Little freaked on my lesson

[abqtj]

Yesterday was my second official flight lesson.

I did my first take off, wasn't pretty or coordinated, but got straightened out fairly quickly. Headed out to the practice area and did some turns and such. Then before we were heading back my instructor pulled the throttle to idle to simulate loss of power.

Got pretty nervous, but he was calm as can be the whole time. Talked through our procedures, pitched for desired airspeed, determined a landing spot, etc. Maneuvered to line up for the road we chose (after some discussion on him explaining why this one would be better than the one I chose initially). We kept descending as if to land, then once he felt like we were sure we could make it, put power back in and we climbed out of there.

Whole time I couldn't believe how well the plane can handle without power. Really demonstrates that planes don't just fall from the sky I guess.

After this, we headed back and did one touch and go then a landing. I took the second landing (my first also). Again, not pretty, but no parts left on the runway and the plane was in good shape when we parked it

 

[mscard88]

Early in your training. It will take a few hours until things start clicking. Did your CFI prebrief that he would be demonstrating a simulated forced landing? That would have possibly relaxed you a bit. But then again, as a newbie it does get your attention doesn't it, briefed or not. Keep flying!

 

[Somedudeintn]

Good lesson. Always be thinking about where to put the plane down if the engine quits. I'd lean toward a field over a road if I had the option.

 

[mscard88]

Really demonstrates that planes don't just fall from the sky I guess.

Not all planes. I witnessed an F-4 crash in Germany back in 1971. It didn't glide at all unless you consider straight down like a crowbar falling out of the sky gliding. Plus the crew had punched out.

 

[Ravioli]

And keep practicing picking suitable places for forced landings. Hopefully you'll never need one for real, but it's important. Sometimes those power lines are too close for comfort on that straight road lined up with the wind. Fields can be far less smooth than they appear from the sky. Airports can be "closer" than you think are generally preferable.

The best landing site may be BEHIND you. That one takes some time to get comfy with. Turn the plane around with no power? YES. When the prop stops, you're plane becomes a glider. They know how to fly.

Anyway, fun stuff. Enjoy!

 

[abqtj]

Didn't warn me ahead of time, yeah that might have eased it some for sure.

Not all planes. I witnessed an F-4 crash in Germany back in 1971. It didn't glide at all unless you consider straight down like a crowbar falling out of the sky gliding. Plus the crew had punched out.

You aren't helping!!!

 

[mscard88]

Didn't warn me ahead of time, yeah that might have eased it some for sure.



You aren't helping!!!

Accidents are a big part of aviation. It's what we learn from them that hopefully will prevent us from doing the same thing or crashing. BTW that F-4 crashed due to the backseater's (my football coach) knee board broke a clip off and it jammed the stick. Probably a .10 cent part back then took out a multimillion dollar fighter.

 

[RyanB]

Are you training at Bode out of Double Eagle?

The more you fly the more you'll be aware of what's taking place inside and outside the airplane. Keep us posted on the next one!

 

[abqtj]

Are you training at Bode out of Double Eagle?

The more you fly the more you'll be aware of what's taking place inside and outside the airplane. Keep us posted on the next one!

No, Del Sol. I really was trying to get out at Bode, but they were booked up when I first started inquiring, and quite honestly not very friendly/helpful in even wanting to get me a discovery flight. Double Eagle is way closer to my house and would have been more convenient, but not if I can't even get started at the flight school.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

If I remember right, it was 8-10 hours before I eased my unconscious death grip that would happen when asked to do something. By solo of course, you're always fine. Go up another half-dozen times and see if things change.

 

[MAKG1]

Not all planes. I witnessed an F-4 crash in Germany back in 1971. It didn't glide at all unless you consider straight down like a crowbar falling out of the sky gliding. Plus the crew had punched out.

If the crew punched out, the aircraft was not under control. Fighter jets are not stable on their own, by design. And you say the stick was jammed. OF COURSE it won't glide well.

Not relevant to a spam can or even airliner or bomber pilot. Don't scare the kid. Even a 767 can glide for a surprisingly long distance.

 

[midcap]

If the crew punched out, the aircraft was not under control. Fighter jets are not stable on their own, by design. And you say the stick was jammed. OF COURSE it won't glide well.

Not relevant to a spam can or even airliner or bomber pilot. Don't scare the kid. Even a 767 can glide for a surprisingly long distance.

I remember when my CFI got me to trim for best glide with the engine at idle....that 172 seemed like it was happy as a lark doing that. It's hard to describe it, but the plane just felt right, like the plane much preferred to be gliding than having the engine pull it around.

