Loans?
- Thread starter gcd89
- Start date
Yep, loans are,if you qualify. There are some grants out there, I don't know if there is a clearinghouse list of them anywhere. Not a lot of grants though.
The best thing to do if you want to fly as a career is to buy a Beech Travelair and start your training, don't even have to really bother with a single engine, but down the line a bit you can get your Single Engine Commercial add on in an amphibious plane and get rated Single Engine Land and Sea in one week. At 250 hrs you get your CFI and start selling multi ratings and time building in your plane. This is where it's a great advantage to start from the beginning in it as you've got 250hrs and 3 ratings in the airframe so you will be able to insure it for doing instruction at a reasonable rate.
You're going to spend over $100k anyway, so you might as well do it in a fashion that has a return potential.
Last edited:
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
And after you buy it, sink a shltload of money in the panel and try to sell it less than a year later. Typical pilot logic.
ajstoner21
Cleared for Takeoff
If you get any loans, make sure you can afford the payments on a pilot salary afterwards.
So? Completely different situation anyway and it's not like I'm getting hurt. I had my Travelair for over 10 years. I had my AgCat for one season. I had my Midget Mustang for almost 2 years. By the time he's applying for a job he'll need 1500hrs. He'll be money ahead by a long shot using my plan and he'll have 1500hrs of multi time and should be s- hot in the plane to do his ATP ride in it. He has an immediate job for the plane. If he does it the normal way he'll be going into the workforce with between $60k and $100k of fresh debt and no asset while have been making less money being a CFI in other peoples planes while they take the lions share of the instruction fee.
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
Henning, get a grip. The guy is trying to get a loan to pay for some flying lessons and you're off on one of your hare-brained schemes that quadruples the financial risk for a 25% chance of ever breaking even.
If you are set on being a career airline pilot, the money starts wasting fast and hard in the rental/training world. If you need to get to 1500hrs in a couple of /three years, you will be best off owning an airplane. All I'm saying is that if he's really going to do it, he may as well maximize his dollar value. By going the normal route he stands a 100% chance of being deeply in debt 15 years worth. There are plenty of multi rating outfits actually turning a profit on it, so it has a hell of a lot better potential of a return than no return potential. If you're gonna borrow money, might as well use it best you can. There is always a risk of failure, but with no risk, there is no reward. That's always the problem with accountants, no vision...
BTW, how am I quadrupling the financial risk?
ajstoner21
Cleared for Takeoff
I like your approach to this, Henning. It actually sounds like a good idea to me, as long as they are capable of getting a loan, and can afford the payments on said loan.
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
Publish the pro-forma, then we'll talk about it. Otherwise it's all hot air.
By incurring all the expense up front and betting on the come.
If you are set on being a career airline pilot, the money starts wasting fast and hard in the rental/training world. If you need to get to 1500hrs in a couple of /three years, you will be best off owning an airplane. All I'm saying is that if he's really going to do it, he may as well maximize his dollar value. By going the normal route he stands a 100% chance of being deeply in debt 15 years worth. There are plenty of multi rating outfits actually turning a profit on it, so it has a hell of a lot better potential of a return than no return potential. If you're gonna borrow money, might as well use it best you can. There is always a risk of failure, but with no risk, there is no reward. That's always the problem with accountants, no vision...
BTW, how am I quadrupling the financial risk?
By incurring all the expense up front and betting on the come.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I know a girl who did this. It would have gone really well if she hadn't landed her twin on the nosegear and broke it off. I don't know with the accident if she ever made it to the Majors or not.
Another girl, same scenario, never rented out the plane, just bought a 310 and flew the crap out of it until she got hired by a regional. Probably still paying off the loan, but it was a second mortgage so maybe she just filed bankruptcy and went on with her life in an airliner cockpit.
All this was in the early 90s when home values were still climbing so she probably paid the 2nd off with the housing bubble actually.
Timing affects the outcome of the Raindance.
Another girl, same scenario, never rented out the plane, just bought a 310 and flew the crap out of it until she got hired by a regional. Probably still paying off the loan, but it was a second mortgage so maybe she just filed bankruptcy and went on with her life in an airliner cockpit.
All this was in the early 90s when home values were still climbing so she probably paid the 2nd off with the housing bubble actually.
Timing affects the outcome of the Raindance.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Buy a twin, disconnect the tachs/ on it, spin the ever living crap out of them with a drill, and "fly" the 1500 hundred hours in a year. Logbook matches the tachs, you are gtg. Sell the plane and take the loss on the "runout" engines. Still ahead vs buying all that fuel.
The only problem with that is the Sim Check at the interview, that's where "the rubber meets the road" so to speak. Your log book can say whatever, but 3 minutes in the sim shows whose book is lying.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I didn't say it wasn't without it's own issues.
Maybe he needs to fly the last 100 hours. Then again, he can't even legally drive a car and is complaining about it after sitting on his ass for 5 years without a d/l, so putting the time legitimately isn't exactly something I am expecting.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I REALLY hope that the above proposal is tongue in cheek humor and not serious.
