LLCs for personal-use planes: tax return practices

Lon33

Lon33

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Lon
I'm trying to find out what, if anything, actually gets reported (in the real world) on tax returns filed by members of LLCs that own personal-use planes. By "personal use," I mean planes that are flown only for pleasure -- not for business -- so tax deductions are not taken for operating expenses or depreciation.

I know that a member of a single-member LLC is permitted to report the LLC's income and expenses on Schedule C of the member's personal Form 1040. And I know that the members of a multi-member LLC are expected to report the LLC's income and expenses on Form 1065. Virtually everything I've come across in my research has concerned LLCs that are in business, so they have (or hope to have) business income and deductible expenses. I have found very little about the reporting obligations of LLCs that own non-business personal-use property (and the little I have found concerned personal-use vacation homes, not airplanes).

If the LLC owns a personal-use airplane, it seems to me that there are three possible ways that tax returns can be handled, and my question boils down to: Which way is it actually done?:

1. The LLC's member(s) may not file tax returns at all, on the grounds that the LLC doesn't have any income or deductible expenses.

2. The LLC's member(s) may file a Form 1040 Schedule C or a Form 1065 that reports $0 income and $0 deductions, again on the grounds that the LLC doesn't have any income or deductible expenses.

3. The LLC's members(s) may file a Form 1040 Schedule C or Form 1065 that reports
- as income: the amount of money the member(s) have deposited into the LLC's bank account to pay for the plane's expenses; and
- as deductible expenses: the amount of money the LLC has spent on those expenses.

If #3 is what's actually done, I'm curious about how deposits for future maintenance and engine overhauls are accounted for. Are they reported as non-income capital contributions, or are they reported as current income and then offset by depreciation deductions?

I'm not looking for legal or accounting advice. I'm just trying to determine what's actually being done, by those who own planes in LLCs.
 
Disclaimer - Free advice from a random stranger on the internet is worth exactly what you paid for it!

I'd recommend establishing a "Fair rental rate" that covers fixed/variable costs and associated reserves. Now your LLC has income. However, you want to minimize your income for tax reporting purposes. You'll want to include depreciation on your federal income tax form as well as any costs associated with this business (fuel, oil, hangar, charts.

In some years, your LLC might report a loss for tax purposes, which may offset ordinary income reported by the members of the LLC. You may want to talk with a tax professional about "hobby loss" provisions, especially if you are planning several years of losses for the LLC.
 
LLCs are transparent as far as taxes are concern, and since it's your personal plane, it don't protect you from liability, so it's useless


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Lon33 said:
I'm not looking for legal or accounting advice. I'm just trying to determine what's actually being done, by those who own planes in LLCs.
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You need to speak to an accountant. Or a tax attorney. The problem with asking other people what they're doing is it may not work for you. Plus they may not know. Many of my non lawyer clients could not explain to you the legal or accounting structures of their businesses because they generally hire professionals and follow their advice. Nevertheless, many of them might try to explain it to you and get it all wrong or leave out important details. The advice that you get here will be worth what you pay for it. You should start by discussing this with whoever set up the LLC books.
 
When you formed this LLC what kind of tax election did you make? The default for single member LLCs is sole proprietorship. In that case the member just reports any income on his or her schedule C.

If there is more than one member then the default federal tax treatment is partnership. The LLC may elect to be taxed as an S or C corporation by filing a form with the IRS. In all cases a multi member LLC will have some requirement to file something with the IRS.

If there is more than one member then it is important that the LLC is run as real company. That means getting an EIN from the IRS, having a separate bank account, etc.

In Texas an LLC has to file reports with the State Comptroller and the Secretary of State. If you miss a required report then your LLC can disappear.

I'm sure California has a lot of reporting and filing requirements.

I'd suggest consulting an Enrolled Agent or CPA in your state, don't try to do this just on Legal Zoom.

I'm on the board of my flying club, we are a C corporation. We have a CPA prepare our corporate returns and handle the state reporting requirements. We never make a profit, so we never have to pay income tax.

I'm an Enrolled Agent, but not a lawyer so I can't commit on liability protection.
 
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JimNtexas said:
When you formed this LLC what kind of tax election did you make? The default for single member LLCs is sole proprietorship. In that case the member just reports any income on his or her schedule C.

