flight instructor certificate.
What does your employer have to say about it?
I would say yes since "authorized instructor" for instrument purposes is not required in this case given the trainee already has an instrument rating. And even if the trainee did not have an instrument rating, you could log training, it just wouldn't count as training toward the instrument rating since you are not an authorized instructor. Sort of like a private student getting instrument training from a CFI without an instrument rating on his flight instructor certificate.
What does your employer have to say about it?
Clip4
Final Approach
I would log the time as company initial/recurrent training given in both logbooks and nothing more.
Thank you, my company has me log the time in our company training log and says do want you want with your personal logbook.
Clip4
Final Approach
61.51 - A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.
61.189 A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
schmookeeg
En-Route
I always liked the idea of logging from the back seat (presumably while throwing hot instructor wisdom nuggets at the back of learner pilot heads for the entire flight). I thought they disallowed that, but I re-read 61.195 and can't find the instructor-at-a-flight-station requirement. Edit... apparently it's in some legal letter, not the regs? hmph. https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/news/2019/march/01/instructing-from-the-passenger-seat
Never done it personally, but it cheers me up to think about every time.
The very idea of being such an obnoxious and blowhard CFI grows my little grinch heart.
Never done it personally, but it cheers me up to think about every time.
The very idea of being such an obnoxious and blowhard CFI grows my little grinch heart.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you read the interpretation, it's based on a combination of several regs.
schmookeeg
En-Route
Yeah. I understand their rationale. I just didn't put the same construction on the regs as-written, as I treat them as black-or-white, not nuanced with "well therefore what we obviously meant was...". Not the first time.
Thanks again everyone for the discussion, It looks like I’m good to go to for logging the training for myself and my trainee. I chatted with a local DPE and he agreed. I can’t do an IPC or anything that requires a sign-off for the IFR rating, but since the guy is rated and current, there is no issue.
If your company has an operating certificate, and you are an authorized instructor on that certificate, you can conduct any required instruction required that you are authorized for. An authorized instructor on that certificate doesn't even have to be a CFI.
Clip4
Final Approach
Provided the person meets 1-6 for a 135 certificate holder,
(1) Holds the airman certificates and ratings required to serve as a pilot in command in operations under this part;
(2) Has satisfactorily completed the training phases for the aircraft, including recurrent training, that are required to serve as a pilot in command in operations under this part;
(3) Has satisfactorily completed the proficiency or competency checks that are required to serve as a pilot in command in operations under this part;
(4) Has satisfactorily completed the applicable training requirements of § 135.340;
(5) Holds at least a Class III medical certificate; and
(6) Has satisfied the recency of experience requirements of § 135.247.
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Greg Bockelman
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Class III? That seems a little weird
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Maybe to allow super competent senior pilots who are no longer medically cleared to act as PIC within the operation to give trainees the benefit of their expertise?
(Kind of like a CFI not requiring any medical at all unles acting as crew or PIC?)
Clip4
Final Approach
Or just to allow a person with a Class 2 that expired to keep working.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I’m just curious what kind of job requires 30 hours of instrument training.
Greg Bockelman
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Are there 135 outfits that allow non line pilots to be company instructors? In my former world, both 121 and 135, instructor pilots were required to be line pilots.
Clip4
Final Approach
In todays world I suspect the 135 line pilot turnover is very high.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
135 says
DesertNomad
Pattern Altitude
If you have never flown instruments from the right seat, just know that it is a bit different. You are looking to your left more and there may be a tendency for you to drift left of course some. If you are not flying, not a big deal, but if you are in IMC, be very aware of it. You might want to get a bit of right seat hood time.
Tantalum
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I love it! If we're splitting hairs there's no requirement for a safety pilot to be in reach of the controls either.. hmmmNever done it personally, but it cheers me up to think about every time.
Spirit of the law and letter of the law and all that.
91.109
(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot …
The letter of the law appears pretty clear to me.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
I guess splitting hairs requires looking at the hairs, eh?
Tantalum
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MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
It’s amazing what we missed before someone points out the obvious, isn’t it?
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Nothing idiotic. I think it's just one of the cognitive biases. I think it's called "anchoring." End up being so focused on 61.51 we neglect the main safety pilot regulation.