As to Hennings plane purchase idea, it has financial merit in that there is an asset involved as opposed to student loans at high interest that can hang over someone forever. If all goes well, the asset can be redeemed at some point in the future for a partial payoff of the loan.
There is a lot of risk in the plan of course. There will be maintenance, hanger, insurance, etc......... There is also the risk of breaking off a nosewheel as pointed out in one of the posts. If that happens, I suppose it is a pretty good sign that you weren't meant to be an airline pilot and/or extremely unlucky.
Doc
I know 6 airline captains that did exactly what I said for their kids. I got great service with my Travelair. YMMV.
You bet it will...
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
Give me 24 hours and I'll produce 600 who didn't. It's a bad-odds deal no matter how you cut it. If you like to draw to inside straights, it might be right up your alley, and it's well-known that lightning does in fact strike the outhouse from time to time.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I generally go for the open end straight flush draw. Odds are better than 3 of a kind.
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
I generally go for the open end straight flush draw. Odds are better than 3 of a kind.
It helps if you can concentrate and keep your head in the game. I folded with a flush in a high-low game last week because I just wasn't paying attention.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Ouch. I've lost a few hands with a flush when I wasn't holding the A however.
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
The only good news was that nobody else saw the cards and, like a gentleman, I didn't tell them of my stupidity.
sferguson524
Pattern Altitude
I ended up financing my IR thru pilot finance.. they are a great bunch of people to work with.
I have no interest in ATP. And I;m already mostly done w/ my PPL, so after I do that, can I get a loan/grants and go straight into CPL training?
Is the general consensus to buy a plane (single or twin), and start training? I'm unsure the chain of events. I really want to have a 152 or something for personal use...would I be able to use it (or any plane I get) for CPL, or would it need to be IFR, or anything like that?
Is the general consensus to buy a plane (single or twin), and start training? I'm unsure the chain of events. I really want to have a 152 or something for personal use...would I be able to use it (or any plane I get) for CPL, or would it need to be IFR, or anything like that?
Last edited:
I did a career training loan through Sallie Mae back in 2005, the check was made out to me not the place where I built my hours/trained. .....After my total money makeover I would only recommend cash-flowing, saving or some combination thereof if possible. It shouldn't take more than 20k if your PPL is done...assuming your not going to a 141 place, which would be a wise decision.
Last edited:
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Many people buy airplanes for the purpose of building time, myself included. A non instrument plane will allow you to build the necessary cross country time, but if you get an instrument plane you can use it for about everything for your IR and CPL except your 10 hours complex time.
If you are planning on buying a plane anyway, why not?
Doc
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
There's no question that many people do it, but there's plenty of evidence to prove that it's not necessarily a smart decision. As a guy who's often asked for advice about the best way out of the trap (and in most cases there aren't any) I can recite numerous situations that went south and the reasons for the trainwreck.
The financial circumstances of the purchaser are the most critical part of the deal. If the airplane purchase and ongoing own/op expenses are a drop in the bucket relative to the owner's net worth and discretionary spending, any outcome can be rationalized and resolved without serious financial damage. If it's a shoestring deal, the potential for disaster is greatly enhanced, and Murphy somehow seems more likely to pay a call. The airport guys like to say that "the rich doctors" can earn their way around their mistakes, but the poor kids can't.
The most common problem in these deals is the purchaser's failure to realistically budget for all of the own/op costs when developing the own-vs-rent comparisons, and with the realization that the high component of capital costs (payments) and fixed costs that continue whether or not they fly their plane, and the amount of loss that may be incurred upon resale.
Instead, they focus on the hourly rental rate vs the cost of fuel for an owned airplane, and ignore or minimize the other costs that can wreak havoc with their pocketbook. I don't have a dog in this fight, but have watched enough wound-licking to know that an ounce of budgeting and financial reality can offset a pound of future financial grief.
The financial circumstances of the purchaser are the most critical part of the deal. If the airplane purchase and ongoing own/op expenses are a drop in the bucket relative to the owner's net worth and discretionary spending, any outcome can be rationalized and resolved without serious financial damage. If it's a shoestring deal, the potential for disaster is greatly enhanced, and Murphy somehow seems more likely to pay a call. The airport guys like to say that "the rich doctors" can earn their way around their mistakes, but the poor kids can't.
The most common problem in these deals is the purchaser's failure to realistically budget for all of the own/op costs when developing the own-vs-rent comparisons, and with the realization that the high component of capital costs (payments) and fixed costs that continue whether or not they fly their plane, and the amount of loss that may be incurred upon resale.
Instead, they focus on the hourly rental rate vs the cost of fuel for an owned airplane, and ignore or minimize the other costs that can wreak havoc with their pocketbook. I don't have a dog in this fight, but have watched enough wound-licking to know that an ounce of budgeting and financial reality can offset a pound of future financial grief.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I can't use an Arrow/Sierra/Comanche/Mooney/Bonanza for complex time?