If there is more than one member then the default federal tax treatment is partnership. The LLC may elect to be taxed as an S or C corporation by filing a form with the IRS. In all cases a multi member LLC will have some requirement to file something with the IRS.

If there is more than one member then it is important that the LLC is run as real company. That means getting an EIN from the IRS, having a separate bank account, etc.

In Texas an LLC has to file reports with the State Comptroller and the Secretary of State. If you miss a required report then your LLC can disappear.

I'm sure California has a lot of reporting and filing requirements.

I'd suggest consulting an Enrolled Agent or CPA in your state, don't try to do this just on Legal Zoom.

I'm on the board of my flying club, we are a C corporation. We have a CPA prepare our corporate returns and handle the state reporting requirements. We never make a profit, so we never have to pay income tax.

I'm an Enrolled Agent, but not a lawyer so I can't commit on liability protection.
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Jim,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I'm a law professor. I teach tax and aviation law, and my post is like field research into what people do in the real world. The reason that law library research hasn't been enough is that tax law's reporting requirements for an LLC (i.e., file a Schedule C or Form 1065) presume that the LLC is engaged in business. LLCs that own personal-use planes are not really in business. This matters, because only business expenses are deductible. And money paid to an LLC by its members to cover the plane's operating expenses is really just being passed through the LLC's bank account, so it's not "income" to the LLC in the business sense of the word.

I'm looking for what LLC members actually do when they've chosen one of the defaults: single-member = sole proprietorship; multi-member = partnership.

You wrote that the single-member LLC member reports his "income on his or her schedule C."


  • But what "income" does an LLC have if its plane is used for personal flights only?
A personal-use LLC doesn't have business income, or deductible expenses.


  • Is it your experience that single-member LLC members report (on Schedule C) as "income" the amount they deposited in the LLC's account to cover the plane's operating expenses, and also report the amount spent as deductible business expenses?
As a general rule, I know that multi-member LLCs are expected to file a Form 1065, if they have opted for the default to be treated as a partnership. But, as a matter of tax law, a "partnership" is an organization that is engaged in business. An LLC that owns a personal-use plane is not technically in "business." It is simply an asset-owning entity. For that reason, at least one tax lawyer (and tax book author) has written that an LLC that owns only personal-use property does not have to file anything at all with the IRS. (His example was a vacation home -- not an airplane -- owned by an LLC whose members were siblings.)

I'm trying to find out whether pilots who put their personal-use planes in an LLC also file nothing, because their LLCs are not in business, or whether they do file Schedule Cs or 1065s.

Jim, I assume that your C corporation never makes a profit because the amount that you and your fellow shareholders pay into the corporation is equal to the amount the corporation pays for the plane's operating expenses, and that the corporation reports what it receives from you as "income" and deducts what it pays out in operating expenses.


  • What, though, does your corporation do about payments you and your fellow shareholders pay the corporation towards reserves for maintenance and overhauls? Does the corporation report those as capital contributions, or are they offset by depreciation deductions?
Thanks,

Lon
 
...our partnership is a LLC for our 235 but it's not for tax reasons (although we have a CPA do the books for us every year). It's primarily for liability and it allows us to create by-laws, voting rights, etc... as everyone has 'shares' in the plane.

But agree, you need an accountant.
 
kenjr said:
...our partnership is a LLC for our 235 but it's not for tax reasons (although we have a CPA do the books for us every year). It's primarily for liability and it allows us to create by-laws, voting rights, etc... as everyone has 'shares' in the plane.

But agree, you need an accountant.
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LLCs have become very popular for plane ownership, for the very reasons you and your partners use one: to limit liability and to create a structure for decision-making. In states that charge sales tax even on the resale of part-interests in a plane (i.e., states that do not have an exemption for occasional sales), putting a plane in an LLC will save on sales taxes, because selling an interest in an LLC is not the sale of tangible property and thus not subject to sales tax.

However -- and here's what triggers my interest -- LLCs can be expensive to maintain. Here in California, every LLC must pay an annual tax of $800, even if the LLC has no profits, indeed, even if it has no revenue. And in order to pay that tax, every LLC must file a state tax return, even if one isn't required by the IRS. So, I'm trying to determine (a) the full cost of using an LLC for personal-use plane ownership, and (b) whether there's a less expensive way for Californian's to get the same benefits they get from having an LLC.