Now where I fly, there is an uber abundance of places to land as long as you like to land in either water or sugar cane.

 

[RyanB]

No, Del Sol. I really was trying to get out at Bode, but they were booked up when I first started inquiring, and quite honestly not very friendly/helpful in even wanting to get me a discovery flight. Double Eagle is way closer to my house and would have been more convenient, but not if I can't even get started at the flight school.

Gotcha, I did some 310 flying out of Double Eagle using Bode back in May. I'm not familiar with Del Sol, are they at ABQ?

 

[WannFly]

Thanks for sharing your experience OP. I am a new in training guy too and still getting used to turns and the whole concept of will this thing really fly?? guess it does pretty much on its own. looking forward to not having sweaty hands on the yoke and the throttle.. whenever that is and easing on the death grip. keep us posted. b/w you are already miles ahead of me, I have 5 hours and haven't taken off yet.. forget about landing

 

[RotorDude]

Not all planes. I witnessed an F-4 crash in Germany back in 1971. It didn't glide at all unless you consider straight down like a crowbar falling out of the sky gliding. Plus the crew had punched out.

I wonder what kind of crowbars you have. For me the 5:1 glide ratio of the F-4 is not bad at all, esp. when compared to the helicopters I have flown so far. Most of them are 4:1, so they "glide" (technically "autorotate") at least 20% steeper. And you get to feel very comfortable when you auto in a 5:1 heli after a lot of time in the 4:1 types (e.g. R-22). (Of course in a heli you auto/flare/hover to a standstill inches above the ground, so you can land on a literal postage stamp, not so much for the Phantom.)
OTOH, the gliders I fly are obviously much better, with over 20:1 for the worst one (which I have once soared for over 6.5 hours in pure thermals for my silver badge duration, so it's no slouch), and over 40:1 for the high performers.
OTTH (that's "third hand"), my power plane glides at 10:1, a nice happy median.
BTW, the space shuttle had a 4:1 ratio during approach and landing, and landed pretty nicely (albeit hot), for a "crowbar".

 

[abqtj]

Gotcha, I did some 310 flying out of Double Eagle using Bode back in May. I'm not familiar with Del Sol, are they at ABQ?

Yeah, out of ABQ. The nice thing being there (I think) is I'll get LOTS of ATC practice and experience once I'm done.

Thanks for sharing your experience OP. I am a new in training guy too and still getting used to turns and the whole concept of will this thing really fly?? guess it does pretty much on its own. looking forward to not having sweaty hands on the yoke and the throttle.. whenever that is and easing on the death grip. keep us posted. b/w you are already miles ahead of me, I have 5 hours and haven't taken off yet.. forget about landing

Good luck to you! I'm sure each lesson gets better and better.

 

[Jim Case]

Thanks for sharing your experience OP. I am a new in training guy too and still getting used to turns and the whole concept of will this thing really fly?? guess it does pretty much on its own. looking forward to not having sweaty hands on the yoke and the throttle.. whenever that is and easing on the death grip. keep us posted. b/w you are already miles ahead of me, I have 5 hours and haven't taken off yet.. forget about landing

I just got my private license 4 mouths ago and am a 21 year old baby it gets less frightening, every time you do it, by the time you start solo flying, you will be used to scanning for areas to land if it does happen. My instructor didn't tell me he was going to do it either, but you just need to remember. He/she knows what they are doing, and if you do goof badly enough,they will keep you safe. Now when you are flying over Lake Michigan, then maybe sweat a little bit if the engine fails

 

[exncsurfer]

Thanks for sharing your experience OP. I am a new in training guy too and still getting used to turns and the whole concept of will this thing really fly?? guess it does pretty much on its own. looking forward to not having sweaty hands on the yoke and the throttle.. whenever that is and easing on the death grip. keep us posted. b/w you are already miles ahead of me, I have 5 hours and haven't taken off yet.. forget about landing

Interesting, I thought takeoff would be worked into the first lesson or two. I wonder if you've spooked your cfi.

