LNAV VNAV question

My only guess is because for the LNAV/VNAV approach, you fly visually from 3.2 miles out, while the other approaches get you closer with guidance. So they might require you to see alot more due to more obstacles further away from the airport. You may be on the same basic course/glide path, but if you are flying minimums at 2 miles visibility, flying visual from 3.2 miles out, you could easily drift way off course if you arent correcting well for wind.

Why they want you to fly visually from 3.2 miles out, I dont know. I have not studied or done any gps approaches since I dont have access to a gps equiped plane.
 
A question on this approach:

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1013/06006R10.PDF

Why is the LNAV/VNAV minimums so much higher than all aother minimums, including circling?

Bryon,

A good question and an interesting approach. I suspect that the primary reason for the DA being higher than both the LPV and the LNAV has to do with the way the DA is determined when there are obstacles close in to the runway.

An Obstacle Clearance Slope (OCS) is used to determine the required obstacle clearance between the glidepath and obstacles for the LNAV/VNAV and the LPV, but they are calculated differently and are shaped differently. The width of the OCS for the LNAV/VNAV is much wider than the the one for LPV. Since the LNAV/VNAV can be flown by aircraft with Baro VNAV systems in addition to a WAAS GPS, they must have built in more protection for variations in temperatures and pressure variations. The effect is that the obstacle clearance has to be greater for the LNAV/VNAV than the LPV. When an obstacle particularly one close to the threshold penetrates the LNAV/VNAV OCS, the DA of the LNAV/VNAV is pushed back and therefore higher to the point where the OCS is the same height as the close in obstacle. So for a variety of reasons, the LNAV/VNAV will often end up with a higher DA than a LPV. The higher the DA, the further from the runway at the DA, the higher the visibility requirement at the DA. By moving the DA higher when there are close in obstacles, it puts them in the visual segment where the pilot can see and avoid them.

A LNAV MDA is is based on a single level required obstacle clearance, 250 feet above the highest obstacle. The 250 foot obstacle protection provides adequate clearance in the visual segment of the approach to allow the pilot to see and avoid obstacles. Unlike a DA, the MAP for a LNAV can go right up to the threshold at the MDA, so visibility requirements can be lower since you can get closer to the threshold.

The circling minimums are based on a 300 foot required obstacle clearance that is larger for aircraft with a faster approach speed. It is a visual maneuver and you must remain clear of clouds and keep the airport environment in sight.

So, with this one approach, you note several apparent inconsistencies. The LPV has the lowest DA, but the visibility requirement is higher than the LNAV approach (at least for Category A). The LNAV/VNAV has a much higher DA than the LNAV and the visibility requirements are also much higher. Furthermore, if you just meet the visibility requirement at the DA of the LNAV/VNAV (2 miles), you won't be able to see the runway (3.2 miles away). So how can you ever complete the approach under these circumstances? Answer, "fly visual to airport", which is authorized as long as the visibility is 2 miles. The fly visual note authorizes the pilot to continue the approach even though none of the required 91.175 cues are met as long as the visibility is met. The pilot is responsible for altitude, terrain and obstacle clearance, VFR traffic avoidance and navigation to the runway and must remain clear of clouds. However, in general with a fly visual, the pilot is also responsible for determining his own missed approach procedure plan once he leaves the DA. In this case, it should not be an issue because of the requirements of the underlying approaches.

A final point, as this approach is charted, the visual segment to the runway may not be clear of obstacles on a 20 to 1 slope. This can be determined by the lack of a VDP for the LNAV being published.
 
Bryon,

A good question and an interesting approach. I suspect that the primary reason for the DA being higher than both the LPV and the LNAV has to do with the way the DA is determined when there are obstacles close in to the runway.

An Obstacle Clearance Slope (OCS) is used to determine the required obstacle clearance between the glidepath and obstacles for the LNAV/VNAV and the LPV, but they are calculated differently and are shaped differently. The width of the OCS for the LNAV/VNAV is much wider than the the one for LPV. Since the LNAV/VNAV can be flown by aircraft with Baro VNAV systems in addition to a WAAS GPS, they must have built in more protection for variations in temperatures and pressure variations. The effect is that the obstacle clearance has to be greater for the LNAV/VNAV than the LPV. When an obstacle particularly one close to the threshold penetrates the LNAV/VNAV OCS, the DA of the LNAV/VNAV is pushed back and therefore higher to the point where the OCS is the same height as the close in obstacle. So for a variety of reasons, the LNAV/VNAV will often end up with a higher DA than a LPV. The higher the DA, the further from the runway at the DA, the higher the visibility requirement at the DA. By moving the DA higher when there are close in obstacles, it puts them in the visual segment where the pilot can see and avoid them.

This is reasonable and I understand. That would be what I would have figured.