I suspect that there in Texas, there is no state LLC tax.

If you know what your accountant reports as "income" (not the amounts; just what types of payments he treats as "income") and how he handles expense deductions -- especially how he handles amounts paid to the LLC for maintenance and overhauls -- I'd sure love to hear about it.
 
Lon: Texas does have a tax on all risk-shifting entities (LP, Inc., LLC, etc.), but there is a gross receipts floor, so that may not be an issue unless it involves a very high-value entity. There are also annual burdens for compliance.

In my view, the substantial increase in use of corps and LLCs for aircraft ownership is the direct result of radio ads for "self-help legal services" companies that warn folks against "high attorneys' fees" and push folks to create entities that they don't need (but, ironically, cannot know that they don't need because - hey! - they don't give legal advice).
 
SCCutler said:
Lon: Texas does have a tax on all risk-shifting entities (LP, Inc., LLC, etc.), but there is a gross receipts floor, so that may not be an issue unless it involves a very high-value entity. There are also annual burdens for compliance.

In my view, the substantial increase in use of corps and LLCs for aircraft ownership is the direct result of radio ads for "self-help legal services" companies that warn folks against "high attorneys' fees" and push folks to create entities that they don't need (but, ironically, cannot know that they don't need because - hey! - they don't give legal advice).
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Here in California, the Secretary of State has made it so easy to create an LLC that folks can do it themselves, and do, without consulting even a self-help legal service. The forms are online and simply require filling some blank spaces. It's a good revenue-generator for the state, because California collects $800 every time an LLC is created. Eventually, an accountant will ask LLC members why their lawyer recommended they use an LLC, and they'll tell the accountant that they never talked with a lawyer -- that they did it themselves. And the accountant will then recommend that they close out the LLC and continue doing themselves, as individuals, whatever the LLC had been doing. Why? To save $800 a year in tax and the cost of preparing LLC tax returns.
 
An airplane can be an interstate asset. As such, you may get some options in deciding which state your LLC should be registered in. Nevada and Delaware are good options if you can legitimately do so.
 
hook_dupin said:
An airplane can be an interstate asset. As such, you may get some options in deciding which state your LLC should be registered in. Nevada and Delaware are good options if you can legitimately do so.
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Yes, but if the plane is based in California, California will demand that the LLC become qualified to do business here, and will charge it $800/year even though the LLC is a Nevada or Delaware LLC.
 
What, though, does your corporation do about payments you and your fellow shareholders pay the corporation towards reserves for maintenance and overhauls? Does the corporation report those as capital contributions, or are they offset by depreciation deductions?
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Our flying club receives income in the form of dues and hourly charges and of course has many expenses. Our three airplanes I think are depreciated out, but we do depreciate the engines and track our basis.

Because we generally have to pay assessments from time to time those amount to contributions of capital. Our treasurer and CPA prepare a full balance sheet and files a form 1120. We never show a profit, but we are very careful to fill all the squares required of a 'real' corporation in terms of book keeping, tax returns, state reporting requirements, annual meeting minutes, etc. Nothing resembling a dividend is ever remitted to members.

I spoke to my senior partner/spouse, who represents clients in audits on a weekly basis. She suggests that a zero income/zero expense 'business' on an individual return is going to raise questions in an audit. The auditor is going to want to to be convinced that you are not hiding income via this LLC.

She suggested that a hypothetical airplane owning LLC consider electing to be taxed as a C corporation to insulate the LLC from the owners for tax purposes. This LLC will have to do as my flying club does and be careful to keep accurate books and comply with all the requirements of a 'real' corporation.

I'm not a lawyer, but I did attend a law school seminar on LLCs and Partnerships last week, and the main takeaway I had from that is that for liability purposes your LCC needs to act like 'real' company in order for the owners to preserve whatever liability protection might obtain from the LLC entity.

As far as selling the LLC so as to avoid sales tax I think that might work, but if the State finds out about it they are very likely to call it a shame transaction and attempt to recoup tax.