 

[mscard88]

I wonder what kind of crowbars you have. For me the 5:1 glide ratio of the F-4 is not bad at all, esp. when compared to the helicopters I have flown so far. Most of them are 4:1, so they "glide" (technically "autorotate") at least 20% steeper. And you get to feel very comfortable when you auto in a 5:1 heli after a lot of time in the 4:1 types (e.g. R-22). (Of course in a heli you auto/flare/hover to a standstill inches above the ground, so you can land on a literal postage stamp, not so much for the Phantom.)
OTOH, the gliders I fly are obviously much better, with over 20:1 for the worst one (which I have once soared for over 6.5 hours in pure thermals for my silver badge duration, so it's no slouch), and over 40:1 for the high performers.
OTTH (that's "third hand"), my power plane glides at 10:1, a nice happy median.
BTW, the space shuttle had a 4:1 ratio during approach and landing, and landed pretty nicely (albeit hot), for a "crowbar".

Not a AF or Navy/Marine pilot so I have no clue what the glide ratio of the F-4 is. 4:1 though is surprising to me, not doubting that at all, just surprising. When I was TDY for the controller strike to Quonset airport RI, the Army NG flew UH-1s there and we would actually run a pattern to a couple of old bunkers for their pinnacle landings I think they called them. And they would practice autorotations on the runway which was impressive, seems I recall them really pitching upward just before touch down, like a plane in the flare. That sound about right?

 

[mscard88]

Not relevant to a spam can or even airliner or bomber pilot. Don't scare the kid. Even a 767 can glide for a surprisingly long distance.

I don't think I scared him. Calm down.

 

[rtk11]

Just my opinion, but it seems early in the lesson plan to demonstrate an engine-loss situation. But it is a very meaningful lesson as you learned that the airplane will glide (i.e. not fall out of the sky) and hopefully that boosts confidence in the aircraft. And as others have stated, it's always a good to pick suitable landing locations in case of emergency. Sometimes the most suitable spot is under or behind you, so good to stay calm, fly the plane and make a decision on the best landing location.

 

[iamtheari]

An airplane needs three things to fly: Airspeed, airspeed, and airspeed.

If you remember that, every lesson you learn from power-out scenarios to slow flight to stalls to landings to perfecting your trimming technique ("I'm never not trimming." -- a CFI I flew with early on) will be easier. And you will later come to appreciate the early practice in identifying emergency landing spots. It forces you to look at that beautiful world you're flying over more often and, combined with knowing how to establish and trim for best glide, it eliminates the moments of panic that an unprepared pilot will waste when the engine does fail in flight someday. Those moments will instead go toward making a safe landing, contacting ATC or FSS to let them know where to send the rescue crews, and possibly getting the engine running again to get yourself to an airport, because you'll spend them flying the airplane instead of losing altitude while going in the wrong direction.

 

[RotorDude]

Not a AF or Navy/Marine pilot so I have no clue what the glide ratio of the F-4 is. 4:1 though is surprising to me, not doubting that at all, just surprising. When I was TDY for the controller strike to Quonset airport RI, the Army NG flew UH-1s there and we would actually run a pattern to a couple of old bunkers for their pinnacle landings I think they called them. And they would practice autorotations on the runway which was impressive, seems I recall them really pitching upward just before touch down, like a plane in the flare. That sound about right?

Yup. Here is a full-down auto in an R-22 (autorotation starts at 2:34). Note the "0-0" touchdown: zero forward speed, zero rate of descent.

 

[RotorDude]

An airplane needs three things to fly: Airspeed, airspeed, and airspeed.

That's incorrect, and the advice borders on being dangerous. What an airplane really needs is "angle of attack" always below the stall angle. You might have plenty of airspeed and stall, or virtually no airspeed and fly -- it all depends on your angle of attack. For example, if you make a very tight turn from base to final, you might have lots of speed but stall anyway (because your instinct would be to pull the yoke when you see the plane pitching down). And if you try to rush that turn with bottom rudder, you'll also spin.
OTOH, you might be flying very slowly at some point but if you pitch forward and keep your angle of attack low (i.e. "unload the wing"), you won't stall.
So bottom line, small angle of attack will keep you flying, not airspeed.

 

[RotorDude]

4:1 though is surprising to me, not doubting that at all, just surprising.

Not sure which 4:1 you mean. The Phantom glides at 5:1. The R-22 and space shuttle glide at 4:1.
You mention also that you saw "pinnacle landing": those are (normally) flown power-on, with plenty of power, and are often very steep (at a low rate of descent), all the way to pure vertical at the end. But that's unrelated to glide ratios.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Good lesson. Always be thinking about where to put the plane down if the engine quits. I'd lean toward a field over a road if I had the option.

Dang that is horrible advice, and a horrible way to have to fly.

I can't think of anything that takes the joy out of flying than it would to "always be thinking about where to put the plane down if the engine quits".