A LNAV MDA is is based on a single level required obstacle clearance, 250 feet above the highest obstacle. The 250 foot obstacle protection provides adequate clearance in the visual segment of the approach to allow the pilot to see and avoid obstacles. Unlike a DA, the MAP for a LNAV can go right up to the threshold at the MDA, so visibility requirements can be lower since you can get closer to the threshold.

The circling minimums are based on a 300 foot required obstacle clearance that is larger for aircraft with a faster approach speed. It is a visual maneuver and you must remain clear of clouds and keep the airport environment in sight.

This part eludes me a little. I understand what you are saying, but wouldn't these less accurate approaches also run into the problem with the obstacle penetrating the approach area, and needing an extra 250 or 300 feet should put them higher yet. That would put them higher than the LNAV/VNAV DA, which is what I would expect. Since all approaches for this use the same lateral navigation, if a pilot used the "dive and drive method," they could very well be at 1800 before the LNAV/VNAV DA point, and run through that same obstacle area causing problems with the LNAV/VNAV DA. That makes no sense to me.


.... Furthermore, if you just meet the visibility requirement at the DA of the LNAV/VNAV (2 miles), you won't be able to see the runway (3.2 miles away). So how can you ever complete the approach under these circumstances? Answer, "fly visual to airport", which is authorized as long as the visibility is 2 miles. The fly visual note authorizes the pilot to continue the approach even though none of the required 91.175 cues are met as long as the visibility is met. The pilot is responsible for altitude, terrain and obstacle clearance, VFR traffic avoidance and navigation to the runway and must remain clear of clouds. However, in general with a fly visual, the pilot is also responsible for determining his own missed approach procedure plan once he leaves the DA. In this case, it should not be an issue because of the requirements of the underlying approaches.

This part I understand and is the same for many approaches with granite around them. You need to procede visually, even though you do not have the visual references in site, until you get to the point in the approach where you either acquire the runway environment or run less than the visibility requirements and execute a missed approach.
 
My only guess is because for the LNAV/VNAV approach, you fly visually from 3.2 miles out, while the other approaches get you closer with guidance. So they might require you to see alot more due to more obstacles further away from the airport. You may be on the same basic course/glide path, but if you are flying minimums at 2 miles visibility, flying visual from 3.2 miles out, you could easily drift way off course if you arent correcting well for wind.

Why they want you to fly visually from 3.2 miles out, I dont know. I have not studied or done any gps approaches since I dont have access to a gps equiped plane.

The reason you have to fly 3.2 miles to the airport is because that is where the LNAV/VNAV DA ends at. You may have to fly 1.2 miles to acquire the runway environment.
 
Mountianous terrain here
I know and understand that, what I don't get is why the lower minimums for, say, a circling approach as opposed to the LNAV/VNAV part. I actually enjoy Tennesee, as that is where my daughter and granddaughter live. A little bumpy sometimes, but beautiful.
 
This part eludes me a little. I understand what you are saying, but wouldn't these less accurate approaches also run into the problem with the obstacle penetrating the approach area, and needing an extra 250 or 300 feet should put them higher yet. That would put them higher than the LNAV/VNAV DA, which is what I would expect. Since all approaches for this use the same lateral navigation, if a pilot used the "dive and drive method," they could very well be at 1800 before the LNAV/VNAV DA point, and run through that same obstacle area causing problems with the LNAV/VNAV DA. That makes no sense to me.

You used the term "less accurate approaches" for an LNAV. The LNAV lateral guidance and LNAV/VNAV are identical. What is different about the two is that the LNAV/VNAV has vertical guidance to enable a stabilized approach. If there is an obstacle that affects the LNAV 250 feet ROC (Required Obstacle Clearance), the MDA moves up one foot for each foot of additional obstacle height. It also makes no difference where the obstacle is along the final approach course. If the pilot is at the MDA, they can be assured that there are no obstacles within the first 250 feet below them.

In the case of an LNAV/VNAV there is a sloping OCS (Obstacle Clearance Surface) that underlies the glidepath. If an obstacle penetrates the OCS, the DA is moved further away from the obstacle because the height of the obstacle is projected back along the OCS until it reaches a point where they are the same. This distance can be on the order of miles. The DA is located at this point. Since the glidepath is a steeper slope than the OCS, it means that 1 foot of additional obstacle height will translate into more than one foot of DA increase. In general, the higher DA results from close in obstacles to make sure they are in the visual segment so the pilot can see and avoid them.

View attachment LNAV VNAV OCS penetration.pdf

I have simplified the topic for this discussion, but if you are interested in the nitty gritty technical details, study http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...cies_guidance/orders/media/Order_8260.54A.pdf
 
John:

Fascinating stuff - thanks!
 
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