Elon Musk owns his Falcon 900 in his own name, and he's my hero.
 
hook_dupin said:
An airplane can be an interstate asset. As such, you may get some options in deciding which state your LLC should be registered in. Nevada and Delaware are good options if you can legitimately do so.
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In most states you'll have to register our out of state ('foreign') LLC in the state where you base the airplane, so you'll wind up doing the same work twice. If your LLC runs into some legal issue you'll need to hire both a local lawyer and a Delaware lawyer.

The Delaware Chancery Court is supposed to be a great place for large businesses to duke it out, but is probably overkill for the scenario of this thread.
 
hook_dupin said:
An airplane can be an interstate asset. As such, you may get some options in deciding which state your LLC should be registered in. Nevada and Delaware are good options if you can legitimately do so.
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Heh.

This way, you can pay to maintain the LLC (or corp or LP) in the state of creation, *and* the state in which you base the aircraft.

Plus, in many states, holding an aircraft in corporate name creates a presumption that the aircraft is a business asset, and thus subject to taxation on a business rather than personal basis.

Plus, you get to pay all the interest and penalties on the taxes and fees you didn't pay for all those years you thought you did not have to pay taxes because your plane was registered to a Nevada or Delaware entity.

Plus, you get to pay sales or use tax in your home state, with penalties.

Such a deal! :D
 
My aircraft is listed as an asset in an LLC with other assets. Since there is no income generated, or even appreciation of asset value for the aircraft, there is no tax issue other than registration and sales tax fees paid to own it.

It would seem most would fall into that bucket.

Is your question really one that asks if a pleasure, non income aircraft happens to be listed in an LLC with other aircraft assets does that aircraft get confused with the income makers? No.

From a tax perspective, as you likely know being an expert. Income generated by a give aircraft is the main consideration, not the association of the aircraft within an LLC.
 
JimNtexas said:
Our flying club receives income in the form of dues and hourly charges and of course has many expenses. Our three airplanes I think are depreciated out, but we do depreciate the engines and track our basis.

Because we generally have to pay assessments from time to time those amount to contributions of capital. Our treasurer and CPA prepare a full balance sheet and files a form 1120. We never show a profit, but we are very careful to fill all the squares required of a 'real' corporation in terms of book keeping, tax returns, state reporting requirements, annual meeting minutes, etc. Nothing resembling a dividend is ever remitted to members.

I spoke to my senior partner/spouse, who represents clients in audits on a weekly basis. She suggests that a zero income/zero expense 'business' on an individual return is going to raise questions in an audit. The auditor is going to want to to be convinced that you are not hiding income via this LLC.

She suggested that a hypothetical airplane owning LLC consider electing to be taxed as a C corporation to insulate the LLC from the owners for tax purposes. This LLC will have to do as my flying club does and be careful to keep accurate books and comply with all the requirements of a 'real' corporation.

I'm not a lawyer, but I did attend a law school seminar on LLCs and Partnerships last week, and the main takeaway I had from that is that for liability purposes your LCC needs to act like 'real' company in order for the owners to preserve whatever liability protection might obtain from the LLC entity.

As far as selling the LLC so as to avoid sales tax I think that might work, but if the State finds out about it they are very likely to call it a shame transaction and attempt to recoup tax.

Elon Musk owns his Falcon 900 in his own name, and he's my hero.
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Jim,

Thanks for this. It's exactly what I was looking for -- including the information about Elon Musk owning his Falcon in his own name. I'm sure that Musk gets top-of-the-line legal and tax advice, so I was pleased to read that he owns his plane in the way that I thought best for a single-owner plane. I think that LLCs provide some advantages for multi-owner planes. If a plane is to be owned by more than one person, it's necessary to determine the actual cost of using an LLC (like the $800 annual tax in California, and the cost of keeping detailed financial records and preparing LLC tax returns), to see whether the LLC's benefits are worth that cost.

Again, thanks. Your answer has been a big help to me.

Lon
 
CTLSi said:
My aircraft is listed as an asset in an LLC with other assets. Since there is no income generated . . . , there is no tax issue other than registration and sales tax fees paid to own it.
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Thanks for your response. Two questions, if you'll let me:

1. Are the LLC's "other assets": aviation assets; something unrelated to the plane, like a non-income generating boat; or a business for which you use the airplane?