At this stage, he should be thinking about learning how to fly, what it looks like when straight and level. How turns look, etc. The last thing he needs to be looking at is which direction rows are in corn fields 3000 feet below him.

 

[iamtheari]

That's incorrect, and the advice borders on being dangerous. What an airplane really needs is "angle of attack" always below the stall angle. You might have plenty of airspeed and stall, or virtually no airspeed and fly -- it all depends on your angle of attack. For example, if you make a very tight turn from base to final, you might have lots of speed but stall anyway (because your instinct would be to pull the yoke when you see the plane pitching down). And if you try to rush that turn with bottom rudder, you'll also spin.
OTOH, you might be flying very slowly at some point but if you pitch forward and keep your angle of attack low (i.e. "unload the wing"), you won't stall.
So bottom line, small angle of attack will keep you flying, not airspeed.

I fully agree with RotorDude (and I'm thankful to him for giving a time reference to skip over the musical interlude in his previous link to the R-22 autorotation video). I was quoting a cliche that only holds true in certain flight conditions (coordinated flight without abrupt or unreasonably large control deflections--and I am here to learn so I will be quite happy to learn about any other flight conditions in which airspeed and angle of attack are not sufficiently related to use airspeed as an indication of whether the plane will fly or not).

Every pilot should learn about angle of attack, beyond knowing that on the private pilot written test the definition of an aerodynamic stall is that the wing has exceeded its critical angle of attack and that ice on the wing can change the critical angle of attack (leading to a stall at a lower angle of attack and generally a higher airspeed). But I do not think it's dangerous to know the cliches as long as one realizes their limited usefulness. Here, the cliche is useful because airspeed indicators are required for VFR day operations in all airplanes but AOA indicators are still exceedingly rare. When the engine quits, knowing that you can keep flying by simply establishing and trimming for best glide airspeed will keep you from panicking and, presuming you proceed to fly the airplane properly without exceeding the critical angle of attack of the wing, maintaining that airspeed is your best way to maximize safe landing options.

 

[Jim Case]

Dang that is horrible advice, and a horrible way to have to fly.

I can't think of anything that takes the joy out of flying than it would to "always be thinking about where to put the plane down if the engine quits".

At this stage, he should be thinking about learning how to fly, what it looks like when straight and level. How turns look, etc. The last thing he needs to be looking at is which direction rows are in corn fields 3000 feet below him.

I am by no means an overly experienced pilot, I just got my private a few months ago, so maybe my input isn't worth much here. but every instructor I've ever flown with, a total of three, Have told me to Always keep an eye out for a place to land in an emergency. I'd say that is good advice, i trust that my instructors were teaching me good habits.

 

[WannFly]

I wish AOA indicators was there on every plane. I saw an ad for Icon where the pilot pretty much flies looking at the AOA and not care much about other avionics. now that may be overstating it, but takes the guessing game out of the picture.

 

[RotorDude]

I was quoting a cliche that only holds true in certain flight conditions (coordinated flight without abrupt or unreasonably large control deflections)

Sorry, but incorrect again. Even if you are perfectly coordinated, do nothing abruptly, and have lots of speed (e.g. on that infamous base-to-final turn) you may still stall if you bank too steeply and hold pitch. Why? Because you exceeded the maximum angle of attack. So instead of focusing on speed, think "angle of attack". You won't stall if you keep it below the stalling angle, under any flight condition.

 

[ircphoenix]

I wish AOA indicators was there on every plane. I saw an ad for Icon where the pilot pretty much flies looking at the AOA and not care much about other avionics. now that may be overstating it, but takes the guessing game out of the picture.

When you get to practicing stalls, especially power on stalls, you'll be SHOCKED at how far you have to take it before a plane like a 172 or 140 will stall on you. The 172 will hang on the prop for a while before it actually breaks.

 

[ircphoenix]

Yup. Here is a full-down auto in an R-22 (autorotation starts at 2:34). Note the "0-0" touchdown: zero forward speed, zero rate of descent.

What are they doing when an airplane is equipped with skids and they're doing it on the runway? Is that just a way to land on a solid (paved) surface and translate the vertical energy to horizontal motion?

 

[JoseCuervo]

I am by no means an overly experienced pilot, I just got my private a few months ago, so maybe my input isn't worth much here. but every instructor I've ever flown with, a total of three, Have told me to Always keep an eye out for a place to land in an emergency. I'd say that is good advice, i trust that my instructors were teaching me good habits.