I know a few people whose first planes were those.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I think your response to my quote might be taken out of context. I was responding specifically to gcd89 talking about buying a 150/152. I've yet to see one of these be considered a complex airplane.
Of course, if someone has the means to buy a complex aircraft from the get go, why would they NOT do all their training in it?
Doc
sferguson524
Pattern Altitude
Insurance. the flying club i am a member of wanted 150 hrs and 10 in Make and model to solo the arrow or 172RG
Which just shows that airlines captains are stupid in pretty much the same proportions as everyone else.
Pffftttt... The guy wants to be an airline pilot, he's got a whole crapload of bad odds he's looking at including ever getting hired. At least if he's instructing in his plane, he still has that business.
At the end of service when I sold my TA I figured my cost for 1100hrs of multi time was around $35hr, and I never instructed in it. I did have a good survey contract that went a couple hundred hours total and did some other photo/video oblique survey work with the rig.
I realize it takes effort and some entrepreneurial thought, but I will always chose having my own business over relying on someone else to provide my future. How many people have paid how much money to flight schools only to lose the whole bundle when the school folds? For what people paid Silver States, they could have bought an R-22 or 3 UH-11s.
Flight training is an industry rife with scumbags and risks of losing all your money. I've always done better when I was looking out for myself than when someone was leading me around.
That is not a problem that exceeds the "has the means" statement.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
If you have the money, you can buy the insurance. Will it be expen$ive? Yep, but you can get it. I would fully expect that if someone were well healed enough to buy such a plane, they would take into account the cost of insurance before purchasing the plane.
Doc
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
You can't fix stupid. Nobody held a gun on the people who wrote the big checks to the flight schools. The advantage of paying as you go on any aviation-related venture is that you can quit on your terms and timing. The inherent problem with aviation training is that the trainee is voluntarily incurring extremely high expenses in hopes of securing a very low-paying job. What's wrong with this picture?
Being tied to airplane payments and own/op expenses that you don't want, can't afford and can't sell is a horrible feeling. The perceived revenues in your scenario are doubtful at best, and if examined closely are probably less than break-even when all costs are included in the calculation. The OP now says he doesn't want an airline job anyway, so the argument is probably moot anyway.
If the guy wants to spend the same amount of money with much better profit opportunity and less risk, why wouldn't he just borrow $60,000 and buy a working interest in an oil well? If the well is successful, he could use the production checks to pay for flying lessons and still have the income stream after obtaining his ratings. If the well is a dry hole, he will still owe the bank 60k but the bleeding will stop when they plug the well.
Being tied to airplane payments and own/op expenses that you don't want, can't afford and can't sell is a horrible feeling. The perceived revenues in your scenario are doubtful at best, and if examined closely are probably less than break-even when all costs are included in the calculation. The OP now says he doesn't want an airline job anyway, so the argument is probably moot anyway.
If the guy wants to spend the same amount of money with much better profit opportunity and less risk, why wouldn't he just borrow $60,000 and buy a working interest in an oil well? If the well is successful, he could use the production checks to pay for flying lessons and still have the income stream after obtaining his ratings. If the well is a dry hole, he will still owe the bank 60k but the bleeding will stop when they plug the well.
Last edited:
It's insured...
What job are you looking at that will require you to have a CPL?
You know what, if you're looking to just stay in the light GA environment, I change my recommendation. Buy a Cessna 150 that is IFR equipped. You will be able to do all but 10 hrs of your single engine training all the way to CFI and then still have the plane to rent and instruct in. With a low price Cessna 150 in good condition you will have no problem bailing out of it and selling it. You'll come out ahead over a student loan that's for sure. You could also consider getting a Citabria. Go for a couple of aerobatic rides and see how it sits with you. It's niche market training which is always high margin, and a Citabria is not a difficult plane to own really. Thing about aviation is is it is expensive, so you have to make it start paying from as soon as possible, and waste as little as possible along the way. You can earn a living with a Citabria if you apply yourself. Heck, you can make a living with a 150 as well. If one applies themselves and studies how to best market themselves and starts that process while they are flying their asset over a greatly reduced hourly cost. If he applies himself and gets his CFI IA done in 250 hrs, he can start making money immediately.
Tomahawk would be another candidate plane.
With no airline aspirations a bunch of multi time isn't necessary really, so might as well go minimal.
I was under a false presumption you were looking at those airline captain dollars to be willing to finance flying.
Tomahawk would be another candidate plane.
With no airline aspirations a bunch of multi time isn't necessary really, so might as well go minimal.
I was under a false presumption you were looking at those airline captain dollars to be willing to finance flying.
Last edited:
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
Clinton didn't think he would get caught.
???? Clinton never got caught of any of his real transgressions. He just provided some Good Ol Boy distraction having an affair in the White House... You knew from the moment he played the sax on Arsenio Hal that he was gonna be a show to watch. Nobody ever said a word about cocaine... but then, everybody in government has their hands in that till. Heck, I bet if he could run again next year he'd win. The country's gone to hell since him, we jump at our own shadows....
Last edited: