log book entry???

P

pilotpa

Guest
recently i flew on a 91K flight in a king air 350

now to act as PIC i need a type rating for this plane

the Q i have is as a multi commercial rated pilot can i log SIC, XC, and TOTAL time?

or do i also have to go to flight training schools and get typed in this aircraft??
 
Well, let's go look at the FAR, shall we? 61.51(f):
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

So, if the airplane requires two pilots on it's TC, and you're qualified in accordance with 61.55, you can log the time and SIC. I think (but can't quote a reg) you can log the X/C time too.

If the airplane DOESN'T require two pilots, but the 91K regs or the OPSpecs do, then you can also log SIC time.

A type rating isn't required for SIC time, as I read the regs, if the flight is domestic in the US.
 
You can also log the time if the PIC was an CFI giving you training. Otherwise, Tim's pretty well hit it -- unless two pilots were required for the flight (either by type certificate or regulation) and you were the designated SIC (and you'd have to be 61.55-qualified to be serving as SIC), you can't log anything, and since you don't hold a BE350 type rating, you can't log it under the "sole manipulator" clause of 61.51(e)(1).
 
That's how I did it. My Seneca II MEI was also a King Air Pilot. (We worked for the same company that owned the King Air)

So I'd "ride along" right seat, it was not a two pilot operation. But when the seats in the back were empty, I'd fly right seat and log dual received in the Be200 and Be1900. I got 50hrs of "turbine" time that way.
 
thank u guy's i was wondering b/c since the 350 was a TYPE rating.. and require's formal ground school and faa ride..

i knew that PIC time was not an option but SIC and other logable time.

the captain's are not CFI's

checking ops specs to see if that plane is required 2 pilots b/c i know the captains are single pilot qualified
 
pilotpa said:
checking ops specs to see if that plane is required 2 pilots b/c i know the captains are single pilot qualified
Click to expand...
Are you a company co-pilot? Because the mention of "ops specs" suggests a 135 operation, and...
Section 135.115: Manipulation of controls.
No pilot in command may allow any person to manipulate the flight controls of an aircraft during flight conducted under this part, nor may any person manipulate the controls during such flight unless that person is—
(a) A pilot employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft; or
(b) An authorized safety representative of the Administrator who has the permission of the pilot in command, is qualified in the aircraft, and is checking flight operations.
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
Are you a company co-pilot? Because the mention of "ops specs" suggests a 135 operation, and...
Click to expand...

It's a fractional program under FAR 91 Subpart "K", and yes they have "op-specs" like a Part 135 program.

91.1001 Applicability


(8) Fractional ownership program management services or program management services mean administrative and aviation support services furnished in accordance with the applicable requirements of this subpart or provided by the program manager on behalf of the fractional owners, including, but not limited to, the—
(i) Establishment and implementation of program safety guidelines;
(ii) Employment, furnishing, or contracting of pilots and other crewmembers;
(iii) Training and qualification of pilots and other crewmembers and personnel;
(iv) Scheduling and coordination of the program aircraft and crews;
(v) Maintenance of program aircraft;
(vi) Satisfaction of recordkeeping requirements;
(vii) Development and use of a program operations manual and procedures; and
(viii) Application for and maintenance of management specifications and other authorizations and approvals.
 
Sorry -- missed the 91K reference. In that case, if the ops specs require two pilots, you'd have to be SIC qualified and on the company paperwork, in which case you can log SIC time, but I gather you're not a company co-pilot. In that case, you couldn't be getting training because they can't do training on a 91K flight. I don't see any prohibition in 91K on passengers manipulating the controls as there is under 135, but it may still be prohibited by the ops specs, company flight manual, etc. All things considered, unless there's some unusual exception in the company's rules, you aren't going to be able to log this time, and that captain may have broken the rules to let you fly the plane. I'd suggest keeping it under your hat.
 
Ron Levy said:
..... I'd suggest keeping it under your hat.
Click to expand...
Ooops! too late!:smile: About the only way I can see in this case to log SIC time while not being a company-approved co-pilot would be to act as a safety pilot while the PIC is under the hood. That's a plain old FAR 91 operation.
 
Last edited:
TMetzinger said:
Ooops! too late!:smile: About the only way I can see in this case to log SIC time while not being a company-approved co-pilot would be to act as a safety pilot while the PIC is under the hood. That's a plain old FAR 91 operation.
Click to expand...
Not if it's a 91K flight, because then he's acting as a required pilot crewmember, and the 91K rules apply to him.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not if it's a 91K flight, because then he's acting as a required pilot crewmember, and the 91K rules apply to him.
Click to expand...
I think something got missed. I said/meant the only way he could act as an SIC WITHOUT being a company approved co-pilot (91K or 135) would be to be acting as a safety pilot under regular old 91 - meaning a non-pax flight flown under 91, not 91K.
 
TMetzinger said:
I think something got missed. I said/meant the only way he could act as an SIC WITHOUT being a company approved co-pilot (91K or 135) would be to be acting as a safety pilot under regular old 91 - meaning a non-pax flight flown under 91, not 91K.
Click to expand...
...and if he's not a company pilot, then it must be a passenger flight with him being one of the passengers.
 
Huh?

I don't understand. I'm positing that the flight is operated under part 91, with him just coming along as a safety pilot, as if the pilot was the owner. Perhaps that's not possible, but I guess it depends on the specific ownership of the airplane and the ops manual. But if the airplane doesn't require two pilots, there are no regs being violated by an appropriately rated PIC flying it under the hood with an appropriately rated safety pilot acting as SIC, are there?
 
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