2. If none of the LLC's assets generates any income, do you file a Schedule C (or Form 1065) anyway, and if so, what does it say about income and expenses?

The CTLSi is a very nice plane. It is (as you've said in another post on this Message Board) a little more difficult to land than other LSAs. But it's comfortable and the visibility is terrific. Enjoy!
 
Is anyone using an LLC for it's perceived "liability protection" for a _personal_ aircraft?
 
John Yodice said at the AOPA summit what other lawyers have told me. A corporate entity can give some degree of liability protection for GA owners except the flying pilot.

So your sole member LLC is probably not going to help much if the sole member incurs some kind of liability while PIC.

Consult an aviation attorney for liability questions and a CPA or EA for tax issues.
 
B350ATP said:
What is good for Elon may not be good for someone else.

Billionaire Investor T Boone Pickets G550

Donald Trump 757

Just my thoughts
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Well . . . this is certainly interesting. You're absolutely right to say that what's good for one isn't necessarily good for others. I sure would like to hear why Musk did it one way while Pickens and Trump did it another.

How did you find the information about Pickens' and Trump's planes? I've done searches at the FAA site using names of people who I know own planes. But if they've put their planes in an entity of any kind, a search of their own names turns up blank.
 
dans2992 said:
Is anyone using an LLC for it's perceived "liability protection" for a _personal_ aircraft?
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I don't know. If your question is rhetorical, you're right. There isn't much a single-member LLC can do to protect its pilot-owner against liability for anything. But a multi-member LLC can protect members against personal liability for things that other members do. So maybe some multiple-ownership personal-use planes are put into LLCs for that reason.
 
I have a "co-owned" plane. Spoke to a lawyer and he said "don't bother with an LLC, it won't help, but I will take your money and set one up if you really want to."

Just curious if others have gotten the same advice.
 
I have heard theories that an LLC can shift your assets that you own yourself over to the LLC. Lets say that you, completely non-aviation related, run over grandma in your car. Grandma sues and an asset search reveals that you own a Global Express and a private airpark. Grandma's lawyer says "wow, we are onto something, lets crank it up a notch".

Etc. I have been told this, but I personally do not know if an LLC indeed can be used to "shield" yourself. Ultimately, somewhere, somehow, your LLC is linked back to you anyway, so who knows.

The scenario may (likely) be different if you own a construction company, and your trucks are registered/etc under an LLC. A driver, independent contractor, runs off the road and kills a family in a minivan. You, personally, are most likely not liable (although never, is anyone, "not sue-able") for damages. If truck is registered to your name, as an individual, you could be, depending on motor vehicle, etc laws etc etc.

Just some scenarios I have heard discussed, I do NOT claim any level of knowledge yeah or neah on the validity of these scenarios.

Again, speak to a lawyer/accountant
 
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LLC does not protect you from yourself, if you run over grandma, all you property except retirement accounts is fair game, and in some states your home. If you own a plane in an LLC, say a leaseback to a school, it crashes, then the LLC protects you because you weren't directly involved, the CFI and AP and Cessna could be liable. If you were found working on the plane however, then your LLC is broken since you are directly involved.



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teejayevans said:
LLC does not protect you from yourself, if you run over grandma, all you property except retirement accounts is fair game, and in some states your home. If you own a plane in an LLC, say a leaseback to a school, it crashes, then the LLC protects you because you weren't directly involved, the CFI and AP and Cessna could be liable. If you were found working on the plane however, then your LLC is broken since you are directly involved.



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Thank you for the info
 
Picking this thread back up to see if anyone has updated info on this or experience with this specific scenario:

Multi-partner LLC owns an aircraft for non-business use. No income being generated, and thus no expenses being written off. Elected to be treated as a 'Partnership" in the eyes of the IRS. What federal tax filing, if any is required? Only inflows are member contributions to cover expenses and engine reserve. Again, $0 gross income, $0 tax deductible expenses, $0 net income.

Thank you!




Lon33 said:
I'm trying to find out what, if anything, actually gets reported (in the real world) on tax returns filed by members of LLCs that own personal-use planes. By "personal use," I mean planes that are flown only for pleasure -- not for business -- so tax deductions are not taken for operating expenses or depreciation.