Next time you fly with one of those 3 instructors, ask them if they give Instrument instruction. Ask them what they advise their instrument students to do to "keep an eye out for a place to land in an emergency".

See if they have a different set of instructions for their private students and their instrument students, and, ask them what they do to the engines on the Instrument planes to make the differing instructions logical.


(But, to your point, good on you for following your instructor's advice, during training, and after training. And, that is what the OP should do, follow his instructor's advice. Even if it is debatable in value, a low-time student isn't smart enough to know what else to think, and, needs to be following instructions.

I have flown with 2 different Reno air racers on BFR's, and a couple of different Ag pilots, and then flown a fair amount of backcountry. I can assure you the instruction I have received from some pretty talented pilots is not to "keep an eye out for a place to land in an emergency" all the time.)

 

[RotorDude]

What are they doing when an airplane is equipped with skids and they're doing it on the runway? Is that just a way to land on a solid (paved) surface and translate the vertical energy to horizontal motion?

In a properly executed autorotation landing, the final touchdown has no (or minimal) vertical and horizontal energy. So you could land on almost any type of surface (even water when float-equipped). Obviously it's very easy to mess up, esp. since most pilots have very limited experience (or proficiency) in actually performing "touchdown autos".
Virtually all smaller helis land on skids (no wheels), which means that if they do land with forward energy after a power-off auto, they need to dissipate it by sliding forward. In fact, if the density altitude is high, they might need to slide forward on the skids even under maximum allowed power (that maneuver is practiced quite a bit and not that hard), for both landing and takeoff. Obviously doing this on a non-paved surface can be "problematic".

 

[Jim Case]

Next time you fly with one of those 3 instructors, ask them if they give Instrument instruction. Ask them what they advise their instrument students to do to "keep an eye out for a place to land in an emergency".

See if they have a different set of instructions for their private students and their instrument students, and, ask them what they do to the engines on the Instrument planes to make the differing instructions logical.


(But, to your point, good on you for following your instructor's advice, during training, and after training. And, that is what the OP should do, follow his instructor's advice. Even if it is debatable in value, a low-time student isn't EXPERIENCED enough to know what else to think, and, needs to be following instructions.

I have flown with 2 different Reno air racers on BFR's, and a couple of different Ag pilots, and then flown a fair amount of backcountry. I can assure you the instruction I have received from some pretty talented pilots is not to "keep an eye out for a place to land in an emergency" all the time.)

They all do instrument ratings, if that's what you are referring to, and they are all also career pilots. I trust them. It's not that they told me to glue my eyes to the ground and off the flight instruments, just take a glance every few minutes

 

[WannFly]

Sorry, but incorrect again. Even if you are perfectly coordinated, do nothing abruptly, and have lots of speed (e.g. on that infamous base-to-final turn) you may still stall if you bank too steeply and hold pitch. Why? Because you exceeded the maximum angle of attack. So instead of focusing on speed, think "angle of attack". You won't stall if you keep it below the stalling angle, under any flight condition.

so how do you actually measure the AOA? I am not up for stall training yet, but from what I read, at certain weight and airspeed too much bank or pitch will let you cross the Critical AOA. do you just guess it and the guess becomes more and more accurate as you fly? or is there a scientific way of measuring it (without an AOA indicator)

 

[RotorDude]

They all do instrument ratings, if that's what you are referring to, and they are all also career pilots. I trust them.

I think Jose was focusing on CFII's, not "instrument rated CFI's") and was curious to know if they tell their instrument students to "constantly keep an eye outside for an emergency landing spot if the engine quits".

 

[WannFly]

When you get to practicing stalls, especially power on stalls, you'll be SHOCKED at how far you have to take it before a plane like a 172 or 140 will stall on you. The 172 will hang on the prop for a while before it actually breaks.

that's what I hear, not up for stall yet and to be very honest not looking forward to it, but I know I have to cross that bridge...

 

[Skip Miller]

I wish AOA indicators was there on every plane. I saw an ad for Icon where the pilot pretty much flies looking at the AOA and not care much about other avionics. now that may be overstating it, but takes the guessing game out of the picture.

What guessing game? A VFR Pilot should have his eyes outside for the majority of his/her time. Your objective while a student is to learn to sense an approaching stall by the feel and sound of the plane so that there is no guessing game! -Skip

 

[Jim Case]

I think Jose was focusing on CFII's, not "instrument rated CFI's") and was curious to know if they tell their instrument students to "constantly keep an eye outside for an emergency landing spot if the engine quits".

Oh, in that case I would need to inquire with them about this, good point RotorDude.