I know that a member of a single-member LLC is permitted to report the LLC's income and expenses on Schedule C of the member's personal Form 1040. And I know that the members of a multi-member LLC are expected to report the LLC's income and expenses on Form 1065. Virtually everything I've come across in my research has concerned LLCs that are in business, so they have (or hope to have) business income and deductible expenses. I have found very little about the reporting obligations of LLCs that own non-business personal-use property (and the little I have found concerned personal-use vacation homes, not airplanes).

If the LLC owns a personal-use airplane, it seems to me that there are three possible ways that tax returns can be handled, and my question boils down to: Which way is it actually done?:

1. The LLC's member(s) may not file tax returns at all, on the grounds that the LLC doesn't have any income or deductible expenses.

2. The LLC's member(s) may file a Form 1040 Schedule C or a Form 1065 that reports $0 income and $0 deductions, again on the grounds that the LLC doesn't have any income or deductible expenses.

3. The LLC's members(s) may file a Form 1040 Schedule C or Form 1065 that reports
- as income: the amount of money the member(s) have deposited into the LLC's bank account to pay for the plane's expenses; and
- as deductible expenses: the amount of money the LLC has spent on those expenses.

If #3 is what's actually done, I'm curious about how deposits for future maintenance and engine overhauls are accounted for. Are they reported as non-income capital contributions, or are they reported as current income and then offset by depreciation deductions?

I'm not looking for legal or accounting advice. I'm just trying to determine what's actually being done, by those who own planes in LLCs.
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dans2992 said:
I have a "co-owned" plane. Spoke to a lawyer and he said "don't bother with an LLC, it won't help, but I will take your money and set one up if you really want to."

Just curious if others have gotten the same advice.
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Identical advice from my lawyer. He said the annual cost in VA is ~1000, use that for liability insurance.
 
LLCs are State creations. The IRS doesn’t really recognize LLCs. To the IRS an LLC is just another name for a partnership. As such they don’t recognize single owner LLCs.
 
Thanks,I think that is correct. just trying to sort out if annual fed tax filing as a partnership is required since it is not entirely clear one way or the other given the specifics here.

Clip4 said:
LLCs are State creations. The IRS doesn’t really recognize LLCs. To the IRS an LLC is just another name for a partnership. As such they don’t recognize single owner LLCs.
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This is a two owner LLC. We won't elect to set it up as a Sub S or C corp, but as a "partnership" for tax filing purposes. That said, IRS says this:

Who Must File

Domestic Partnerships
Except as provided below, every domestic partnership must file Form 1065, unless it neither receives income nor incurs any expenditures treated as deductions or credits for federal income tax purposes.





Clip4 said:
LLCs are State creations. The IRS doesn’t really recognize LLCs. To the IRS an LLC is just another name for a partnership. As such they don’t recognize single owner LLCs.
Click to expand...
 
I know this is an old thread but I still think it's valuable. There are also some comments that don't necessarily tell the whole story:

- If you are a multi-member LLC, then you need to do a partnership tax return (1065 + K1's).
- Your LLC may not enjoy all the liability protection people think of when talking about LLC's but it sure does make management of the aircraft a lot easier. Structure with your Operating Agreement is super useful when needed to add/delete members.
- A buyer of your aircraft may enjoy sales tax protection if your aircraft is in an LLC because selling interest in the LLC won't trigger sales tax on the asset.

The general premise in this thread was "but it's just holding and not making income." If you do it right, then that's not true at all. In order to avoid the FAA Flight Department trap, your LLC needs to dry lease the aircraft back to the members as "individuals". Otherwise, the aircraft and pilot are coming from the same company. When you couple that with the money you most likely pay into the LLC (monthlies, hourlies), then you have an exchange of money + pilot and aircraft coming from the sale company and it's considered a P135 charter op by the FAA.

If you have dry leases setup with your pilots, then you avoid the P135 issue but now you're still collecting fees/income. This will generally be offset by all your maintenance and depreciation throughout the year.

Don't forget the dry lease agreements when setting up your LLC! AOPA has a great template you can follow.

Disclaimer: I'm no tax expert or lawyer, just do a lot of reading and talking to experts.
 
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